The Awkwardness Vortex with Melissa Dahl

Rob Bell:
Hello and welcome to Sketchplanations The Podcast, the fortnightly fanfare for curious people that delves into life's mysteries and fascinations, drawn from the plethora of sketches at sketchplanations.com.

I'm engineer and broadcaster Rob Bell, and with me as always is the creator of Sketchplanations, Jono Hey, and established entrepreneur and past winner of The Apprentice, Tom Pellereau, and I'm very pleased to say joining us on this episode is celebrated science journalist specializing in psychology, health and lifestyle, Melissa Dahl.

Melissa, Tommy, Jono, hello.

Melissa Dahl:
Hi, thanks for having me.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, Melissa, thank you so much for joining us on this episode.

We will be addressing the, shall we say somewhat troublesome topic of the awkwardness vortex, this kind of self-perpetuating cycle between the physical and emotional manifestations of feeling nervous or anxious.

And as you, Melissa, have dedicated a whole chapter to it, The Awkwardness Vortex, in your well-observed and witty book, Cringeworthy, A Theory of Awkwardness, There is Nobody Better for us to be speaking to about this.

Are you an awkward person, Melissa?

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah, I think I have lived my life fighting against it.

So maybe I feel like internally, I maybe do have some awkward tendencies.

But, you know, the book is sort of like, I feel like most writers kind of like write things like to themselves or write things that they need to hear, you know.

So I feel like in a way it was something that like I needed to work out.

Jono Hey:
It reminds me, Barry Schwartz, who is famous for the Paradox of Choice, he said, he just got incredibly frustrated when he couldn't find the right pair of jeans to fit him in the store.

And then decades of research later and three books, he got to the bottom of it, you know.

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah, there's like a saying, like I think like social scientists have where they're like, all research is me search.

So that's been true for me.

Rob Bell:
That's nice.

Tom Pellereau:
That's really nice.

Rob Bell:
Or I feel like there's at least, I should say, a little bit of awkwardness in everyone, really.

Melissa Dahl:
I mean, that's actually kind of like what I came around to feel like after like researching this for, you know, however long it took to write the book, that it's just like such a very, very human, very like uniting emotion.

Rob Bell:
Now, you should be able to see Jono's fabulous sketch for this up on your screens now as the artwork for this episode.

But if you fancy taking a closer look, you can also see it in his recent book, Big Ideas, Little Pictures.

And fun fact, this is the first sketch we've covered in the podcast that is exclusive to the book.

And there's a link to get your hands on a copy in the podcast episode description down below.

So in this episode, we'll share and hopefully enjoy retrospectively at least some of our own experiences of crippling social awkwardness.

And with Melissa's expert help, we'll delve into why this phenomenon exists as part of being a human, where it's most commonly found and how to avoid slash tackle it when it does happen.

Right.

I mean, I had a quick stab at it in my introduction there, Melissa.

But what do you mean when you talk about the awkwardness vortex?

Melissa Dahl:
Actually, to be totally honest, like this came from the very first draft of me attempting to write this book.

Like I thought that I was writing a guide to anti-awkwardness.

Like the first draft of the book was very much like very prescriptive.

Again, I was kind of writing something for myself.

You know, I'm just going to figure out how to protect myself from ever feeling awkward ever again, you know.

And I mean, I did that a lot just in my, I used to, when I was writing the book, I was a writer at New York Magazine for a vertical that no longer exists, but it was called Science of Us and it covered social science and psychology.

And a lot of the things I wrote were about like trying to like find very detailed instructions to never feel awkward again.

Like I interviewed a psychologist about like, when is exactly the right time to say hello and make eye contact if you're like passing someone in a hallway?

Or I asked, I tried to find somebody else who would answer me like, okay, so like someone is walking towards you and you're walking towards someone else.

Like which way should you move to avoid running into them and you need to avoid doing that little dance thing where like you both move the same way or whatever.

And I think this was like the first inkling I got that maybe there was something wrong to this approach because this guy who studied something he had termed sidewalk aggression, which is kind of like road rage, but like for people who like live in, like where I live in New York, like who get like really angry, like road rage-y but like from the sidewalk.

And he replied in his email to me, like he gave me an answer, but he also is like, he's like, if I may be so bold, I think you may have a mild case of sidewalk aggression.

Just like that rigidity of like needing to know exactly like, you know, which way to go.

Anyway, when you write a book, you just go through so many like iterations of it, iterations of the idea.

And in one of the later ones, I realized like why this wasn't exactly working, this wasn't exactly kind of turning into like anything bigger was because I was just going at this idea totally the wrong way.

And actually, like trying to set yourself up like a checklist, here is exactly, you know, when to look up at someone when you're walking on the hallway or, you know, trying to like just zero in on like the rules, creating rules for yourself in these social situations and trying to follow them to the letter.

Like that is actually a really good way to make you feel even more awkward.

And yeah, so I ended up terming it the awkwardness vortex, because I talked to some psychologists who like study, like there's a like pretty well established link between like self-focus and anxiety, including social anxiety.

And, you know, one psychologist kind of told me like when you are nervous, you kind of just narrow in on your own perspective.

