Picking A Present

Jono Hey:
The Classic List of Gifts is the Wedding Registry.

It's a really clear example of your choices and what you go through in your head when you're making decisions about buying gifts.

I'd be interested to know, like, how do you choose?

Tom Pellereau:
At first, I used to ignore the list, I think the first wedding I went to, because I was like, oh, I don't want any of this boring stuff.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jono Hey:
A lot of this conversation is about how it makes you feel as a gift giver.

Is that something that you thought that they ought to like?

Tom Pellereau:
Or did you really do it for yourself?

Rob Bell:
Well, there's a little bit of that.

So something you think they like, yes.

Something you think they ought to like, yes.

Something they like, no, not really.

Something I like, yes.

Tom Pellereau:
There we go.

Jono Hey:
Which very often happens, doesn't it?

Rob Bell:
Hello and welcome to Sketchplanations The Podcast, a fortnightly foray into observations and curiosities of the world, inspired by the collection of sketches at sketchplanations.com.

I'm engineer and broadcaster Rob Bell, and with me is designer and creator of Sketchplanations Hey, and esteemed entrepreneur and past winner of The Apprentice Tom Pellereau.

Jono Hey:
Hello!

Rob Bell:
This time we've picked a sketch and a topic that's wholeheartedly subjective, which doesn't happen that often.

The sketch is entitled Picking a Present, and it's based on Jono's thoughts and experience with selecting the perfect gift for someone, proposing that you might get a lot closer by taking some time to consider a few overlapping factors.

We'll let Jono explain in a sec.

You should be able to see the sketch for this up on your screens now, but if you want to see it in a larger format, as well as exploring sketches on many more topics, then follow the link in the show notes below or head to sketchplanations.com.

And if you'd like to get in touch with us concerning anything we talk about in this episode or any of the others, then you can send your emails to hello at sketchplanations.com Thank you, Tommy.

And I reckon perhaps more than ever before, this is an episode that I'd really love to hear from our listeners on because preparing a great present for someone feels amazing when you know you've pulled it off.

And I'm totally open to hear whatever tips and hints our listeners have on that.

That said, hopefully we'll also be able to give you food for thought in your future present buying too.

So, Jono, do you want to talk us through the sketch?

Talk us through what we're seeing there and then we can get into justifying these three present buying factors that you propose and see what stories around presents and gift giving we have amongst us.

Jono Hey:
Sure.

And you made it sound a bit more grand like I'd spent years researching this than I actually was.

But you also raised some interesting examples in the little intro there, which maybe we can come back to because what I was really trying to get here, and so to put this really simple sketch, pick a present.

This is a Venn diagram.

I've not done many Venn diagrams.

Some people literally have made books solely of like fun Venn diagrams.

They are fun.

Yeah, Venn diagrams is always a fun little thing, especially if you find some interesting things in your circles to overlap.

So this was really that you might think that a gift is really about what somebody wants.

But I have repeatedly noticed that when buying a gift, it seems to be not solely just about what they want.

And so that's what the genesis of this is.

And so essentially, what I was trying to get across here, whether or not I managed it, was obviously you're trying to find something they like, right?

So you want to get something that people like.

So that's one of the circles.

That's number one.

Now, you don't know everything they like.

So another one of the circles is something you think that they like.

And that may or may not be whatever they actually like.

And then there's this sort of curious other one, which is like things which you think are okay to like, or you think they ought to like, like you like, and you think that they should like.

And so that's kind of like the last category.

I can't really say it, but I think when we get to some examples, we'll get to that.

So I mean, the sketch was something you think they ought to like.

But I guess what I was really trying to get there is that there's a crossover between something in your values also in when you're choosing presents.

And maybe this is maybe this is not everybody, but I think it's many people.

So we'll see how it goes.

Rob Bell:
That's so funny you've explained it like that, because there's something you think they ought to like.

In my notes here, I put, is the most controversial.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rob Bell:
And so the idea, Jono, and the idea of Venn diagrams generally is that where these circles overlap in the middle, bang, that's your sweet spot.

That's your perfect gift.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, I think I just drew them more or less equally overlapping.

And that's usually not at all the case.

And the fun thing about Venn diagrams is, you know, there's really no science to it.

You're just like, yeah, you know, the sizes of bits that overlap or don't overlap.

But yeah, when you've got three circles, you can put a beautiful little space in the middle, which is your sweet spot, which is something that they like, something that you thought that they would like, and also something that perhaps fits with your values as well.

And if you get all of those right, then you've then it's probably going to be a great present all around.

Rob Bell:
I'm also very pleased and amazed in some senses, Jono, that you can remember your thought process behind doing this.

Because from the style of the sketch, I know this is one that you did a long time ago.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, you know, it's probably like sketch number 10 or something like that.

Yeah, I'll probably redo it by the time the podcast comes out.

But it literally depends.

I drew around probably a circle thing that was on the desk and I made a mistake and I not corrected.

Rob Bell:
Tom So well done for remembering your motivation, I guess, and what prompted you to do it?

Jono Hey:
I still think about it.

I still think about it.

We'll get to some examples.

Rob Bell:
Tom As I said in the intro, I hope our listeners find this useful because I know I'm going to come out of this conversation.

