Yes Sayers & No Sayers

Rob Bell:
Welcome to Sketchplanations The Podcast.

I'm engineer and broadcaster Rob Bell.

Hello.

That's designer and creator of Sketchplanations, Jono Hey.

Jono Hey:
Hello.

Rob Bell:
And this is inventor and past winner of The Apprentice, Tom Pellereau.

Tom Pellereau:
Who's that?

Rob Bell:
Every fortnight, we select and discuss one of Jono's many sketches found at sketchplanations.com that seek to explain the world, one sketch at a time.

This week, from out of the Sketchplanations vault, we've picked the sketch entitled Yes Sayers and No Sayers.

Intriguing.

Which are you?

Is one better than the other?

Does it depend on factors?

Brackets general.

You should be able to see the sketch as the artwork for the episode on your podcast players now, and I'll include a link to it in the show notes down below so you can see it in its full glory at sketchplanations.com.

And if you want to correspond with us about this or any of the topics we cover in the series, please send your emails to hello at sketchplanations.com.

Thank you, Tommy.

Right then, Jono.

Yes sayers and no sayers, as in people who tend to say yes and people who tend to say no, right?

Jono Hey:
Yeah, maybe there should be some hyphens in there.

I'm not sure.

But yeah, it's talking about types of people or times when you might be a yes sayer and times you might be a no sayer.

Rob Bell:
Lovely.

Jono Hey:
And the sketch is really simple.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, good.

Come on, talk us through the sketch, Jono.

Jono Hey:
And it comes from a quote or a bit of wisdom from Keith Johnston, who's a really well-respected improviser and sort of expert in that field.

And the sketch says yes sayers are rewarded by adventure and no sayers are rewarded by safety.

And so on the left, I've got somebody who's having a rather exciting time going down some rapids, but kind of loving it.

Rob Bell:
Having said yes.

Jono Hey:
Who said yes.

Yeah, sorry.

And then on the right, we've got somebody who said no, who's really enjoying being sat in a chair, reading a book with a picture on the wall of a person in a kayak going down a river, but not doing it themselves and they're rewarded by safety.

We can come to exactly what the quote is and why I did it.

But that's what the that's what the sketch is about.

Rob Bell:
So what I find really interesting about this and when you start to read into it a bit more from your kind of semi-article that follows the sketch is what almost what?

Yeah, by definition, you know, I definitely see one as positive and the other as negative.

Yes and no, right?

But I feel it in more ways than just the semantics of the words, not just yes is positive, no is negative.

I mean, my instinctive reaction about yes-sayers and no-sayers, which I hasten to add is not necessarily correct, but my instinctive reaction is about attitude to life and society generally.

And the way I feel it is that yes-sayers is good and no-sayers is bad.

But, and this is what's so great about getting into it in the podcast, that is not what's being proposed and explained in your sketch.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, and it's actually exactly why I thought it was an interesting one to sketch.

And funnily enough, you know what?

I did this sketch and then I was a bit wary of publishing it.

And so I let it sit for quite a long time before I decided to do it.

Because, well, for several reasons, but like because it, and I've had this with a couple of others where people feel like I'm judging them.

Rob Bell:
Yep, I get it.

Jono Hey:
And there are different ways to live life and I'm not meaning to judge anybody.

And I'm not trying to say this one is better or worse.

And actually, that's what I really liked about this because I think I've generally lived my life or most of it with a sort of implicit, like yes is the way to go that I ought to say yes.

And things will be better if I say yes.

And I should say yes.

And what I really liked about Keith Johnston's framing here was that there are clear rewards for both ways.

And so instead of it being like on the yes side, there's benefits and on the no side, there's loss.

Actually, there's benefits on yes and there's benefits on no.

And if you say yes a lot, you're going to be in new situations and you're going to have adventures, let's call them.

And if you say no, you're going to be rewarded by that safety.

And that's going to feel really good, too.

And so, I think that for me, because I think whenever you see things about like a growth mindset and things like that, there's always this thing, well, you should have a growth mindset.

Yeah.

And you shouldn't sit around, say no to things.

And here you say, well, actually, in improv, you want people to say yes.

But actually, there's really good reasons why you would say no and you're rewarded by the safety.

And so, A, I felt like people would feel like I might be judging them where I wasn't.

But B, I really like this framing where actually it's really logical to have both.

Rob Bell:
Tommy, do you think Jono is being pretty judgmental with this sketch?

It feels that way.

Tom Pellereau:
Well, if there's one thing about Jono.

Jono Hey:
I'm judging myself.

Tom Pellereau:
Oh, bless him.

He's just there kind of wondering about what people are going to think about this.

When he's put it in such an incredibly positive light.

Yeah, the three of us would largely say that we are kind of yes sayers.

Or certainly when we met, we were saying yes to everything when you're at union at that age, and you're just trying out all the adventures.

And society, I think, is slightly negative towards sort of no sayers.