Like it's really hard to see things from other people's point of view.

And that's kind of where I got that idea of that like vortex thing, where you just kind of like narrowing yourself and it just like kind of spirals you downward.

It doesn't actually help alleviate any awkwardness, which is so, it's just so funny.

It's just that this was my whole approach to this project, and it just turned out to be completely wrong and result in this vortex thing.

Jono Hey:
I remember hearing you talking about the awkwardness vortex, and you gave this example which just really struck home for me, was kind of if you're giving a talk, let's say, in front of some peers at work, and you're nervous, which is a job interview, and you're doing that, and you feel like you're not ready for this, and that was like the nervous side, and then you said, oh my God, like I'm sweating, maybe I've got sweat marks around under my arms or something, and then you're like, you can see that I've got sweat marks under my arms, and then that makes you more nervous, and then you're like, done things, like I don't, yeah, where do I put my hands, and how do I stand, right, I'm standing really awkward, and so I was thinking about that when I was with that sort of spiraling down, the vortex for me, nervous, self-conscious, nervous, self-conscious, and there's no way out.

And it's funny how you say about the corridor one, if there's a really long corridor and you recognize somebody at the other end, really far away, imagine you say, hey, right down the other end, you still then spend like the next 20 seconds walking towards each other.

And that's just one way you're like, I'm walking really funny.

I don't know, yeah.

Should I swing my arms?

Rob Bell:
Do I normally swing my arms?

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah, exactly.

And I thought, I thought initially approaching this project, I thought the way out of that was just to like, searching through JSTOR and like looking for scientific articles and coming across equations like social scientists, psychologists had made about here's how exactly to end the conversation, like here's how the average conversation is ended.

And I was like, this will help, this will make it so I will never feel awkward again.

And like, guess what?

Obviously, that is not helpful.

Tom Pellereau:
Although that sounds really helpful.

Could I get that?

That's it.

Because my dad is amazing at these sort of big social settings.

He'll go around and he'll talk to certain people.

And then he'll kind of pull me in and I'll be there.

And then I'll be talking to them.

And then he's like social butterflying around the place.

And I'm like, oh, hi.

And they don't necessarily want to talk to me either.

How do I get?

How do we all move on to the next conversation?

Melissa Dahl:
It's tough.

The kind of conclusion I arrived at in the book was a little bit like, there isn't a good list of advice of like, here's exactly how to get out of awkward conversations.

Here's exactly the step by step thing to do.

That in fact is kind of exactly what I was writing against.

And then it's been so funny.

The book came out in 2018, but it got a little like organic resurgence of publicity and like interview requests and stuff after the pandemic.

You know, like I got a lot of like journalists were calling me and kind of being like, oh, how do we integrate into the world again?

And I was like, I actually think that like what you're asking me for is going to backfire.

Like giving people this list of memorize these things and then you'll, you won't feel self-conscious.

That is just back to that awkwardness vortex.

I just think unfortunately it's, I don't think it's something where there's a step by step out of it.

Rob Bell:
That's interesting because I was hoping that we could all come away with some tips.

I write.

Melissa Dahl:
I do.

I mean, I don't know if we want to get into this.

Rob Bell:
No, let's let's come on to it.

Let's come on to it towards the end.

What I was going to say, what you were describing and what Jono is describing there is this chain reaction.

But what turns that chain reaction into a vortex is with each step, it becomes more and more intense.

Right.

And so that's where that spiral and that vortex comes to where at the end, it's so intense and you're at this point, you're in the eye of the storm and all hell is breaking loose by that point.

Tom Pellereau:
And ridiculously, it's a storm of your own creation.

Rob Bell:
Yeah.

Tom Pellereau:
It's only in your own head.

And I loved seeing this for the first time.

It's not until you recognize these things in yourself that actually you can even find ways to try and prevent it.

Because it's all in your head, right?

Tonight, I knew that we were having this conversation, right?

And tonight, I went to a club with my son, and there were a number of parents there that I hadn't met before.

Now, I did also have my daughter with me, so I had a kind of excuse as to why I couldn't go and socialize.

I had to go and look after her.

You had an ally.

I was like, tonight, Tom, you must go and strike up some conversations and try and start.

And at the beginning, there was this really lovely Irish person, and Irish people still assume to have that way of kind of making a conversation work.

But then she left, and then I came back, and I was standing a bit separately talking to my son, and I sort of walked across to go and sort of talk to them.

And there were these three people together, and it was I couldn't quite get that close easily.

And then I just found myself, I just carried on walking past them.

And then I was like, beyond them, and I was like, I can't just walk back across.

So I walked the whole way round, and I had to go right the way back, round the back of the leisure centre, all the time thinking, you could have just gone and said hello.

And so I just went back to the car.

Rob Bell:
That is very immersive of you, knowing that we had this tonight.

So you could put yourself through that and be able to tell us that example.

Tom Pellereau:
And I completely failed.

I didn't even allow myself to kind of start the vortex.

I was like, no, I just carry on round.

So I'm sorry that I couldn't have had a better example.

But I have a number of those sort of things happen in my life.