I hope I come out of this conversation feeling that I'm a bit better equipped in my gift buying now, which I'd say I'm okay at.

But sometimes if I don't have inspiration, it can be really difficult, I find.

It's nice to come back to something and go, okay, well, let me ask myself these questions about this and maybe that will spur something on.

Jono Hey:
Well, I should say that this was more of an observation than a prescription.

I don't propose to be like, here's the guide to buying smart gifts.

It's more...

Rob Bell:
Toby Are you saying you haven't written a research paper?

Jono Hey:
No, I didn't actually.

Rob Bell:
Toby So before we get into it, can I ask how we all feel we are about buying gifts?

Like, would you say you're good gift buyers?

Would you say you're particularly inspired gift buyers?

How do you feel about it?

Jono Hey:
Erratic is what I would say.

Tom Pellereau:
Toby That probably sums me up as well.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, sometimes really on it.

And you feel like you've done a really good job for somebody and other times, you know, late, not at all.

Didn't consider it.

I apologize to everybody who I was, you know, late with gifts or forgot or didn't even think to bring a gift or whatever it was.

Yeah.

So yeah, erratic.

Rob Bell:
Toby Same with you, Tommy.

Tom Pellereau:
Toby Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I'm also quite erratic at actually remembering them.

And I think, I think the first two, maybe even three Christmases I spent with Sarah, because that, you know, when you're a kind of new couple, you tend to get away to their folks or your folks.

And I think I left them in the flat in London.

I think I genuinely might have done it three years in a row.

At some time, for people I know well, I really enjoy buying presents.

Rob Bell:
Particularly around Christmas where there are, there's more than one gift that you're buying and you've got a list of things to buy for different people.

If I don't have a really strong inspiration for a gift, I can get quite stressed about it.

Like, oh, because I don't want to buy a generic kind of piece of tat type thing.

I'm loathe to do that.

And so I get quite stressed about not being inspired.

But as you've both said, when you do have that inspiration and you feel like I've got this, this is great, that feels amazing.

I can sometimes and have in the past been extremely embarrassed about giving presents.

Not because I think they're rubbish.

There are a couple of examples I have in my mind where I was so pleased with what I'd got as a gift.

But I'm just embarrassed at that whole process of giving a gift and then expecting this kind of, oh, wow, type thing.

What I've done in the past is when I've been to visit some friends and it's a time when I would be giving a gift.

I'll save giving the gift right to the end before I'm about to leave and go, oh, there's this here.

Yeah, open it in your own time and then get out of there.

So I don't have to be there when the gifts are opened.

I find it a bit, I don't know, a bit ikky or I have done in the past sometimes.

Jono Hey:
Why do you find it ikky, do you think?

Rob Bell:
I don't know.

Maybe it's because I don't want to be witnessed to anything but an exceptional reaction.

Jono Hey:
Somebody going, oh, thank you.

Yeah.

Rob Bell:
And in particular, I'm thinking, I'm thinking gifts with kids, that I've given to kids, like, I don't know, God children, God daughters, God sons, that kind of thing, where I know it's a great gift.

And in the future, they'll like it at some point.

But I think it might not have gone down as well as, I don't know.

Tom Pellereau:
And kids are pretty brutal with that.

Like, they can be kind of amazed and overwhelmed.

And that's what you're hoping for.

And they can be like, yeah, just check it to one side.

Rob Bell:
And I know that emotionally, I'd probably be hurt by that.

Yeah.

Even though I know it's just the kid and I'm an adult and I should be able to ride above that.

But I know I'd be emotionally hurt.

And so I'd rather just not experience it.

Tom Pellereau:
You'd have to trip him up later.

Rob Bell:
You know, does that does that make sense?

Jono Hey:
I think that's a really good example.

So that was for those kids, right?

If you take that that Venn diagram, that was something you think that perhaps they want to like.

Well, they they're probably like in the future.

And you thought that they would like it now.

But it turned out they didn't.

So you you weren't in the sweet spot.

You were in the bit of the one of the off the top left.

Yeah, well, you missed the sweetest spot with the gift.

But, you know, maybe it will grow on them and move towards this over time.

I don't know.

Rob Bell:
One of one of my favorite ways of giving a gift to somebody is if it's something I've made for many years, I really enjoyed doing that.

I don't have quite as much time at the moment to do that.

But when I had when time was on my side, I could go into my workshop and I could make stuff and I did that quite a bit for my for my niece and for nephews and for godchildren, but also for adult friends as well.

I've made stuff in the past and sometimes I've given people a gift for no reason just because I've enjoyed making something that I thought, oh, that would be a nice little creative project and I could do it for that person.

I'll do that.

And then utter confusion when the gift has been handed over to the person and they go, what's this?

And they go, right, wow, okay, okay.

Jono Hey:
Because they weren't expecting it.

Rob Bell:
Because they weren't expecting it, but also it's, right, so I'll give you an example.

So a very, very good friend of mine is also a mutual friend of both of yours.

We went on a trip together and we had a number of photos from that trip that were quite iconic and stirred really strong memories for all of us.

It was a great trip and one of them was this silhouette of the three of us.

I turned that photo into a cross stitch pattern and then I cross stitched, I think there were 4,000 stitches in this picture that I created in cross stitch and it took me months to do it.