But at the same time, this is what's lovely about this, as you've just said, is the fact that it's saying that no, to be saying no is just you enjoy safety and you enjoy the predictability of it.

And some people, that's exactly what they want from life.

Or some instances, that's exactly what you want from life.

And certainly I've found as I'm getting older, especially as parenting comes along, you are saying no to more things, which Jono, I'm sure you've experienced.

But also having that kind of yes saying is very nice and where I spent most of my life, certainly.

Rob Bell:
Wouldn't everybody like to think of themselves as a yes sayer?

I don't just say that flippantly, that is a genuine question.

Because, as you said, Tommy, society tends to look more favorably in a very general sense on what we deem as yes sayers.

I feel like the majority of my friends and my close network are yes sayers.

In fact, there's some, actually, I'm really trying to think of somebody who I know well who's a no sayer.

And I've just thought of someone, actually.

I won't say who it is, it's just not fair.

But there's someone very, very close to me.

And they are much more typically a no sayer.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

Rob Bell:
I don't know how much more I want to say about that, because it's very personal, isn't it?

Whereas, but this is it.

This is what we're talking about.

Maybe this is what we're trying to reframe.

I'm sitting here going, oh, I don't want to call them a no sayer.

What we're saying through this sketch and through this notion of yes sayers and no sayers, is that we shouldn't look disfavorably upon a no sayer.

We should celebrate the fact that they have, it's a decision.

It's a chosen the benefit of comfort and security.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

I think you can also be, it's not like there are two types of people in this world, yes sayers and no sayers.

You can say yes at times and you can say no at times for different reasons.

They can both feel good as a result for different reasons.

Rob Bell:
Yes.

Jono Hey:
As I think more about this, so like improvisation is famous for this.

If it's successful, you have a yes and attitude.

You're accepting ideas all the time.

So something's coming and you roll with it and you take it to the next place and you don't want somebody, it doesn't work very well in improv.

If somebody's bringing ideas to the table and somebody's just shutting them down all the time, I'm not going to stay here, nothing happens, right?

But in life, I was thinking, we spend our lives improvising, which is I think why there's a lot of lessons in improv for life.

But I think with no saying it's interesting because I think the no saying can also just be about being really happy with what you've got and really happy with where you are and not feeling like you're missing out and you should be doing something else.

And that's just a really good way to be.

And I feel like much of my life is felt with that, I don't know whether it's cultural or whether I put it on myself, but with this sort of implicit thing that I probably, right now I could be out doing things.

I could have said this, I could have joined these people doing this fun thing.

Why am I not doing that?

And not enjoying where I am as a result or forcing myself to go out and say yes.

And actually, I think it's really healthy to be able to say, you know what, I'm not going to do that and I'm really happy about it.

And I spent most of my life thinking about FOMO, like the fear of missing out, which is what leads me to say yes so many times.

Rob Bell:
And so now the flip side of that, and I don't know how much I enjoy using this, is JOMO, the joy of missing out.

Tom Pellereau:
Have you just made that up?

Rob Bell:
No, I haven't.

I promise you I haven't.

And any younger listeners would be able to verify that.

Tom Pellereau:
Really?

Are we showing our age by having never heard of that before?

Rob Bell:
We possibly are showing our age because I feel like JOMO probably comes with age.

Tom Pellereau:
So we're showing our lack of age.

I prefer that.

Rob Bell:
Well I'd say that there are certain areas where I feel I can relish in the positive decision of saying no, where I've decided in a very positive way for me to say no, I'm not going to do that, I'm not going to join you on that, I'm not going to participate in that because I think I'll have a better time not doing it.

Yeah.

There's one example, I think I've probably brought it up a couple of times.

The darts.

The darts.

F'ing darts.

It keeps coming back to bite me on the B.

I just didn't want to go.

Jono Hey:
But you'll hear about it for the rest of your life.

Rob Bell:
Yes, I will keep hearing about it and how stubborn I am.

But that's fine.

Tom Pellereau:
Because you once said no to something.

Rob Bell:
Because I once said no to something because I know myself well enough to go, I don't think I'll get any enjoyment out of that.

And I had the joy on the day of not being there.

Jono Hey:
To be clear, this was a lot of people were going to the darts and you said, no, I'm not going to go to the darts.

Rob Bell:
I'm not going to join you on this occasion.

I don't feel like I'll enjoy it very much.

And obviously, I am one of Britain's most renowned hashtag top lads.

And I want to get involved.

But on that occasion, I just didn't want to.

But there are there are a number of things.

I was thinking about this.

Where are the areas where I feel that I have more of a no attitude?

Jono Hey:
Yeah, go on.

Rob Bell:
So one's the darts.

But secondly, It's very specific.

Yeah, it's very specific.

Another area is travel.

Jono Hey:
Oh yeah.

Rob Bell:
I feel quite vehemently that I do not want to travel to certain areas of the world because I think I know myself well enough to say that I'd find it hard and not that enjoyable.