Rob Bell:
I mean, one one example I had from a couple of years ago, which the cringe aspect of it when I think back.

Oh, la la.

So with a group of friends, I want to go and see a stand up show of a comedian who I really, really love.

His name is Tim Key.

He's a very funny actor, a comedy actor, comedian, poet.

Now, one of the group that I was with is friends with Tim Key.

So after the show, we met up and went for a drink in a pub just around the corner.

And we're in a small huddle in the pub and we stood there, there's maybe four of us.

And I'm not sure I can think of a time when I was more self-conscious about how I came across.

And I found myself desperately thinking of what I can contribute to this lighthearted conversation that was at play, which I'm normally fine with.

It's just the fact that I kind of idolized this chat.

It was awful.

I was so uncomfortable.

I bumbled my way through this kind of half-baked reaction to a story that Tim was telling before deciding that this is awful.

This is too bad.

And I made my excuses and I went home.

It was awful.

I just thought that this is not good for anybody.

I'm stressing myself out.

I've got to go.

It was horrible.

Jono Hey:
I mean, is that a common reaction?

Not exactly fight or flight, but it's just get out of there.

Melissa Dahl:
I'm not sure.

If you're asking me, I mean, personally, yes.

I'm not sure if there's like any research to back that up, but it sounds familiar.

Rob Bell:
There's one that I see quite a lot in my line of work.

So I work in TV presenting, Melissa, and a lot of the time we work with experts who we want to interview and find out.

And so you'll do your interview and then you'll end up, you'll need to get a shot of them arriving somewhere.

And you see people fall to pieces when they're just asked to walk from that door up towards this signpost.

They're like, Oh God, I never thought about how I walk before.

This is, and you get these all funny walks.

Tom Pellereau:
No, no, just walk, just walk here.

Rob Bell:
You don't have to say anything.

Tom Pellereau:
Oh, naturally.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, but you film it.

It's just, yeah, I see it all the time.

Melissa Dahl:
Oh, that's so funny.

I bet that's true.

I, looking back, I ended up quoting 30 Rock a little too much in this book, but whatever.

I mean, but there's a scene in it where like, Dac Donaghy, the Alex Baldwin character is like, filming a commercial or something and he does that.

He can't figure out what to do with his hands.

He's like, first thing he's like, maybe I'll hold a coffee cup.

And then he's like, well, now I feel off balance.

I should hold two coffee cups.

Rob Bell:
Yes.

From your research and your ponderings on this, Melissa, did you feel, are there typical scenarios in life that we, we know that a lot of us feel awkward in?

Melissa Dahl:
Well, I mean, I think that like, it kind of follows from the awkwardness vortex.

If there are situations where you are really worried about your coming across and like presenting yourself, it's more likely to happen.

And unfortunately, those are the situations where you like kind of need to really not get locked up in your own head, like a, you know, a first date or a job interview or whatever.

Or, you know, if you're doing like public speaking or if you're like on a podcast.

I interviewed somebody for the book who who studied choking in big moments, you know, like choking under pressure and ended up kind of learning a lot from that.

Rob Bell:
Because in in sport, it's often called the yips, isn't it?

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah, yeah, I ended up feeling like that was a really useful way to look at specifically the awkwardness vortex and like how to get out of it or how to avoid it.

Like they say, there's kind of like a theory in sports psychology that for a novice, it's really useful to like focus on the step by step, you know, the mechanics of the process.

But once you're kind of expert level, that is what trips you up.

That's kind of what in what I termed the awkwardness vortex or, you know, in a sports setting might trigger something like the yips.

And so they say that for experts, it's more useful to focus on the bigger picture kind of like the your goal, your outcome.

And there's been some studies kind of to back that up.

But but yeah, that that's like to me what I think is the biggest and best advice that I have in something that I I try to remember myself, the best way to navigate one of these situations is not, I just I don't think it's super useful to even to go in with, okay, like here are the three questions I'm going to ask.

You're like, here's exactly where I'm going to do, like what I'm going to do with my hands or whatever.

But just to kind of go in to a situation and be like, what's my what's my goal?

Like, what do I want the outcome to be?

Like as easy as that can kind of sound.

But like, you know, it could be like, I want to get to know this person better.

I want to meet a new person or something.

Because I will say, I feel like I'm kind of a shy person naturally.

But when I go into a situation as a journalist, I don't feel awkward.

I don't feel self-conscious because I'm there.

I have a goal.

I like need to, you know, answer X, Y, Z questions.

And so I think it's helpful to use that mindset, even if you're, you know, talking to other parents or whatever, you know, like just and you can just make it up.

Tom Pellereau:
That's a really good point.

Melissa Dahl:
I think that's helpful.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, that's that's amazingly helpful.

Melissa Dahl:
Oh, good.

Rob Bell:
It is putting that hat on, right?

You're putting the journalist hat on.

Similarly, I'm quite an introverted person, but when I'm out filming, I need to speak to people.

That's my job.

Same as you.

I put that hat on and I kind of become a slightly different character.

Tom Pellereau:
And you really, Rob, you are brilliant because you interview all kinds of people and some of them like haven't come out of that tunnel or that lighthouse or whatever in six months and you've got to try and get them to talk on camera.