And I did it and I framed it up really, really nice.

I just handed it to him once as a gift wrapped.

I just went around there for a barbecue or something and opened it up and I was like, wow, what's this?

But I loved doing it and I loved giving it because I knew it was funny.

Our friend would not have expected a cross-stitched picture of something that I'd framed for him to put up on his wall somewhere.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
What a brilliant present.

Is that something that you thought that they ought to like more than they did?

Rob Bell:
Great.

Thank you, Jono.

Jono Hey:
This is excellent.

Because of all the effort you put in or because of the memory or the fact that you were cross-stitching?

Tom Pellereau:
Or did you really do it for yourself?

Rob Bell:
Well, there's a little bit of that.

So, something you think they like, yes.

Something you think they ought to like, yes.

Something they like, no, not really.

Something I like, yes.

Jono Hey:
Which very often happens, doesn't it?

I mean, there's something about like Christmas shopping, where you're walking around the shops and you see something you really like and think, oh, Tom would really like that.

But actually, you'd really like that.

Tom Pellereau:
But Jono, you are very good at giving gifts like that because you and I are quite similar as us.

It's something that you see that's cool.

Jono is brilliant at giving gifts.

I regularly receive lovely little items.

And it's like, yeah, that's really cool.

But also, it's quite easy for the three of us to buy gifts for each other because we're very similar.

So if we see something that's cool, it's very likely.

Rob Bell:
But what I love about Jono's gift giving, in my experience, is that it's often unexpected.

Not the fact that there is a gift.

I'm talking about birthdays.

He's very good at giving you birthday presents.

But it's something that you go, wow, what is this?

Or like, oh, that's cool.

Where's this?

And there's always a story or there's always something behind it.

I'll try that.

That looks great.

Jono Hey:
Thank you.

I mean, I'm sure that I don't nail it all the time.

But I think that's a really interesting example because that's one of the things that made me think about this, which made me do this sketch so long ago.

And I actually used to use, I used to use, like, getting a gift for people as a design exercise when I taught some design workshops, because I think it's really interesting because designing new products is often about finding unmet needs, things that people were doing some way and didn't really, you didn't really realize you needed this.

And then you see this thing and you're like, Oh, of course I need, I need that thing.

And so you somehow know the people so well that you saw something that they didn't know that they wanted, but you bought it for them.

And then they did want it.

And I think that's like an ideal sort of situation for a gift.

You can buy gifts so much more easily for people if you really know them.

And the ones you really struggle are the ones where you don't really know enough about the person.

And that's just why I think it's an interesting sort of design exercise.

Because like if you're going to go buy a good gift for people, first of all, you got to go find out what they want, find out what they like.

And then ideally, you find something that they didn't even know that they wanted.

Rob Bell:
Can I give an example of what that has been recently from you, Jono?

Yeah, it was a piece of fruit that I'd never seen before or even heard of.

I can't even say I can't remember what I can't remember what it was now.

But it was amazing seeing it.

What's this?

And you told me the name, but I can't remember what it was.

Jono Hey:
Do you remember what it was?

Rob Bell:
There are a couple of pieces actually in this lovely little presentation box.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, it wasn't a Chirimiah, was it maybe?

Rob Bell:
Oh yeah, maybe.

Maybe.

It looked kind of like a mix between an orange, a peach and an apple, all sorts of.

It was cool.

It was great.

I said, what is this?

I said, there's a great story with it.

And then you get to experience something new for the first time, which is exciting.

I loved it.

It was great.

Jono Hey:
Brilliant.

I read this somewhere.

You often overvalue novelty in gifts, like something has to be new and surprising.

Like it's surprising to get a cross-stitched photo of an experience, right?

But it's not necessarily useful.

And maybe they loved it.

But one good channel for gifts is find stuff that's kind of maybe boring, but very useful.

You're actually going to use this thing every day and go, Oh, this is good.

And I remember reading that maybe you should just find something in your life that you found is really useful, that you want to use a lot and just go, well, maybe they don't have this.

And if you get a lot of value from it, maybe they will too.

So, Tom, I remember buying you some kitchen scissors.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, I was going to bring those up.

Jono Hey:
Were you?

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, they're very good.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

Well, I remember them being really good kitchen scissors.

And every time I look at them, I was like, oh, this is really...

Rob Bell:
Because why?

He was like trying to cut stuff with pliers or something.

Tom Pellereau:
No reason.

I just received a pair of scissors from Jono and a note saying, these are the best scissors I've ever owned.

I thought you'd like them.

Happy birthday.

Happy Christmas.

I remember.

And now because they overlap and they click together so you can take them apart and put them in the dishwasher.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, that's like the main feature, which is really clever.

And I think it's really good.

And I get pleasure using these scissors on a really boring, mundane level of pleasure.

But on the other hand, they're really useful.

So it's a pretty, pretty strange.

You don't get that wow when you open the present.

You're like, oh, scissors.

But on the other hand, maybe you get some ongoing joy.

So maybe the boring but useful things is one channel to do.

Rob Bell:
This was interesting, I was having this conversation with my wife earlier, I was talking that we're coming on here, and she was talking about the difference between a gift that's a surprise versus a gift straight off of a list of nowadays of URLs that they've sent you.

