The Peter Principle

Jono Hey:

I was speaking to somebody the other day and it struck me immediately was most of the problems of their job were to do with their manager.

And I just think that's so common, right?

Tom Pellereau:

And I managed to catch up with you.

I was like, Robbie, how do you do it?

You just say, can you give me some tips?

You're like; "yeah, I've no idea. I just feel it" and you just vanished.

Rob Bell:

Tommy, if that's what happened, then that was for your own good.

Tom Pellereau:

Ha ha ha.

Rob Bell:

This week, we've selected the sketch that explains The Peter Principle.

Tom Pellereau:

I'm not a big fan of too much hierarchy in business.

Some people are really, really good at what they do.

Let them continue to be promoted in inverted economies, i.e.

they start earning more because they are more and more useful, but actually don't give them direct reports.

Maybe bring in someone who's just really good at managing people.

Rob Bell:

Hello and welcome to Sketchplanations The Podcast.

Confucius, Aristotle, Da Vinci, Descartes, all great thinkers of the ages.

Archimedes, Tesla, Ford, Jobs, the same but for innovation, Lincoln, Churchill, Mandela, Springer, some of history's most respected orators.

But what a time to be alive this is.

For over the next 40 minutes or so, you've elected to listen to Hay, Pellero, Bell, thinkers, innovators, owners of microphones.

And with a power combo like that, sparks will surely fly.

So let's light the touch paper and get things started as we say hello this week to Jono and Tommy.

Good evening, chaps.

Tom Pellereau:

Good evening.

Jono Hey:

Good evening.

Feeling a lot of pressure now.

Rob Bell:

Yeah, it's a big name isn't it?

Jono Hey:

Quite some company to keep up with.

Rob Bell:

Springer.

Jono Hey:

Well, I was gonna ask you about Springer.

Tom Pellereau:

Jerry.

Rob Bell:

Jerry Springer.

Jono Hey:

Oh, that's what you meant.

Tom Pellereau:

Jerry Springer.

Not Springer Spaniel.

Rob Bell:

Yes, I'd lost this year actually.

Well, yeah, 2023.

Jono Hey:

Sorry, what's this year?

Rob Bell:

Where, when Jerry Springer died.

Yeah.

They're all dead, all those names.

Tom Pellereau:

Why are we in that list?

Jono Hey:

Yeah, yeah, wait a second.

Rob Bell:

Well, because what a time to be alive this is.

Tom Pellereau:

Sorry.

Rob Bell:

But on a completely random question I was going to ask you boys this week.

When was the last time you were truly scared?

Can you remember?

Because I was scared this weekend a little bit.

I was around at some friends and their daughter had a little pet leopard gecko.

And I don't really like reptiles.

And there was quite a bit of pressure to just like pet the gecko.

Just give him a little stroke down his back.

And I really didn't want to, but I was like, oh, I don't really want to do this.

Ah, all right, I'll do it.

It's fine.

There we go.

I've touched it.

Great, brilliant.

They're quite popular pets, apparently, these leopard geckos.

And I was truly, I just didn't, yeah, I was a bit scared, I'll be honest.

Jono Hey:

I really like geckos.

We have, when we were traveling, I just always felt like a gecko is kind of like your friend.

Rob Bell:

That's a nice way to think of it.

Jono Hey:

They would, if you were in a hotel room and there might be mosquitoes in the room and you had a gecko, then you stood a chance.

A gecko, they're completely silent.

They can like stick on the walls or the ceiling, whatever.

They don't bother you.

They don't care about you, but they might catch some mosquitoes.

So I love them.

We've got, you might have seen them, both of you.

We've got some little fake geckos.

Surprised people, I have to say, when they come down.

Might have scared you, actually.

Rob Bell:

Yeah, it probably does.

I just don't like little, I don't like little fast things.

What is that?

Tom Pellereau:

They've got to be one of the least scary reptiles that exist though.

Fine.

Rob Bell:

But I just don't like that whole category.

Tom Pellereau:

I completely changed my answer to last time being scared, now that I know that gecko is the sort of competition.

Need to turn it back down again.

Rob Bell:

I mean, I agree with you, Jonny.

I like them when you don't have to touch them.

I don't mind them being in the room.

That's fine.

That's fine.

I think it was in Indonesia and the geckos make this cool noise in there.

Ah, ow.

It's kind of the soundscape of being out in the jungle in Indonesia is quite nice.

Jono Hey:

Go on then, Tom, what was yours?

Tom Pellereau:

Tuesday, board meeting with Lord Sugar.

Still very scary.

Oh, I get so, I get, I also had a really painful neck, which I knew would only get more painful because I always sort of really sort of tense up.

And yeah, it's always genuinely still quite scary.

But also before that and physically scared is cycling with you, downhill cycling.

I love that going up and down those hills and that's genuinely scary.