And I don't mind things that are hard and not that enjoyable because as we talked about on the podcast for Type 2 Fun, I get so much reward from when you're having to work and graph and stuff.

But I don't like really busy, busy places.

I don't like really, really hot, hot places.

Festivals, massive hard no from me.

Not interested.

I don't get any joy from it.

Tom Pellereau:
It's brilliant.

I hope we spend the rest of the hour just going through Rob's hard no.

Rob Bell:
I couldn't think up that many more, but I feel like they're really good examples for me where I feel it's a really positive decision and very strongly.

Jono Hey:
No, in some cases, like a night out, you might hear that people had a great time and you might go, oh, I wish I'd done that because I've got a few who came to mind were a bit like that for me where I sort of turned in early.

I'm not I'm going to turn in to be like you in the dark.

And then people go on with it.

Oh, what an amazing night that was.

And you you're like, you weren't there.

Yeah.

But and you're like, God damn it.

You'll never get that opportunity again.

But festivals is so there you talk about it.

Like people might say what a great time they are having at a festival.

And you're like, that's great.

I'm glad you're having a good time at the festival.

Rob Bell:
Absolutely.

Jono Hey:
But not for me.

Rob Bell:
Yep.

You you go knock yourselves out.

That'd be great.

I just want you to have a good time, but I don't want to be anywhere near it.

I'm a grumpy guy.

When I was thinking about this earlier, they were really clear examples for me where I feel very happy saying no because of the comfort that affords me in those situations, which is exactly what your sketch portrays.

Jono Hey:
What about like, they're more like internal, yes, says, no, saying decisions.

So if you're like a mixer or a networking event, I feel like I probably ought to go and meet some people.

Rob Bell:
Yes.

Jono Hey:
And yet I know that it's a bit easier to like make up some excuse and go, oh, I should just check my phone or I should go to the bathroom or I could grab a drink or I'll step outside for a minute and then you miss this opportunity.

And I think like I would be very comfortable doing all of those things.

I'd be less comfortable just walking up and introducing myself.

But I probably feel good if I do it.

And so that's one where I'm always like, I want to say no and be in the safe.

And I try and force myself to say yes.

Do you guys have that?

Rob Bell:
Yes.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, I have that a lot.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, definitely.

So what's that?

Well, that no, but that that is then being a yes.

It depends ultimately what your actions are.

Jono Hey:
I do.

I do.

Rob Bell:
Because because the yes, sometimes it's an easy yes, because your your body and your your soul and your emotions just have this compulsion to be yes, I want to go and do that.

Other yeses are more difficult and they're the ones that perhaps you get a bit more reward from because it's yeah, I'm getting out of my comfort zone to go and do this.

But I'm saying yes to it.

Jono Hey:
Well, funnily enough, I feel like sometimes that is harder for me than the adrenaline sort of activities like should we do a skydive?

Like a lot of people say no to do something like that.

And clearly, if you say no, you don't have to stress about doing a skydive.

But if you say yes, you get all the adventure of a skydive and the nerves, but also maybe the excitement.

And I feel like in those sort of things, I find it much easier to push myself towards a yes than in a way I do in the social occasions.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, that's interesting.

Okay.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, me too.

If it's sort of adventure related, it's very easy to say yes to.

But I didn't think about the skydive we did because, Robbie, were you there when we did that skydive in America?

And we just really flippant and it just happened because we weren't going to do it.

And then it was suddenly like, oh, we could do it.

Like this afternoon, I was like, what?

Oh yeah, cool.

Let's do it.

And it wasn't until we got up to the top of the plane, the sky starts shuffling over to the edge.

It was like, oh my gosh, why did I sign up to this?

And then you jump and it's really, really cool.

And it was an incredible view across South California.

But yeah, I find it much easier to say yes to things like that.

And I would rather often say no to social, some social things.

I recently went out and we went to a friend's house and there was another couple there, but it was just the wife.

And it transpired that the husband doesn't really come out to those sort of things.

And I was sort of like, oh, okay.

And I thought about it.

I was like, I didn't actually realize that was allowed, if you know what I mean.

I was like, he's kind of quite jealous for a second.

Rob Bell:
I was like, so hang on, he's at home having a beer with his feet up watching the telly.

Tom Pellereau:
Oh, without the children, very nice.

I'm like, well, okay.

I must try that.

I would never get away with it.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, let's know how that goes Tommy.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
After this episode, Tom's saying no to everything settled in at home.

Happy as Larry.

Rob Bell:
I wonder if one of the differences, you know, you're making a comparison there between saying yes to a physical adrenaline type activity versus the difficulty of saying yes to a social occasion.

A social activity.

Is that about the consequences?

If the physical adventure seeking goes wrong, it's death.

You don't have to deal with it.