And you're like, yeah, that'll do great, she said she wants that, so I know she wants that.

I don't even think she wants it, I know she wants that, and it should be in the sweet spot, I think, yeah.

It should be in the sweet spot with those parameters, but there's no element of surprise to it.

It's like, oh great, you got me what I wanted.

Cool.

Jono Hey:
Well, no, but I think that's a really interesting point because like the research I've seen on gift giving suggests, as I said, that people overvalued the novelty in giving a gift, whereas actually getting something that you've asked for is actually usually seen by the recipients as really valued, but we don't think that they'll value it as much as some novel thing that we find for them.

That's a surprise.

Yeah.

But actually people really appreciate when you buy stuff that they know that they like.

Rob Bell:
I mean, it's in the sweet spot, isn't it, on the diagram?

Jono Hey:
It is.

Rob Bell:
Well.

When they've sent you a link and you've gone, all right, I'll buy that.

Jono Hey:
So if they send you four links, four different products, and you look at them and you're like, oh, I like that one, I like that one, that's good.

And you're like, don't like that.

You're probably not going to buy them the one that you don't think is good.

Rob Bell:
Yes.

Good point.

Jono Hey:
Or like, let's say it's a teenager and they want a vaping device and some cash and something and a book, right?

And you're like, I don't approve of them getting into vaping, let's say.

Rob Bell:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
So I'm not going to buy that one, even if that is the thing that they've said they want it and they make you happy.

And so that for me is my like, that third one, which is something I sort of think that they ought to like.

And I, I even though they like vaping, and that might make them happy.

I'm not going to buy them that.

Rob Bell:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
And I always think this comes to a head sort of on the you mentioned like buying from a list of gifts, like the classic list of gifts is the wedding registry.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, it's good put.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
And it's like a really, it's a really clear example of your choices and what you go through in your head when you're making decisions about buying gifts.

I'd be interested to know like, how do you choose on a wedding registry when you're buying gifts for people?

Rob Bell:
In the past, if there is an option of an item, or also on that list is an experience on the honeymoon, like spa treatments, or I don't know, a boat ride or something where they're going, I'll always go for the experience over the item.

Tom Pellereau:
Nice.

At first, I used to ignore the list.

I think the first one I went to, because I was like, I don't want any of this boring stuff.

I'm going to get something.

And I've got a really nice salad bowl, quite a decorated one, which I'm pretty certain probably went straight to the charity place for the couple I gave it to.

And then sort of from then on, I kind of really realized, actually, if people say they want these plates or something, then get the plates, because they obviously, they've thought quite a long time about these plates.

And especially if they want 10 and someone's bought six and there's four left, it's like, we'll just get the four plates.

It's like, seemingly, internally, you kind of feel that's the most rubbish gift to give.

But at the same time, it's clear that they wanted 10 of those plates.

So just get them what they want, which is the 10 plates.

And well, it's maybe be a bit more creative with the cards that you give or something, yeah, but, you know, get them what they wanted.

Rob Bell:
That's two out of three of on the Venn diagram again, it's something you think they like and something they like.

But again, it's the something you think they ought to like that doesn't get its box ticked on that one, right?

Jono Hey:
I don't know, if you were into cooking, you might be really excited about buying the nice bit of cooking gear that they put on the list.

And if you were really sporty and somebody put a little, you know, garden sports thing on their list, you might be inclined to get that because it perhaps like reflects a bit of your values and makes you happy to give something which sort of connects you guys in that way.

It's funny, I mean, in a lot of this conversation, that the thought is about how it makes you feel as a gift giver.

Because it's funny, you know, just like, oh, just buy the plates.

It feels like a rubbish gift.

It's not a rubbish gift because they want the plates.

Otherwise, they wouldn't have put them on there.

Yeah, not a rubbish gift.

But it doesn't feel great as a as a gift giver.

Rob Bell:
And if there's no joy in it, is there for the for the for the give the give?

Jono Hey:
Not the same.

It feels a bit more like not transactional, except is, except is, you know, it's just, I'll swap my money for your happiness, please.

But you don't get that, that, that excitement of like, Oh, I found you this amazing thing, which is uniquely about our relationship together and the things we've been through together in life.

And like, that feels better as a gift, but it's not about you.

Or is it?

Maybe it is.

Maybe it is.

Maybe gift giving really is about the giver as well as the, as the recipient.

Rob Bell:
Now that you've said it, and I think, Mac, I will always tend to veer towards the gifts on there that I think I'd enjoy.

Because I feel like there's a bit more joy in giving that then.

I wonder if that is just a subconscious attraction towards those.

Jono Hey:
No, that's why, that's why there's that, there's that thing, you know, like, if you're into food, and it's nice to buy somebody a restaurant experience, you know, rather than the car driving experience, if you're not into cars, even though they love cars, you know.

Or maybe, if you're a really good gift giver, you're good enough at putting that aside, and you purely focus altruistically on the happiness of the recipient, and just do that.

I don't know.

Yeah.

Rob Bell:
It's definitely the most interesting of the circles, isn't it?

It really is the something you think they ought to like.

It's the one that's prompting the most discussion.

I love it.

Tom Pellereau:
I want to hear some stories about good and bad gifts, in the hindsight, good and bad.