Rob Bell:

When you're going fast, do you mean?

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, on the electric bikes and then coming down the hills, down the mountains, that is good fun.

And it does get very, very scary every so often.

Rob Bell:

Can we just specify it was you on the electric bike?

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely me.

Doesn't mean to come down faster.

Rob Bell:

There was no need for that.

I take that back.

Tom Pellereau:

But no need to add the fact that I was on an electric bike at all, I shouldn't have mentioned that.

It's great fun though.

Rob Bell:

Jono, when were you scared last?

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I was thinking, there's always a bit of pressure when you have to be a linesman for a 11th football match.

No, but I was trying to genuinely scared.

I think it was sort of there and gone in a moment, but I was driving and it was a long journey and I was quite tired and it was stuck in traffic and you couldn't get out.

And then I remember just like suddenly sort of like, almost like waking up.

And obviously I wasn't like fully asleep, but there was a bit where you're suddenly like, oh, hang on, I maybe missed a second there or something.

And then I remember that like your adrenaline's going, you know, I felt that, you know, like, right, how do I get off the raid somewhere?

Rob Bell:

Did that fear and adrenaline wake you up from that kind of tiredness?

Jono Hey:

Yeah, but I think it can only do so much.

I think I had to reach for the wasabi peas after that, which you had to, you what, sorry.

Reach for the wasabi peas.

I've got two strategies when you feel really tired, apart from drinking coffee.

One of them is to drink loads of water so you really need to pee.

Rob Bell:

Yeah, that's good.

Jono Hey:

Because it's really hard to fall asleep if you really need to pee.

And the other one is wasabi peas.

Because you never know if the next one's gonna be really hot and when it's really hot, that really wakes you up.

Rob Bell:

Oh, that is great.

Tom Pellereau:

Didn't we do an entire episode about this?

An entire podcast about don't drive when you're tired.

And here's Jono giving, if you're tired, two bits of advice.

And we did it without including the going get some rest option.

Rob Bell:

Yeah, but you can't always do that straight away, can you?

That's the problem here.

You're stuck on the motorway, you're stuck in traffic, but you're struggling.

It's not nice, yeah.

All things that I would probably also be scared of and have been.

I haven't had that many board meetings with Lord Sugar, but I haven't had any.

But I can imagine I would be quite scared.

Tom Pellereau:

Should arrange that, shouldn't we?

Board meeting, reverse.

Thing is, it just doesn't, it wouldn't be the same when you've got no actual skin in the game.

It's like, I don't think it's the same.

Rob Bell:

I'm all right.

Well, listen, there's nothing to be afraid of in this podcast.

There are no jump scare moments, boo.

There are no snakes or spiders hiding anywhere.

And I'd say we're all fairly mild-mannered.

So you can really switch off and relax as we get into this week's episode.

That said, Tommy's nothing if not slightly unpredictable.

So I can't guarantee a super smooth ride.

Let's see.

Let's podcast.

This week, we've selected the sketch that explains The Peter Principle.

Originally a satirical observation that in every organizational hierarchy, employees tend to rise through the ranks until they meet their own level of incompetence.

Now, before we get into this discussion, let me remind you that you can follow the link in the podcast description below to see this sketch if it's not already showing on your screens, and that you can peruse all sorts of other sketches at sketchplanations.com.

Also, you can let us know your run ins with The Peter Principle by emailing your stories, observations and experiences to helloatsketchplanations.com.

I feel like this one especially could wake some demons from the past, perhaps.

So please do send those stories in, and we'll be going through last week's emails at the very end of this podcast.

Right then, Jono, do you want to explain this phenomena a bit and tell us if there was a specific catalyst for you wanting to cover this as a sketch?

Jono Hey:

I don't remember a specific catalyst, per se, but it's something I remember, I've known about for a really long time.

And it's just kind of like, it's just this thing where as soon as you hear it, you can relate to it.

And it's just sort of quite funny.

And so the sketch is essentially like, there's a junior person who's showing off how well they've done and they've got a little star, and then they move to a senior and they've got a little award on their wall and then they move to the director and then they're sweating and can't cope anymore.

And just as soon as you hear it, you're like, I can kind of relate to that.

Every time you go up a level, things get harder.

And at some point, you're gonna reach the point where you can't do it, but now you're already at that level.

So what are you gonna do?

So yeah, it wasn't a specific catalyst exactly, but I just really remember this one and it's a nice one to share and talk about.

Rob Bell:

So this is a theory, as I say, originally satirically put forward by a Canadian educational scholar and sociologist called Dr.

Laurence Peter in his 1968 book, titled The Peter Principle.

And so the theory is that within organizations, and when we're talking about organizations, really we're talking about work, right?

Commercial entities and when people get promoted, they get to a certain level and they're not gonna go any higher because they've reached their level of incompetence.