If the social thing goes wrong, you've got the social awkwardness of it, which we covered in a podcast very recently.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, which is which is far worse than death.

Rob Bell:
Well, there you would go.

Is that is that it?

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, it's true.

Far worse than death.

Rob Bell:
Oh dear, shouldn't joke, shouldn't joke about it.

Jono Hey:
I was thinking back to the podcast episode we did with Brendan Leonard of Semi-Rad.

And we did about, I think it was Finishing Lines.

Rob Bell:
Yes, it was.

Jono Hey:
Get you over the start line.

I don't know if he exactly said it, but it reminded me, as I was thinking about this, the sort of thing he would say, he was, you know, that he felt you feel like in some vague way that forcing yourself to do things that you don't feel comfortable doing is going to improve you somehow.

Rob Bell:
Yes, it's righteous.

It's worthy.

Jono Hey:
Make you a better person.

Rob Bell:
Yes.

Jono Hey:
If I go and introduce myself to all these groups, I will be a better, stronger person afterwards.

And I don't know if this is true or not.

Rob Bell:
But I subscribe to that way of thinking.

Don't you both?

Jono Hey:
Yeah, but I don't know where it came from.

Rob Bell:
No, I haven't got any rhyme or reason behind that.

Tom Pellereau:
It's just a modern society impressing us, honest.

I just feel like I should.

Yeah, but I should do this.

Jono Hey:
I should do that.

Rob Bell:
I should.

Tom Pellereau:
And usually it is worth doing pretty much always.

Rob Bell:
It is.

So I stick by it.

I don't understand it, but I enjoy it.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

And usually, Tom, to your point there, like usually when you say yes to something that you were worried about, it's usually not as bad as you were thinking it was going to be.

But that said, we all have these moments from childhood or whatever, which are probably still haunting us.

Causing us to say no.

Tom Pellereau:
I will say that.

I think saying yes to things is often more hard work than no.

The family and I, Sarah and I, we do a lot of trips in the campervan.

We go away a lot.

We take the kids to all around the country, all around Europe.

We take them skiing.

We take them there.

It's pretty hard work.

It's very hard work.

We're going to Croatia this summer.

Rob Bell:
In the van?

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, it's about 20 hours of driving both ways.

And the kids do love it because they sleep in the back or they spend time on their iPads.

And occasionally we get back and I kind of go, did I actually see the kids on this trip or was I just sitting in the front driving them?

But it is quite hard work saying yes, I will say that.

It usually is worth it.

Jono Hey:
But you keep doing this, keep doing this.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, because you forget when you get back how much hard work it was.

All you remember is the photos that were amazing.

Rob Bell:
I was wondering about careers, when it comes to career.

I feel that there is an assumption that saying yes will help lead to success, but I reckon you could probably find biographies of, you know, so-called highly functioning, successful people who have both put their success down to being yes-sayers.

I bet you could also find people who put their success down to being no-sayers in the kind of assertiveness type way and that that has what's brought them their success.

What do you think?

If I were to ask you in your career or in one's career generally, should you be a yes-sayer or a no-sayer?

I feel the obvious answer is yes, right?

Tom Pellereau:
I think it changes and I am starting to learn, certainly in business, actually one of the most important things for us to do is to say no to an increasing amount of things.

Rob Bell:
Right, okay, good.

Tom Pellereau:
One of the most difficult things, at the moment, we are just planning our next round of new products for next year.

One of the most difficult things is deciding which ones to not do.

But I now know that that's really important.

It's horrible.

It's definitely one of the worst things because I want to do everything.

But you can't do everything if you just can't do everything.

Jono Hey:
Rob, to your question, in terms of reading, I think generally you read stories of people who said yes to things because they become adventures and that's sort of interesting to read.

So you probably are fewer stories of people who said, no, I'm not going to start this company.

You just don't read those.

Even if they had very happy, successful lives, they just don't get made into books so much.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, good point.

Jono Hey:
And your career is not a controlled experiment ever.

So if an opportunity comes your way and you said yes or you said no, you never know what would have actually happened if you'd have done the opposite.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, some really good point, Jono.

Yeah.

Jono Hey:
So I just think it's really difficult to tell.

You know, like if you look at a successful person, you might think it's because they said yes to this, but who knows?

Maybe, you know, it's always this thing like other people said yes to stuff, and it didn't work out for them, but you didn't hear from them.

So I always think it's difficult to say, you know, difficult to tell.

And there's obviously like a lot of luck involved.

You know, I've been involved in a couple of startups, which clearly I could have said no to, because startups are generally sort of seen as risky, but they've worked out pretty well for me.

But, you know, who knows if I've done a few more of maybe it was just luck that they've worked out okay.

So I just think it's really difficult to tell.

And those are the macro decisions of UKURA.

And then Tom, to your point, I was thinking also in terms of focus, you know, like obviously Keith Johnston was talking in the realm of improv.

Yeah.