And obviously, I'm more interested in the bad ones.

Rob Bell:
Of course.

And I was thinking about this.

OK, so you go, because I thought we'd reference there are good and bad gifts that we both received and given.

But I thought no one wants to talk about the bad gifts they've been given.

Tom Pellereau:
I wasn't necessarily going to talk about the bad gifts I've received, although I will come to that one day.

The worst gift I have given is when we first started going out with Sarah.

Christmas, I think, came relatively soon, and I got it heroically wrong in the fact that, and partially because I didn't know her very well at the time, maybe I'll try and use that as an excuse, in the fact that I gave her, and there are women listening to this who will just be throwing stuff at the radio, because I gave her a slow cooker for Christmas.

Yeah, but my understanding is that they were quite useful and that she might like that.

In the 1970s, isn't it?

Exactly, exactly.

Rob Bell:
For housewives in the 1970s.

Tom Pellereau:
I was a little bit shocked as to quite how badly it was received and how it continues to come up.

That one, I thought, something I thought they might like, but I failed very dizzily.

Jono Hey:
As an adult, a bad present I bought was this wine, which was in a remarkable bottle, which was shaped like a cockerel.

I've never seen a wine bottle shaped like a cockerel, and I thought that would be quite fun.

But it turned out the wine was absolutely awful.

Rob Bell:
Surprised.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, which is to nobody's surprise.

Rob Bell:
So, you know, you're shatting after Pat, don't serve there.

Jono Hey:
They don't normally do it in a novelty, cockerel shaped bottle.

Yeah, it's funny.

Rob Bell:
Yeah.

Can I ask what your, have you got a kind of go-to thank you present for, you've been invited around someone's house for dinner, or after that you're going to go and stay with some friends for a weekend.

I have a kind of go-to thank you gift at the moment, and I feel like it changes maybe once every two or three years.

But at the moment, what I'm going for A, it's very middle-class, and B, it's probably, I think it's happening quite a bit at the moment, like a really nice, unknown, small brand olive oil in an interesting shaped bottle or with an interesting label.

Tom Pellereau:
Have you bought 10 of them that you can just give like the same?

Have you bought 10 different ones?

Rob Bell:
No, but that's a kind of a good plan.

But part of it is, I really enjoy going out and looking at them going, oh, that's quite different, a bit fancy, we'll get that, that's nice.

Jono Hey:
It's interesting because I did a little bit of research asking a few people about how they choose presents.

And one of the things they said is that because you don't want to give tat or like just stock presents for the sake of it, food is always a good one.

Rob Bell:
A consumable, yeah.

Jono Hey:
And I suppose food in particular, I mean, fireworks is a consumable in some ways, maybe fireworks is good.

But food is a good one.

And they mentioned...

Tom Pellereau:
I'm going to start giving that.

That's a great idea.

Jono Hey:
To the three year olds.

Rob Bell:
Box of fireworks.

Jono Hey:
No, but she actually mentioned a nice, a bit more expensive olive oil than you might buy yourself.

Rob Bell:
Thank you very much.

Yes, exactly.

Jono Hey:
That's always a good one because it feels a bit special.

You're going to use it and it's going to make you feel good every time, every time you use it and you wouldn't buy it yourself.

Rob Bell:
I have, I have a story about this.

I don't know if I've told you this or not, Jono.

And it's kind of, how would I describe this?

It's, I don't know, disingenuine is the right word.

You can tell me what the word is afterwards.

It's me.

It's basically me telling you what a great guy I am.

Through a gift that you never, you never got.

Have I told you this about olive oil?

Jono Hey:
Not sure.

Rob Bell:
Oh, well, let me tell you then, because then you can, you can see me in a whole new light.

So we went, you and I went and did a cool experience a few years ago.

We did a swim run down in the south of France and you start on this island.

And on that island, there's a monastery where they make a little bit of wine and a little bit of olive oil.

I happened to go back to that island probably about eight months or so, half a year or so after you and I did that race and I wasn't racing and I bought some olive oil from that place to give to you at your next birthday.

Cut to a few weeks later when I went away with work or something and my wife just found a bottle of olive oil and opened it and started using it willy-nilly and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

What, what, what, why is this olive oil open?

Especially because there's the other one, Batooli, but whatever opened already in only half a year.

Why have you opened this one?

She goes, I found it.

I thought it looked nice.

Yeah, it does look nice.

I bought it for Jono.

It was very expensive.

And it has sentimental value.

So you never got that gift.

No, you haven't.

Tom Pellereau:
That's really, you didn't.

You didn't just refill it with a bit of olive oil.

I could have.

I thought that's how the story is going to end.

Jono, oh yeah, I remember that.

Rob Bell:
I remember that.

Jono Hey:
Same as the shake.

Tom Pellereau:
It'll be fine.

Rob Bell:
Wasn't as big as it may have been.

Jono Hey:
Oh, mate, that's really nice.

Thank you.

Rob Bell:
Well, it's all right.

You never got it.

Jono Hey:
Well, I just got all the thoughts of it.

And I think you're a great guy as a result.

Rob Bell:
That's really why I told you that.

That's why I chose to do this sketch in this episode.

So finally, I could relay you that story, and you could see me for the true gift giver that I am.

Generous gift giver that I am.