And you're really good at pulling people out by asking them about their job and sort of relating to them, but being your TV's Rob Bell.

Rob Bell:
Well, you want them to forget the fact that they've got cameras pointing at them.

That's it.

Tom Pellereau:
And it must be pretty tricky when there's...

Rob Bell:
Well, yeah, but I guess that's the same with you, Melissa, when you're interviewing someone from a journalistic perspective.

You want them to forget that they're having a conversation with a journalist.

You want them to just be able to have a conversation with a person.

Yeah, which is where you'll get a truer responses from them.

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah, it doesn't really do me any favor if I'm, you know, acting nervous and weird, so.

Rob Bell:
Yeah.

So is distraction a technique, or could distraction be a technique to get somebody out of that vortex?

Distract them from thinking about themselves and adding another link on that chain?

Melissa Dahl:
I think so.

Yeah, I think so.

Like if you, that's probably like a good way to break that pretty immediately.

Because if the kind of theory is that it's focus on yourself that kind of triggers it, then yeah, putting your focus probably anywhere else is a good way to break it.

Yeah.

Jono Hey:
In the sketch, from what I learned from yourself, the two tips were focus outside of yourself was one of them.

So on anything else, like in the, if you're giving a talk, anything else in the room or whatever, just so that you're not like paying attention to yourself sweating again or your arms anymore, you're looking at the slides or I don't know, clock on the wall.

Melissa Dahl:
When the book came out, I had a whole other hurdle of awkwardness, kind of the challenges because I really hate self-promotion.

I find that incredibly, I find it pretty cringe, I find it pretty awkward.

And I wrote a little article for, I was an editor at The Cut at the time, which is a New York Magazine publication.

And I wrote a little article that was self-promotion advice for the extremely self-conscious.

And it's kind of goes, it's kind of the similar vein of thought.

And this a little bit goes back to that, like focus on the outcome thing.

But I talked to a psychologist who had some advice that was like, just think of yourself as the messenger in a way.

Maybe I hate that there's attention on me, but like I have something I want to get across.

Like just thinking about like if you're delivering a talk or something like that, you know, like I had this little message is its own little being in a way.

And like I'm just responsible for pushing this out here in the world.

So like, don't look at me, look at this little message.

That's been helpful too actually.

So and I think that's another way of lessening the focus on yourself.

Jono Hey:
So this is the second approach to get yourself out of the vortex was, I think it's known as anxiety reappraisal, which is essentially a lot of when you feel nervous, a lot of the body's signals that you're anxious or nervous are essentially more or less the same signals that you get when you're excited.

If you're sweaty or your heart's going faster.

And I think you suggested that this anxiety reappraisal is thinking of yourself as excited about what you're doing.

And that's why you're sweating and your heart's racing rather than the fact that you're anxious.

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah, I think that is so helpful.

Not always putting emotional interpretations on what your body is doing.

Even if in the moment, maybe you're kind of tricking yourself.

Because, you know, it is true that maybe your heart is racing because you're nervous.

But just trying to separate yourself from it a little bit.

Like, okay, I don't have to interpret it that way.

It doesn't have to be what that means.

Yeah, I found that really useful.

Rob Bell:
I've heard of that used with people who suffer from, I mean, this is what we're talking about, but really intense anxiety moving into panic attacks.

Let's say, maybe they're feeling claustrophobic on a train and they don't like going through tunnels, and you're on this journey, you know there's a tunnel coming up, and all of that starts to happen, your heart starts beating, and the reappraisal is, no, no, no, come on, bring it on.

Bring it on.

That's what's happening here.

I'm excited.

Come on.

Rather than the, oh my god, type thing.

And I've heard that that can be really helpful.

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah, I mean, there's some real truth to it.

There's not one way to interpret what your body's doing.

It's kind of just like we've decided like this group of physical symptoms, we're calling it anxiety.

But you could call it excitement.

You could call it just, I shouldn't have jumped that Celsius.

Tom Pellereau:
I got to say, skiing with Rob Bell is a bit like that for me.

Because we're at the top of the mountain and we're lifting up the kind of do not go past this point sort of sign.

It's fine.

Fine.

Ignore that barrier in the side.

We'll just sneak around here.

It's very, very exciting and also very scary.

Usually, it's a very similar kind of feeling really.

Rob Bell:
Don't do that anymore.

I'm a big comedy fan, Melissa, and awkwardness is almost a sub-genre of comedy, right?

So I was trying to think of things that are both ways across the Atlantic.

So The Office, either the UK or the US version, awkwardness all over it.

That's what the whole thing is built on.

Larry David in Curb Your Enthusiasm, super through the roof awkwardness, other ones more over here, Faulty Towers, Motherland or Amanda Land recently on TV.

Has an onlooker.

Why do we enjoy it so much to watch that awkwardness?

Tom Pellereau:
I really, I don't know.

Melissa Dahl:
So I ended up interviewing one of the moderators of our cringe, which is like people just posting these clips from around the internet or from movies and stuff on reddit, sorry, yeah.