And generally, I do think there's something about like, it's nice to be with people who are willing to take ideas and expand on them rather than shut stuff down.

Yeah.

And if you want to do your very best work, you really do need to focus.

And I think that's really important.

And Tom, to your point about saying no to a lot of things, there was a really nice quote I saw from Johnny Ives again recently about what focus means.

Rob Bell:
Hang on, Johnny Ives.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, sorry, Johnny Ives was the design of Sarah Apple through their sort of iMac and iPod and iPhone days.

So one of the most successful designers ever, to be honest.

He basically said he was driven a bit crazy about what people said about Steve Jobs because he was rude or whatever because they just weren't with him.

He said he was just tremendously focused.

So Johnny said, what focus means is say no to something that with every bone in your body, you think is a phenomenal idea and you wake up thinking about it, but you say no to it because you're focused on something else that's more important.

That's where you want to get done.

And I think that's really hard to do in your life.

Like in some ways in business and that it's easy to say, yes, that's exciting.

Let's say yes.

And then you're doing too many things.

You don't do any of them very well.

Part of the key of business is saying no, so you can do the things that are really important.

So yeah, I don't think there's a straight answer to, is yes or no good in your career or business particularly.

But it's an interesting one to think about.

Tom Pellereau:
I think there is probably a surprising correlation in the fact that most people think that to be successful, you've got to say yes and you've got to take the risks and you've got to do the things.

But I think Rob, certainly Lord Sugar is quite know about things more than maybe I think people might expect.

I don't know if that's because he's sort of in his 70s as he were.

But my experience with him is being him saying no to either me doing things or to things happening.

And I probably wasn't necessarily expecting that from such a successful person.

But it is probably an incredibly powerful tool to know what you want to do and be really focused and say no to things.

So that's not particularly helpful for our listeners because we're saying you should definitely say yes and you should definitely say no.

And it's all contextual.

So good luck with your own journeys.

Jono Hey:
That's why I did the sketch.

Rob Bell:
I think that's great.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

Rob Bell:
And I think it's really important to highlight some of these benefits of the no saying.

It can protect your time and your energy and your mental well-being in certain cases as well.

It can help you avoid burnout, allow you the focus that we're talking about as well as maybe assertiveness as well.

I mean, great, great benefits, great benefits to no saying.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, I'm thinking maybe I didn't really do justice in the picture.

You have to sort of choose a scenario if you're going to draw a picture.

Rob Bell:
But like don't beat yourself up about the sketch, because it fits the quote perfectly about providing adventure and about providing safety.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, it does.

Rob Bell:
So there's that.

But adventure obviously can be interpreted in many, many different ways.

I have to say that it's much more fun hanging out with a yes-sayer than a no-sayer.

Right?

Jono Hey:
Yeah, I think that's true.

Rob Bell:
Because of adventure, because there's adventure.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, yeah, interesting things happen.

And also, you're sort of embraced and you feel heard.

You know, you put something out there and they respond to it.

And that's kind of the essence of improv.

And actually where I, you know, I found this quote in this book, Improv Wisdom, from Patricia Ryan Madson.

And around that area, she also talks about generally speaking, improv people are nice people to be around.

Rob Bell:
Right, good, yeah.

Jono Hey:
Because they've been honing their ability to say yes, and accept the unknown, and walk into something that they don't know.

And that's quite fun.

Yeah, so yeah, yeah, I think you're probably right.

Tom Pellereau:
I would agree, Rob, that it is a lot of fun being around people who say yes, and are very kind of active and out, and adventurous and want to kind of make things happen.

I also might say that it can be quite exhausting being around those kind of people, in the fact that they do create a lot of stuff that has to be done.

Yeah.

I think of some of my team who, when I say kind of yes to things, or we do this, they're like, oh my god, what have we signed up to?

Okay, we've agreed to do that.

We're now going into Italy on QVC.

Like, what?

Rob Bell:
I concur with that, Tommy.

I have one friend who springs to mind, and some of the situations he gets himself into with his work, with his personal travels, just in life generally, they're always really entertaining to hear about because he's just saying yes, and he's just after adventure all the time.

And I think it's because he has what I term as a really true yes mentality.

Now, it is a bit too outside the comfort zone for me to do on my own, but when I'm with him, I love it, and I love where it might take us, but I'm not living that the whole time.

And, you know, to your point, again, Tommy, whenever you do meet him, he is 99% of the time late because he's also said yes to about 100 other things that day or that evening that he's going along to.

I mean, it's great, I love it, I love him, but I couldn't do it.

I like the security of not being told off, you know, you can't do that, or I like the security of being where I said I'd be, and I like the security of not getting to bed too late, you know, so, but every now and then it's just wonderful, and to hear the stories.

Tom Pellereau:
And not feeling too hung over the following day.

Rob Bell:
Exactly, or too tired, and to hear the stories about it is continuous adventures, they're just brilliant, they're amazing, I love it.