Jono Hey:
Hero.

Tom Pellereau:
Thank you.

I've got a question.

That's all right.

Is there an aspect of the hunter-gatherer aspect to this, that the guy wants to be the hero, that he's come back to the camp, and he's got a lion slayed over his shoulder, and then everyone will be able to eat as a result?

Is that a thing about gifts with guys, is that we want to appear with this hugely novel, more hugely amazing gift, and that's possibly where we as guys go wrong, in the fact that actually something that's a little bit more useful and boring and on the list is actually much more what's called for?

Rob Bell:
I've certainly seen that dramatised a few times, the kind of one-upmanship of gift giving, right?

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

Rob Bell:
And especially, as you say, amongst males, I think, Tommy, yeah.

I don't know as I've ever done that myself, or been aware of doing that myself.

Jono Hey:
I think there's an episode of The Office where they do a secret Santa and it's $20 max gift.

And I think Michael Scott puts in an iPod as one of the gifts.

Rob Bell:
Good example of exactly that.

Jono Hey:
And all it makes is, you know, mega awkwardness.

Rob Bell:
But all he wants is people to see him as the hero, as you say to me.

Jono Hey:
What a generous guy.

Rob Bell:
What a guy.

Jono Hey:
He's given away this fancy, amazing thing.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
It is interesting, isn't it?

How, like, if you're giving a gift, there is something, especially if you find a special gift, that you might be excited about the reaction.

It is making you happy as a gift giver about what the potential outcome is.

Tom Pellereau:
What I do really enjoy about giving gifts is that if you can get it right for that person, something that would be a really bad gift for many people can be perfect for that person.

Jono Hey:
Well, and that olive oil from the island is a great example.

And that's why I think there's that, you know, that connection of like something an idea one is like something that is uniquely about you and them that they also like is a brilliant gift if you can get it, but failing that by something off the list.

Maybe Tom, to your point about bringing home with a lion on your shoulder, I was thinking as a kid, I just remember like some of the presents, particularly from my dad when he went away, and he'd go to the US sometimes for conferences, and he'd come back and he'd open his suitcase.

I was really excited to be by the suitcase to see what he brought back.

The perfect thing was just a bunch of packs of Reese's chocolate.

I was like, this is amazing.

I was like, what a hero.

Rob Bell:
This goes at a time where you couldn't get that in the UK.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, exactly.

What an amazing dad.

He's brought me some chocolate from the airport.

But I thought it was brilliant, you know?

Tom Pellereau:
And your mum's like, I've had to look after them all week.

And you come back, I've done all this work, and you've come back with some chocolate bars, which is going to keep them up all night.

Rob Bell:
Oh, man, that is total insight into that moment there, Tommy.

Yeah.

Oh, God, right.

Tom Pellereau:
I only know that because I've just done the same.

I was in China last week, and I brought some gifts back, and they were mega.

And I'm sure Sarah probably thought, why don't we come back and hear the hero?

And I've had to look after them.

Rob Bell:
Do you know the line on the shoulder thing, if we want to use that as our symbolic metaphor for this?

Yeah, I think I did do that one Christmas.

It was the first year that I had had a job throughout the year.

And so I had a little bit more money than I'd ever had before.

And I just went nuts on my family.

I spent way more than I should have done.

I ended up paying for that for a long time, but it just felt good.

I've got a bit of money.

Yeah, I'll buy my mat.

I'll buy dad this.

And now that I think back at it, it probably was a little bit lying over the shoulder.

God, I mean, you just realised that?

Jono Hey:
You had to tone it down for future Christmases.

Rob Bell:
Yes, that was not sustainable, that level of gift buying.

Not on that salary anyway.

Jono Hey:
One of the things on the dad theme, just really quick.

Now, my parents, basically, if they want something now, they buy it.

Rob Bell:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
So there's always this question like, what do you buy for somebody who's already bought the things that they actually want?

I think that's always an interesting challenge when you're considering presents.

The other thing was that he started as I've got two siblings, buying each of us the same book, or in one case, he bought three different books.

And the idea was that we read it, and then you give it to the sibling, and you read it.

And you do that through the year.

And it's sort of this like, it's like dad's reading club.

And I think that's lovely, which is actually really nice, because as siblings, we all read the same book.

They're all books where he's done a lot of the something you think they ought to like.

You guys don't know about this.

You've never read this author.

I think you'll really like it.

I think you ought to know about it.

So I'm going to pick these books out.

And then we all read it together.

And we have sort of an experience, because we're all reading it together.

We can talk about it throughout the year and afterwards.

And it's a really nice thing to do, actually, because it only costs a few books as well.

Tom Pellereau:
It's a really nice idea.

Rob Bell:
But the yield from that only cost, the relatively small cost, the yield is really huge, right?

As you say, because it then generates an experience.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, I think it's really good.

Plus, I learned a bit about my dad and things that he thinks are interesting or shaped him.

You know, so he's put like books where he's found really fascinating through his life, and he's read, we haven't.

And you learn a bit about stuff that he values too.

And I think that's quite nice in a present.

Rob Bell:
Are we all in agreement, though, that our dads are the most difficult people to buy for?

Jono Hey:
You struggle.

Rob Bell:
I struggle, because, yeah, he's got everything he wants or needs, and he's not one to kind of have extras.