And his sort of interpretation was it's almost like, it's like the same thrill we get out of the horror movie, you know, that it's like, you kind of experience something, but like, you're not, you're not really in it.

Like it's like you, you're at a safe distance and maybe these are fears that you have like some social anxiety or something and, and, and getting to watch even the worst of it play out.

Maybe there's something kind of useful about like seeing like, okay, that's like the worst that could happen, but that doesn't happen to me.

Tom Pellereau:
But, um, It's happening to someone else.

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah.

Yeah.

I think there is something to that.

Um, I go, I go a little bit, uh, back and forth with how much I like to watch that kind of like cringe comedy.

Rob Bell:
Yeah.

Okay.

Tom Pellereau:
The comparison with horror is really good because some people really love horror and it's, it's not for me.

And, and similarly, the awkwardness of TV.

Some people, sometimes you really kind of enjoy watching that.

And sometimes it's like, as Rob mentioned, I was on a TV show called The Apprentice.

Um, and watching that is currently on in the UK and it is so awkward in, in many different places.

And I remember awkwardness and it sort of deliberately, and I can't watch it for more than a couple of minutes before I have to, because my kids are really enjoying it.

So let's sit down and watch it.

And I'm like, oh, it's just, no, it's too much.

And I've got to go and do the dishes and I go and talk stuff out.

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah.

It is like, it's like a, like social horror or something.

Rob Bell:
Yes.

That's what it is.

Social horror.

Jono Hey:
That's a great one.

The sort of Simon Cowell doing the judging in the talent show ones as well.

Where, yeah, it's quite hard to watch, but it's evidently popular TV.

Rob Bell:
It's compelling to watch.

It's hard to watch, but compelling.

Tom Pellereau:
So Jonny, that's also a really good question I wanted to ask.

Like it feels that some people don't get awkward.

Simon Cowell, for example, that he's in a position where he is, everyone is kind of looking at him or whatever.

And I get the feeling he doesn't feel any awkwardness.

Like he could easily remove that awkwardness so easy, but he kind of deliberately builds it all.

I suppose in life there's every different types of person.

Jono Hey:
Maybe he's a plain judge, like you're a plain journalist, but you know, maybe he could be awkward in the school playground as well.

Rob Bell:
I bet he can.

Melissa Dahl:
There's some research about this that, and I think it makes a lot of sense that, like people who kind of like seal that second-hand embarrassment the most, you know, like you were saying, you can't like sit and watch these reality shows when they feel especially awkward.

Those people also tend to be like fairly empathetic.

Like they're more, they're better at like putting themselves in someone else's shoes, which, I mean, that completely makes sense.

So it's like, you know, it says some nice things about you potentially if you just, you know, can't stand to watch these social war shows.

I think I completely buy that.

That's more likely to happen to someone who is really highly empathetic.

Tom Pellereau:
And so then sort of being a scale, there's some people who probably don't feel awkwardness at all in any situation.

I definitely know someone like that.

I just don't, just not bothered at all.

What do you mean, don't quit?

Melissa Dahl:
Even like to even experience, not even just second-hand embarrassment, which is like what the study researchers I referenced were looking at, but like even just to experience awkwardness itself in a social situation, it means that you are kind of like guessing at what someone else is thinking or you're putting yourself in someone else's, you know, shoes.

Like I don't think it has to come from like how you're appearing to somebody else.

So if you just don't care, I mean, that's, I guess that's sometimes I wish I could have a little more of that.

But, but I know.

But it's a good thing generally, just like socially, just as a society, it is a good thing to like.

Tom Pellereau:
But some people just don't get it at all.

Right.

And then some people.

So I have it, I think a bit too much.

And when I'm with my sister, who also has it, we can create our own vortexes together.

And we've known each other for 40 years.

So it's like, this is ridiculous.

I'm with my sister and yet both of us are really, really awkward.

Rob Bell:
You know, when somebody yawns, we have this reaction to yawn.

Isn't that about out of empathy, you're yawning kind of psychologically.

And if somebody doesn't yawn when they see somebody yawn.

And now I may be speaking out of turn and I'm absolutely not judging Simon Cowell's character whatsoever.

But don't they talk about them being kind of psychopathic, like that lack of empathy.

Is that, I feel like I may have heard that anecdotally somewhere.

Melissa Dahl:
I can't like confidently speak to that, but I can also then also sounds familiar.

Rob Bell:
Yeah.

When you say anecdotally, you can get away with anything.

Well, I've heard that anecdotally.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah.

The empathy explanation like makes a lot of sense to me.

So, and it does like make me feel better for experiencing this so often and so deeply.

Rob Bell:
Yes.

Oh, good.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

Rob Bell:
What a lovely little turnaround.

Tom Pellereau:
It is this, you feel awkward.

It's a really positive thing.

It's about a good characteristic trait that you know, you should support exactly.

Melissa Dahl:
It is.

It means you care about like, you know, fitting into society.

It means you care about the people around you.

Like I am completely sincere when like I came at this research project, this book project of like trying to like ward myself off from feeling this emotion ever to like completely appreciating it, just appreciating what it kind of does for humanity.