Jono Hey:
When you say no, to help yourself feel really good about that decision is to do another one, which we haven't discussed in the podcast, but the Kurt Vonnegut advice of essentially Notice When You're Happy, wake up in the morning, bright and early, without a hangover or whatever, you know, in your own bed, feeling great, and go, isn't this nice?

Because I might have been completely the opposite.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, Jono, there was a handful of New Year's days where I have gone on lovely walks out in the countryside with your family, because neither of us went out large the like before, and the amount of smugness I'm carrying around with me is unbearable, unbearable.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, you're really, really revel in it.

Rob Bell:
Oh, completely.

Jono Hey:
I'm reveling in the, that now I wasn't out last night.

Rob Bell:
I'm really revel in telling those who were later on that day, when you say, Oh, no, oh, you're only just, oh, I've been up.

Sucking in some lovely country air, stretching the legs.

To have this new year, this new opportunity ahead of us.

I was saying yes by saying no.

Jono Hey:
It wouldn't be, yeah, that's exactly it.

I had another one, though, I was thinking food is one of those ones, which is like a yes or a no.

Like, yeah, I'm gonna try new stuff.

Rob Bell:
All right, yeah.

Go on, let's talk about that.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

Rob Bell:
Where are you with that?

Jono Hey:
Generally, I'm pretty good with trying stuff.

Rob Bell:
What is good?

Jono Hey:
Mostly because of my mindset is kind of like, well, some people just eat this all the time, so it can't be that bad.

I mean, it's probably gonna be really nice if some people eat this all the time, but it always surprises me still how many people say no to, I don't know, a local delicacy or something like that.

I guess it's of the fear of the unknown and the reward of the safety.

But there was definitely one where I look back and I think, oh, I should have said yes.

And I said, no, we're in Cambodia.

And Cambodia went through some really tough times.

And basically people would eat anything they could get their hands on.

And they had a ready supply of tarantulas.

Rob Bell:
And, you know, that were bread for food.

Jono Hey:
No, you would like try and find anything that you could eat in the environment.

And they had tarantulas, which are, you know, quite chunky and about meaty.

And so I knew that that did happen.

And we stopped on some coach at some little food place for a rest stop on a journey.

And there was this big tray of fried tarantulas.

And I remember I couldn't get myself to say yes, to try them.

Except that to this day, you know, I've literally have never seen a fried tarantula ever again, except for this place in rural Carambola.

I may never see one again, and I'll never know.

And maybe that's fine.

But I do sometimes think I should have said yes, people are probably listening to this going no, I don't need to say that.

But I don't know, when am I also going to try one?

So it comes back to me as a regret, actually, that one where I said no.

Rob Bell:
And would it make for a better story, to your point, that, you know, where the adventures are, the successful people don't write books by saying no, because there's not much to tell.

Jono Hey:
Well, at least I got to tell a story about not trying.

Rob Bell:
See, it is doable.

Jono Hey:
Never thought I'd pull that off.

Tom Pellereau:
It is doable.

Jono Hey:
The joys of a podcast.

Rob Bell:
There is one character who epitomises a yes-sayer.

That is Danny Wallace, the comedian Danny Wallace, who wrote the book Yes Man, which was then later made into a film with Jim Carrey, I think it was.

I read that because I like Danny Wallace.

I like the kind of silly boys project stuff that Danny Wallace and Dave Gorman do.

I think they used to be flatmates, which is no massive surprise.

So if anyone doesn't know the premise of Yes Man, Danny was feeling a bit stuck in life, a bit bored, uninspired, stuck in a rut, all those cliches.

And on a bus, he ended up chatting to a stranger who advised him to say yes to more things.

And so it sparked the idea for an experiment to say yes to everything.

And so Danny committed to say yes to everything.

I think I think he ended up doing it for six months.

And so he starts agreeing to go for coffees, to go to parties, events he normally avoided, having been stuck in a bit of a rut.

And, you know, these yeses quickly lead up to more unpredictable and uncomfortable situations, but more adventures.

You know, so he starts taking travels, he starts taking on weird job offers, saying yes to every email offer, I remember, including loads of spam, which gets him into all sorts of financial trouble and all sorts of other stuff.

But that was his rules.

Got to say yes.

So it's good.

It's good fun.

It's just good fun.

But he is the ultimate yes-sayer.

Jono Hey:
So is that what the Jim Carrey film is?

Did he write that one?

Is that Jim Carrey?

Rob Bell:
Yeah, I think it's Jim Carrey.

Is it called Yes Man?

Because it is, I think it was based on the book.

Yeah, I think it was.

I don't know how true to the book it is, but it is based on that premise of somebody being stuck in a rut and deciding I'm just going to say yes to everything.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
I mean, for my recollection, it's a really fun film.

And you can imagine, like, compared to a film called No Man, who sits around on the sofa reading the book and saying no to everything.

Like it makes a good film.

But the No Man might be really happy.