Jono Hey:
And it's a bit strange to give your dad like cash, isn't it?

Because, you know, most people, if you can't buy something, actually cash is quite appreciated.

We underestimate how much people like just getting cash, right?

For a nephew or something, it's great.

For your dad.

Rob Bell:
I've just thought of an example of where I've really tried to enforce the something you think they ought to like on my dad, because I've bought him the same thing twice.

Tom Pellereau:
Amazing.

Rob Bell:
It's a pair of big golf mittens for when it's really cold and he's out playing golf in the winter.

He plays golf twice a week and he plays come rain or shine, whatever the weather.

If the course is open, he'll play and he goes out with the bare minimum.

And so he'll play with freezing cold hands and he doesn't really care how well he plays.

So he likes being out there.

And so I bought him these big mittens that you wear between shots that are easy to get on and off.

That's the thing, because you've got your golf glove underneath and it just keeps your hands warm so you can feel the club.

Jono Hey:
I can see that you believe passionately in these clothes as a solution.

Rob Bell:
And so I bought himself a Christmas probably a decade ago.

And then it was this Christmas when I didn't have much inspiration for him.

And I thought, do you know what?

I know he doesn't use those mittens.

He's probably lost them.

He doesn't know where they are in the garage anymore.

Tom Pellereau:
I'm going to get him those again.

Rob Bell:
I'm going to buy him another pair, which is exactly what I did.

Jono Hey:
You're going to like these or else.

Rob Bell:
But this time, I bought some that clip onto the handlebars of the buggy.

I don't know whether he's used them or not.

Probably not.

He probably still hasn't used them.

Jono Hey:
Is it a bit disappointing that he hasn't used them?

Make you a bit sad.

Rob Bell:
He ought to like this.

I just think he'd be better off for them.

Yeah, I really believe that.

Jono Hey:
And he's not interested.

Rob Bell:
He's not interested.

He's difficult to buy for.

Jono Hey:
Rob bought me the blimps again.

Trying to get rid of these.

Rob Bell:
Now that I'm with that, I could probably say I'm probably quite difficult to buy for because I don't really want that much more than the stuff that I've got and the stuff that I need, which I've got.

I've got everything.

Jono Hey:
That's nice.

Rob Bell:
There are thereabouts.

Tom Pellereau:
That's nice.

Jono Hey:
There's all these people agonizing over what they're going to get for Rob.

Tricky.

Rob Bell:
No, but then I like surprises and I like the element of curiosity and interest as well.

Tom Pellereau:
So the irony is that a huge proportion of the products I design make are given as gifts.

Rob Bell:
That's a good point.

Yeah.

I have bought or acquired them via yourself for people, Tom.

Jono Hey:
Same.

Tom Pellereau:
Possibly like over three quarters of them are given as gifts.

When we are designing products, we have often designed them as gifts to be the nicest experience.

Rob Bell:
Is that right?

Knowing that so many of them are bought to be given as gifts, does that affect your business in how you present or how you design that product?

Tom Pellereau:
For sure, we have to give the best experience and it's easy to use and so the packaging is hugely important in that and so often spending a whole year designing things which are gifts.

Jono Hey:
You're actually like one step removed, like thinking of somebody else's Venn Diagram.

Tom Pellereau:
Yes.

Jono Hey:
Putting yourself in the position of somebody buying a gift, thinking about what would make a good gift for somebody and having to go, they would really like to give something that's useful, that looks nice, that's priced about right, that's good for them, all sorts of things.

Tom Pellereau:
But then I do know people who work for sort of novelty gift companies.

I think that is really, that's a really fun job as well because often it's for dads because no one knows what to give to the dads.

You do see a lot, there's a huge amount of novelty gifts are designed for men and some of them are really, really cool.

Some of them are very kind of tacky and standard.

Jono Hey:
I didn't think about it at first when you brought this up, but I've actually got a book which is, I hope, a pretty good fit for all three Venn circles.

It's called Big Ideas, Little Pictures.

Hopefully it's something you think that they will like.

And hopefully it's something that they do like.

And also you'd look at it and you think they ought to like this thing.

It's going to be fun.

It's going to be really good.

And so hopefully that would fit in the sweet spot.

A lot of the book is very sort of giftable.

Rob Bell:
It's so giftable.

Jono Hey:
Hopefully it's the sort of thing you look at and you think, oh, they'd like that.

And you might even do they'd like that more than you think that you'd like that.

But that's great, because if you got a gift to give, perfect.

You know, that's a problem to solve as well.

Rob Bell:
And as we've said before about Sketchplanations and within that, including Big Ideas, Little Pictures, Jono's book, there's something for everyone.

Jono Hey:
So if you got problems with buying presents coming up, Tom's website is really good and I've got a book.

Rob, anything you're selling?

Rob Bell:
Rob And I've got a DVD of...

Jono Hey:
Oh dear.

I honestly did not even consider that until Tom you started talking about the products, but yeah.

Rob Bell:
Rob You liars.

I got both of your memos about how can we do this one because I really need to...

Jono Hey:
Make sure you leave space for this.

Rob Bell:
Rob We need to plug this stuff.

Tom Pellereau:
I assume this is getting out at Christmas, isn't it?