Like, I know that sounds like grandiose, but I'm kind of not kidding.

Like it's a really lovely little emotion.

Rob Bell:
It really, really is.

And I do feel like we're doing the reappraisal here.

Of being anxious.

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah.

Yeah.

It's hard to remember in the moment when you're like, you know, when you're experiencing it, but I do think it's true.

Rob Bell:
Melissa, can I ask you, in your work and your research around this, did you have any, any findings that you weren't expecting or things that you found particularly interesting?

Melissa Dahl:
I was very interested in just how people were using the word awkward, you know, while I was writing the book and I came across a ad campaign from the 2010s in the UK that was put on by a disability advocacy group, I think.

And it was called End the Awkward.

And there were these like, do you remember it?

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, it was a really good campaign, actually.

Melissa Dahl:
It really was.

Tom Pellereau:
It was like, really saw to the heart of the scenario that must make me say, well, it's like, oh, feeling awkward because you're in a wheelchair, like, it's irrelevant.

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah, it was like, like, non-disabled people, like, interacting with someone who has a disability and just making it awkward for no reason.

And that to me, I think that I ended up putting that in my chapter about the awkwardness vortex because it's the same thing.

I think there would be examples of, you know, oh, just like, you know, don't mention the wheelchair, don't mention, you know, something like that, when, like, the better way to, like, go about an interaction with just a person is just to think about, like, you know, like, if, like, who are they?

Like, who, like, are they a work colleague?

Like, you know, then I could just talk to them about, like, our shared project or whatever.

And yeah, I thought that was a they're really funny, too.

They're like they're like almost like little sketch, like little sketches, like little sketch comedy, little things.

So yeah, I loved those.

Rob Bell:
I'll try and find links to those and include them in the in the episode description.

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah.

Yeah, they're great.

Tom Pellereau:
I love what you said about how you came full circle about how you started by, like, I want to try and go beyond this or learn or not have this anymore.

And then you kind of realized that actually it's a really good thing.

I also love it on Jono's sketch you said, you've got to try and push through that awkwardness and sort of see it, see it out and sort of stay in that bit, just not, not walk away and walk around the building as I did tonight.

Melissa Dahl:
Well, you know, like in the years since my book has come out, I came across like some young person on TikTok who like, they weren't talking about my book, but they like kind of like had a better pitch for it than I ever came up with.

They had this, this concept of they called it Cringe Mountain.

And the idea being that like, like, like, okay, here's you and like here's like this result you want.

Maybe it's like you want to like, you want to start a TikTok or you want to like start, you know, writing a sub stack or something.

And then here's like this mountain of cringe in the middle, like that you just have to like surmount that like you just like, you're going to have to embarrass yourself to like get what you want, like because you're just you're going to be bad at it at first.

And I love, I just love that.

That's exactly like kind of one of the things I was getting at in the book that I think is like, I'm like, I wish I had been saying it that way.

Tom Pellereau:
But in Cringe Mountain or Cringe is a is a nice word because awkward in itself is just such an awkward word.

I don't know if in America it was just such an awkward, horrible word.

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah, it feels like like cringe feels.

It just feels like every generation has its own version of this.

And I feel like I'm like an older millennial.

And for us, like, you know, maybe in like the early 2010s, like late 2000s, it was very like awkward, you know.

Oh, yeah.

But like, you know, Gen Zers are very like, oh, that's cringe.

This is cringe.

That's cringe.

And I was talking to somebody who was like like a Gen Xer, and they were like, oh, I think like for us when I was a teenager, everything was gross.

Like, that's gross.

So I just I feel like every, you know, generation has their version.

Jono Hey:
I like that Cringemountain example when they're talking about projects, and that you're trying to do something.

And in order to do that, as you say, you got to be bad at it, maybe you're going to be vulnerable.

The first one's not good.

Because when I was thinking about it, it reminded me of Reed Hoffman, who founded LinkedIn, has this famous saying, like if you're not embarrassed about the first version of your product, you launch too late.

And like in the idea that you shouldn't wait until you're perfect and you're completely confident about the result and everybody's going to be well done, great job.

You did everything just right.

You know, you have to put it out there when you're not sure if it's going to work and it might not work.

And people might say it's crap.

And that's awkward and embarrassing and scary.

Tom Pellereau:
I might say that depends on what you're doing, software and websites and that stuff, definitely.

Electrical beauty products, I don't kind of get.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, no, no, it's fair enough.

He works in software.

Tom Pellereau:
But I love the sentiment.

And he's right.

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah, sometimes people have asked me like, how do I stop cringing at something I did, you know, years ago?

And my answer is kind of just like being grateful that like you're this version of yourself now that like wouldn't do that again.

Rob Bell:
That's nice.

Yeah.

Jono Hey:
Melissa, I wanted to ask, because one of the things I thought about when immediately when I thought about awkward, and you talked about it at some point, was like hearing your own voice.

And I remember, it's not the same now, but like I remember in French class in secondary school, when we had these little cassette recorders, we had to record a conversation and then listen back to it.

And you always had this feeling like, oh, it sounds so terrible.