Yeah, doing their own or working on something really important.

Yeah.

Tom Pellereau:
I didn't know that at all.

That's brilliant.

Rob Bell:
Oh, yeah.

It's good fun.

It's good fun.

It's good fun.

Jono Hey:
I was trying to think of one of the classic, will you say yes or will you say no situation is when you get, when you're at a show or something on stage and they ask for volunteers.

So where do you guys stand for that?

It's like, do we have any volunteers for the audience?

And everybody there is going, I could say yes or I could say no.

Or they're saying, please don't pick me.

And some people are saying, please pick me.

You know, I don't know.

Where do you guys stand?

Rob Bell:
That's a great question.

My go to is a no.

That's my go to.

I know I don't necessarily like myself for that.

Jono Hey:
You wish you were saying yes, but...

Rob Bell:
It's not in my control.

Yeah.

Tom Pellereau:
My kids are 100 percent yes in any opportunity like that.

We went to a campsite recently and there was a kind of Britain's Got Talent thing and they were asking, does anyone want to come and do stuff?

And Jack was like, yeah, I'll do one of my card tricks.

Like, wow, there is no way that I would have done that when I was that age.

Rob Bell:
Can I make an observation that is blatantly clear to Jono and I, but possibly not, well, obviously not to you, Tommy.

I feel very strongly that your kids have got that from somewhere.

And I feel strongly that out of the three of us, you would be the most likely to put your hand up and say yes in that volunteer situation.

Jono, what do you think?

Jono Hey:
Yeah, I'd look at you and go, Yeah, go on, Tommy.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, but that's fair, potentially.

And you did something really good.

Rob Bell:
I mean that as a compliment, Tommy, and I hope you take it.

Tom Pellereau:
I wasn't like that when I was young.

Rob Bell:
Maybe not, but in the time that I've known you, I'd say of the three of us, you would definitely be the most willing.

Tom Pellereau:
It's possibly true.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, that's good.

Rob Bell:
But why is it?

What are the, I don't know, subconscious emotional or cognitive responses that are your signs that it's a yes or a no for you?

So in that situation there, Jono, where there's a stage performance and they've asked for volunteers, are you saying no because of fear?

Would you say yes because you want to please people?

Is that the fear of missing out?

Is it a kind of, I'm just tired of making decisions in certain situations?

Wait, I'm just going to say no.

What are those buried triggers within us that define the yes or the no that we might give?

Jono Hey:
I mean, I don't know exactly and I don't know if there's a tree for everybody.

But I feel like a lot of this is shaped by some of the early experiences we have.

And it came to mind again, a quote by, I think it was a psychologist, which was, and I keep thinking about it, which is, the catastrophe you fear will happen has already happened.

And when I was thinking about like, will I volunteer or not?

I think about like, why wouldn't I volunteer if you're Jack?

I don't know, maybe every time he's volunteered, it's worked out well or something.

Maybe when I was younger, I volunteered, like I was really embarrassed, or I did it wrong or something like that, or I think I'm going to do it wrong.

Like I guess I'm worried about making a fool of myself.

I remember we went to a play where they asked, it's not so much, honestly, we might often get seats further back because you might get called on to go up the front if you're towards the front.

I remember they called on somebody and they had them doing something silly, like just holding a shelf so they could fix it.

Then both the actors walked off stage and the guys left there, standing there holding a shelf, which is really funny for everybody in the audience.

Then you're like, Oh, thank God, I'm not that guy looking stupid.

Those are the sorts of things that go through my head when I think of volunteer.

But obviously, he probably got a great story out of it.

He probably wasn't bad at all and he's really fun being on stage.

So what am I worried about?

I don't know, but I am apparently.

Rob Bell:
You miss 100 percent of the opportunities you don't take.

Jono Hey:
That's it.

Rob Bell:
I was looking at some tools that might help make decisions.

Jono, I'm pretty sure you've done sketches on a few of them.

I know some of them we've talked about in different podcast episodes previously.

One was The Eisenhower Matrix, so-called after US President Dwight D.

Eisenhower, which is a simple two-by-two grid used to prioritize tasks based on urgency and importance.

Right.

So is it urgent and important?

Is it not urgent but important?

And blah, blah, you can do the rest of it.

So that's one way, I guess, of deciding a yes or no.

Another one I read on was a philosophy by someone called Derek Sivers, called The Hell Yes or Hell No philosophy.

Do you know that one?

Have you done a sketch on it?

Jono Hey:
I think Derek Sivers might have been the one where we discussed about the Fast Follower or The First Follower.

Rob Bell:
Great, with the guy dancing in the field.

Jono Hey:
Exactly.

Rob Bell:
Brilliant.

Love that.

Okay.

Amazing.

So if you don't feel that kind of guttural, yes, this fills me with energy and excitement, then it's a no.

Right.

Jono Hey:
And just leave it to Tom.