Rob Bell:
Rob I did think about that.

It's a bit of an odd time of year to be doing this, but I thought I saw it.

It's quite fun.

It's quite fun.

Any other business?

Anything anyone else would like to add before we round off?

Tom Pellereau:
Rob I do feel massively unqualified to be talking about the subject at all.

Like occasionally I get it right, but most of the time I don't or I even forget to get a gift.

And I think Sarah will find it quite amazing that I'm doing a podcast about giving gifts.

Jono Hey:
But that's okay, because we learn from our mistakes and what doesn't work.

So I don't, yeah, as I said at the beginning, I don't profess to be giving advice with this Venn Diagram.

It was merely merely an observation.

One of the clearest examples of it for me was like, we talked about it not too long ago, but Calvin and Hobbes, like Calvin always had like these unbelievable letters for Santa, the list, you know, you make your Santa list.

And he has one which is like, he brings basically like a book to his mum.

And she's like, what?

This is alphabetized.

She's like, yeah, I cross index the accessories to help out.

And he's like, this says volume one.

Yep, atom bomb through grenade launcher.

So good all the way.

I just got lots on Christmas gifts.

But of course, if you're a parent, you're not going to buy him a grenade launcher, which is I think that sort of thing, which is, you know, he'd really like a grenade launcher.

You are not going to buy him a grenade.

Or you're going to buy him something you think he ought to like and will be good for him.

Rob Bell:
Can I round off on a gift that I have in the past reflected on possibly being the greatest gift that I was ever given?

As a seven year old for my birthday, my uncle, an unrelated uncle, so a friend of my parents gave me a series of six half hour golf lessons with him.

So I was learning to play golf and he was learning to play golf at the same time.

So as a seven year old, my uncle, this lovely fun guy, would come and pick me up from school and we'd go off to the golf club and we'd have our lessons together with, we had different teachers, different golf pros gave us our lessons and we learned to play golf together.

And then at the weekend, my dad would come and play golf with us because he played a bit of golf already.

I love golf.

I love playing golf.

That was my introduction to it.

And it was something that became, it was an experience, but it was something that brought me really, really close to my uncle Roe, who's no longer with us anymore.

But in my golf bag, to this day, and I've had a few golf bags since then, I still have the birthday card that he gave to me with the voucher inside it for a set of six golf lessons.

Wow.

I think that's possibly one of the best presents I was ever given.

Yeah, it's lovely.

Jono Hey:
That's really nice.

It's interesting, like, it'd be hard for somebody to do quite as nice a present now, because you already know how to play golf, and you know how to do all these things.

Because when you're seven, the world's open.

So many new experiences available to you, you know, giving something new is much, much easier, I suppose.

Maybe that's why it's hard to buy for dads.

Yeah, you're right.

All the things they wanted to do, they've done, they're not going to do any more.

Rob Bell:
No, you're right.

You're right.

It's a good, I wonder up to what age you're in that sweet spot.

To still be able to give something new each time to a youngster.

Jono Hey:
I mean, your dad doesn't even want to put the mittens on.

Rob Bell:
Come on, dad, share my love of warm hands.

While I was playing golf.

Jono Hey:
You'll love it.

Rob Bell:
I feel like I've learnt some stuff there, guys.

Any obvious takeaways for you from the episode?

Hopefully it's of use to our listeners as well, to think about gifts if they're stuck.

Tom Pellereau:
I've learnt a lot what Jono said about novelty being overrated in terms of when you're giving a gift and thinking much more about what's useful or maybe not being worried about something being boring.

Jono Hey:
I guess what I'd sort of take away is it's quite complicated, isn't it?

When there's so many factors involved in the age of the person and how well you know the person.

If you're buying for multiple people and your values and their values and what you can afford and if you're going to be there when they open it and whether or not it matters if...

Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, it's a lot going on.

But I've not actually ever seen...

I've never seen a book which says this is how gift giving works, which is sort of funny in a way, given that we give enormous numbers of gifts.

Maybe there is like...

This is the ultimate guide to how gifting works, but I've never seen it.

Rob Bell:
The Sketchplanations manual for gift giving.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, that would be a good present for people.

Rob Bell:
Brilliant.

Thank you, chaps.

That's been another really useful life lesson episode for me.

And I'm almost jealous of the next person I get a gift for, because after this, I'm obviously going to nail it.

Jono Hey:
It's going to be amazing.

Rob Bell:
Once again, thank you all for listening.

And as I said at the top of the show, I am very open to your suggestions or tips on gift buying.

We can add it in the manual.

Jono Hey:
Stories, stories of good and bad.

Rob Bell:
And stories of good and, as Tommy said, the more interesting, the bad ones.

You can send any thoughts or any experiences you have gift buying or gift receiving to the email address hello at sketchplanations.com or you can leave us a voice note on the podcast website.

And as has been associated with many before now, including Mark Twain obviously, the quote that knowledge is the greatest gift hopefully rings truer than ever before with this podcast.

And for that, dear friends, you are very welcome.

Thanks for listening.

Until next time, go well and stay well.

Goodbye.

Tom Pellereau:
Goodbye.

Rob Bell:
All music on this podcast series is provided by the very talented Franc Cinelli.

And you can find many more tracks at franccinelli.com.