And I think I have the same feeling about the podcast, right?

Listening back to the podcast and, Rob, you're on TV all the time.

Maybe you get used to it.

I don't know.

And you talked about this.

It's awkward when there's a mismatch between how you thought you were coming across and how you realize you are actually coming across to people.

And there was this phrase you referenced, I think it's called the irreconcilable gap, which I thought was really interesting.

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah, this was that hearing your own voice, hating the sound of your own voice was one of the things that sort of like unlocked a whole piece of this for me in a way.

Because there's like an actual reason why your voice doesn't sound the same.

Like I guess it's like, I'm hearing my voice through the bones in my own skull, which makes it sound different.

That makes the audio sound different than someone else is hearing my voice.

So it literally sounds different to me than it does to someone else.

So yeah, to me that like that goes along with that idea that I think a lot of, you know, awkward moments come from like, oh, I thought I was putting myself, like presenting myself this way, but I actually came off this other way, you know, like I thought I was presenting myself as like this competent person, but turns out I had a, you know, stain on my shirt the entire time or something like that.

Jono Hey:
I thought the joke was a good example.

If you tell a joke and nobody laughs, here's something that you thought was really funny, and then you realize that nobody else thinks it's really funny.

Melissa Dahl:
Oh yeah, or you tell a story that you think is like, oh, this is like so interesting, and you know, people still listening or don't react the way, you know, yeah, exactly.

Rob Bell:
But that's where you just get right up, I'm going home, can't deal with this.

Melissa Dahl:
Or you know, it happens in kind of in a very like telling way on social media, like you post something that you think is funny, and people just take it a totally different way, or nobody notices it at all, or you know, you can like see by the number of like, how much it resonated or whatever.

Tom Pellereau:
Do you remember the podcast we did with Rob, where we had to leave long pauses?

We had to leave long pauses.

Rob Bell:
Well, I had a question about this.

We did a whole episode on awkward silences.

Well, no, it wasn't awkward silence.

Tom Pellereau:
No, it wasn't about awkward silence.

Rob Bell:
It was called, don't fill the silence.

So say what you have to say and then carry on.

And Jono, and to a lesser extent Tommy, does this all the time.

And so there was actually a lot of silence recorded on that podcast episode.

I don't know how much people enjoyed it.

But I was going to ask about that silence.

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah.

Rob Bell:
The awkward silence, how long before it's awkward?

And again, does it come back to you starting to think about yourself now because nothing else is happening?

Melissa Dahl:
I think so, yeah.

And that kind of makes me think so.

I mean, whatever.

There's like, I don't know, I'll take this with a grain of salt.

But there's like some study that I think said that it's like four seconds when it's how long it takes for silence to feel awkward.

Okay.

With a grain of salt, whatever.

I don't know if that's true.

But yeah, I do think it kind of makes you.

You start kind of turning back into yourself.

And I do think that's like also one reason to maybe become more comfortable with awkwardness is so you can like summit Cringe Mountain, whatever.

But another one is like, if you can tolerate awkward silences, like you really kind of put yourself in like a pretty, pretty good position, like, maybe in like a salary negotiation or something, if you just say your number and then just like back off.

I mean, therapists kind of talk about using this in the room with their clients, just letting the silence sit there and then the person kind of like gets talking.

I mean, again, kind of as a journalist, today I've been working through a lot of transcriptions listening back to things that I am not so good at.

There are times when I'm like, shut up, they were going to say something interesting.

So I think it really can be like a little bit of a superpower if you can just learn to, to sit with it.

Rob Bell:
I will link to that episode because I think, yeah, that is really nice to hear from you, Melissa, about that.

Yeah, superpower, Jono.

Jono Hey:
I don't know about that.

I really wanted to ask also because you had a term that you called your growth edge.

I wondered if you wouldn't mind just touching on what you meant by that in relation to awkwardness.

Melissa Dahl:
I mean, it's kind of like another thing that in retrospect, I wish I had come up with cuter names for this stuff.

But I think it's actually similar to what that TikToker called Cringe Mountain, which I think is a more marketable version of the same thing I was talking about, which is just the idea that on the other side of tolerating this pesky little emotion, there probably is some growth to be found.

There probably is some really good stuff on the other side.

If you can tolerate being bad at writing for a while, you'll probably get better at it.

If you can tolerate, I don't know, applying for a million jobs and putting yourself out there like that, then you'll learn from those experience and hopefully you'll get better at that process too.

Yeah, there's some real growth I think to be found on the other side of tolerating awkwardness.

Rob Bell:
How could we summarize this conversation to maybe help some of our listeners feel better about awkward situations?

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah, I guess that it's just, it is an emotion that kind of sends little like panic, like alarm bells in your brain, but it's not necessarily something to run away from and to avoid.

And there can be some real benefits to learning to tolerate the discomfort and the uncertainty, which is not easy, but tolerating it, like being patient and getting to the other side.

Jono Hey:
Rob, I was going to ask, your scenario of you in the pub with Tim Keyes.

Rob Bell:
Tim Keyes, yeah.

Jono Hey:
You felt so awkward that you couldn't join in the conversation and then you just left with this person that you really liked and wanted to speak with.