Rob Bell:
And vice versa.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

Rob Bell:
And there were a number of others.

There's like the 80-20 rule, an energy audit.

Say yes to what gives you energy.

Say no to what drains it.

Very simple.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

Rob Bell:
I like this, an opportunity cost assessment, where you'd ask yourself, well, what would I be giving up by saying yes?

So it's the, what's the cost and what's the opportunity and how do they balance each other around?

Jono Hey:
The energy audits are a really interesting one, because I remember if you do something like the Myers-Briggs analysis, put like, answer a bunch of questions and it'll tell you, tell you some things about yourself.

And one of them is whether you're sort of more introverted or more extroverted.

And I remember learning that how to help decide was where you recharge, and if you're extroverted, you tend to recharge by being with people.

And if you're introverted, you tend to recharge by being by yourself.

And knowing that framing, because I think part of it, a little bit like the yes-says, no-says, was me thinking, I'm a bit more on the introverted side, but I should be, and I wish I kind of was a bit more on the extroverted side.

They seem to have more fun.

Maybe they do more in life because they're out doing things, whereas I'm saying no, and I'm being at home by myself or whatever.

But actually, I realized that those times when I say no, and or like I'm traveling by myself, I get it when I'm traveling by myself, I really enjoy that time.

I think a lot of people do, but I'm actually full of ideas and energy in that time.

It's not like I'm like, just relaxed.

I actually am energized by that.

And I think other people are the opposite.

They might be energized by being with people instead of without.

And I think that maybe comes, it's interesting.

I never made that connection between yes says and no says, but in some ways, there probably is there.

Like, should I go out?

And because everybody else is going out, well, some people maybe that's right for them because that's how they re-energized.

Yeah.

But actually for me, I'm going to be more energized if I stay in and work on my music or whatever, or have a nice time with family tonight.

That's going to energize me.

So yeah, it's really interesting framework for thinking about it as an energy audit.

Rob Bell:
Lovely.

Is there any other questions, any other related items people wanted to bring up on this topic of yes sayers and no sayers?

Jono Hey:
I'll just say one thing, which is, as I was reflecting more on yes sayers and no sayers, tonight, and that thing we talked about earlier about saying no sometimes helps you focus on the right yeses.

I was thinking there's almost like the opposite of that, which for me, which is like procrastination.

Where procrastination is not, I'm not doing anything.

Procrastination is I'm doing lots of things.

They're just not the thing that I should be doing.

So I was thinking that it looks like I'm saying yes to lots of things, but actually I'm saying no.

Rob Bell:
That's interesting.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, it's like, you know, I know that I should be doing this.

This is what I should be saying yes to, but that feels like it's unknown and adventurous.

So I'm going to do all these other yeses where I feel comfortable and happy with them.

And it looks like I'm saying yes, but actually I'm saying no.

So that's procrastination for me.

Rob Bell:
Jono, you've just described my day.

I have a thing that is becoming increasingly urgent that needs writing.

And I have a blank sheet.

But I have a...

Jono Hey:
Today's the day.

Rob Bell:
But I've got a really clear email inbox.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, brilliant.

And there's no dirty laundry at the moment.

That's all sorted.

Rob Bell:
Yes, yes, yes to all that.

That's a good point, Jono.

Yeah, really nice point.

I want to just try and summarise any takeaways for that.

The biggest takeaway for me is the takeaway of what the sketch poses at the front.

It was such a moment of realisation for me that no is not the bad.

No is not the wrong.

No can be a really positive experience.

And it was really quite comforting to go through examples of where I am a no-sayer and to understand that that's me taking positive decisions towards that.

But that realisation was fantastic.

And I'm so pleased we've talked about that in more detail on this podcast.

All thanks to your sketch, Jono.

Jono Hey:
For me, appreciating what you have when you say no.

I feel like I spend a bit of my life with this fear of missing out.

And I ought to say yes.

And actually, one of the counters to that is just to be really happy with what you have and the way things are when you say no.

And you might have missed out on this.

But as long as you notice all the good things you have, I just think that's a really healthy way to be.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
Be happy with what you've got.

Rob Bell:
Lovely.

Thank you, chaps.

As always, a brilliantly interesting chat.

Thank you both for saying yes a couple of years ago when I asked you if you'd be interested in doing a podcast together.

As for the festivals coming up over the summer, it's still a hard no from me and I will revel in that Jomo on that one.

Thank you all for listening.

Please continue to say yes to Sketchplanations The Podcast.

And if you don't already, you can subscribe so you don't miss out on future episodes by heading along to podcast.sketchplanations.com/follow.

We're going to be taking a short summer break for the next few weeks, but we'll be back with you in August and we'll check in between now and then just to make sure you're all right, but it won't be a full episode.

And so in that time, please do go well and stay well.

Goodbye.

All music on this podcast series is provided by the very talented Franc Cinelli.

And you can find many more tracks at franccinelli.com.