Rob Bell:
Ideally, we'd be best mates by now.

Jono Hey:
So I know that this is, like Melissa kind of started with like, I was looking for a checklist and I didn't find a checklist.

However, during the conversation, there were some things which I thought came up, which I thought were quite nice.

One of them was thinking about the goal.

Like the big picture of, hang on, I'm here with Tim.

Rob Bell:
Be his best mate, yep.

Jono Hey:
Another one was, you said you were feeling really awkward about how you're getting it.

So another one was focus outside of yourself.

So focus on something else.

Rob Bell:
Great, yep.

Jono Hey:
Another one we talked about was reframing anxiety as excitement.

So you could have felt excited.

And another one would be like, which was recognizing that the fact that you felt awkward was because you really cared and really, you should appreciate, use that to appreciate this moment.

And so I was wondering if you could, if you were to like put yourself back in that moment and you were to apply those things, like how would that go for you?

Rob Bell:
Yes.

Do you know, I was thinking about all of that in relation to the Timkey scenario throughout.

And I think what I would be able to do best, because I didn't have anything great to say, I don't think that would necessarily change.

But what I, I, I can't talk about it.

Jono Hey:
It was so horrible.

Tom Pellereau:
You've got to.

Rob Bell:
I think, all right.

So what I can do is come through the other side and go, no, that's all right.

That's okay.

I've learnt from that.

And next time, I will feel better.

And hey, turns out I'm quite an empathetic person because I care about it.

And isn't that nice?

I can take those two away.

I don't know what else I would have done differently at the time, but maybe I will try and wangle another point with Tim Key via our friend at some point.

Tom Pellereau:
It's a shout out to him now, right?

I think it's a lovely thing to be aware of that the vortex exists kind of thing.

Rob Bell:
Yes, you're right.

Tom Pellereau:
And that you're in the vortex.

And maybe if you'd be like, I'm not actually in a vortex.

This is completely my making that would have made you chill.

And I love Cringe Mountain.

Melissa Dahl:
Isn't that so good?

Tom Pellereau:
It's really cool.

This kind of like concept that you're climbing up and there is a peak of Cringe Mountain and then it's kind of plain sailing down the other side potentially.

Melissa Dahl:
And it's all worth it thinking like it might be more of a mountain range, but you know.

Rob Bell:
From what we've discussed, this is all part of the rich tapestry of life and emotions that make us human, right?

Melissa, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your expertise with us.

It is a fascinating, compelling topic.

And I think the reason why we enjoy talking about it so much is because it's so relatable.

Everybody feels awkward at some point.

Thank you, Melissa.

Melissa Dahl:
Yes, yes, absolutely.

It is a pretty funny topic to be an expert in, but I'll take it.

Rob Bell:
Before we let you go, Melissa, what are you working on at the moment?

Is there anything that you've got coming up that you'd like to tell us and our listeners about?

Melissa Dahl:
I'm working on a second book, but I'm not kind of in detail sharing mode yet, unfortunately, and then I'm writing a health column for New York Magazine, which is going to launch soon.

Rob Bell:
Well, we will keep an eye out for what that second book is when you are in detail sharing mode.

I also noted and Jono noted as well, that you're a very keen runner, is that right?

Melissa Dahl:
That is true, yes.

Rob Bell:
Are you in training for anything at the moment?

Melissa Dahl:
Well, so I had a baby last year, and so definitely took some time off, but I'm doing my first race post-baby in May, I'm doing the Brooklyn half.

Rob Bell:
Oh, fantastic.

Melissa Dahl:
Yeah, that'll be fun.

It's a really fun race.

It's the start is like 10 minutes from my front door, and then you end at Coney Island.

So it's really fun.

Rob Bell:
What a great way to come back into it.

Melissa Dahl:
I hope so.

Yeah, a ringer is grass.

Rob Bell:
Well, all the very, very best of luck.

I'm very excited for you for that.

And if you'd like to delve a little deeper into this topic, then I would highly recommend to get in your hands on Melissa's book, Cringeworthy, A Theory of Awkwardness.

And I will leave a link to it in the episode show notes down below.

Jono Hey:
It's so interesting.

You just get sucked in and you just keep reading.

I keep looking at it, thinking there's like 50 sketches I need to do from this book.

It's just brilliant.

I've already done like a bunch of others.

Actually, we didn't even talk about like front stage, backstage, which we also did a podcast episode on.

Melissa Dahl:
Oh, that's so great.

Thanks to you guys for that.

This was a really thoughtful conversation.

I appreciate it.

Rob Bell:
Oh, good.

Tom Pellereau:
Thank you.

Rob Bell:
And as everyone now looks to me to sign off this episode, I can start to feel my hands get a bit sweaty.

Oh, God, I'm not sure whether to look at the camera or just stare at my microphone.

Oh, no, everyone knows I don't have anything witty or clever to say.

Oh, God.

Go well.

Melissa Dahl:
Stay well.

Goodbye.

Rob Bell:
All music on this podcast series is provided by the very talented Franc Cinelli.

And you can find many more tracks at franccinelli.com.