And you mentioned quite early on in your explanation there, John, about how relatable you felt this probably was to most people.

Is that because you think most people probably have experienced a boss perhaps or somebody more senior within their organization and they're thinking, how did they get there?

What have they got to deserve that position?

Jono Hey:

Well, I think there definitely is some of that.

Like I was speaking with somebody the other day and what struck me immediately was like, most of the problems of their job were to do with their manager.

And I just think that's so common, right?

Like that people complain about their manager.

Now that might be because all managers are bad, but it also might be because you underestimate like how hard that job actually is, for example.

But I think, I don't know, I sort of feel like there's just such logic to it, isn't there?

Like if you're good, you get promoted.

And so if you don't get promoted, well, that means you're not doing a good job, but then you're kind of stuck.

And so I feel like it's the logic as much as anything, as much as personal experience.

It's not like I've done 15 jobs in different places, but definitely I have heard a lot of people complain about their managers.

Rob Bell:

I do like that, yeah, that this is logical.

It makes sense that this happens.

Jono Hey:

I like in the subtitle of The Peter Principle book is why things always go wrong.

Rob Bell:

Right, okay.

Jono Hey:

It's just a really nice principle, isn't it?

It's like you, if somebody's really good at something, you go up to a higher level until they're not really good at it anymore.

And so things start to go wrong.

Rob Bell:

And then potentially goes wrong for the entire organization because Dr.

Peter in his book then goes on to say that, eventually, if you project this forward, it's what you get is a whole organization full of people incompetent at their roles.

Jono Hey:

Which is why it was like, I think, satire, right?

Like everybody is in a position that they can't do, which sounds crazy, but there is some truth to it, I think.

Rob Bell:

Tommy, how do you feel about this phenomena, The Peter Principle?

Tom Pellereau:

I don't know if you're watching any of the COVID inquiry at the moment or sort of reading about it, listening to it.

Rob Bell:

I'm listening, yeah.

Tom Pellereau:

And you're kind of like, oh my word, you know, you're finding out about, you know, Boris in meetings and not really understanding what graphs or statistics kind of meant.

Rob Bell:

This is ex British Prime Minister Boris Johnson, yeah.

Tom Pellereau:

And Matt Hancock kind of clearly being out of his debt pretty rapidly.

And to be frank, I think there aren't probably many people who would have been able to feel confident at doing that.

And certainly not someone who was charismatic enough to get loads of votes in an election.

And possibly a lot of what's wrong with our politics is the fact that to win votes is probably a very different skill than to actually run a country or run a government.

Jono Hey:

Yeah, absolutely.

So like to win a massive campaign is really hard and requires some skills, but there might be really different skills from what it is to run a country, yeah.

Rob Bell:

And again, looking at this, from what you've just said there, I don't know about how, you know, the irony of it, not the irony, the farcical nature of this, right?

What's coming up quite a lot in these inquiry is a lack of leadership at that top level, right?

But yet this is the leader of our country whose main competence you would hope would be leadership.

But it turns out, well, say it.

I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna sugarcoat this.

Not, absolutely not.

No competence whatsoever in leadership.

Tom Pellereau:

And you kind of hope that next time, if there is a next time, which hopefully not, something like this, which is so gigantic, it comes up that, you know, it can be more kind of bipartisan, is that ever gonna happen?

Or, you know, they're kind of like, right, clearly this is seriously special event.

We should really bring in some experts to help lead this situation.

People who actually have an ability to understand this and take earlier judgments and bring more people into it as well.

So it's very, very, I think apparent within government and certainly prime ministers potentially reach that stage as well.

Rob Bell:

What about within your professional world, Tommy?

Tom Pellereau:

Yes.

Rob Bell:

You are the boss.

Tom Pellereau:

I am the boss and so therefore I'm very well aware the fact that, and I feel it a lot, you know.

I'm now CEO of a multi-million pound business with a load of people working for me.

And I like playing with bits of plastic and inventing products.

You know, I studied mechanical engineering.

I haven't had any sort of training really for understanding how to manage people, how to lead a business, how to, you know, I was captain of the second 11 hockey team.

And I quite enjoyed leading certain events, but I'm constantly aware of it and constantly trying to bring people around me to help support that.

And also aware that probably as we grow, those people who grow with us, you know, are they still the right person?

And I've seen that a few times with people who have either sadly had to ask to leave or who have maybe resigned because they sort of reach a level where it's maybe not for them anymore.

And that's really tricky when a business is growing and when it feels like family and when people are really close.

So it's very tricky, but I think it's very important for us to be aware ourselves and then potentially aware if we are leading others.

I do have a question though, because I feel that we do also improve.

Like when we get promoted, we're at that level, but also you're never going to be really ready to be at that level until you've done it for a bit.

So is The Peter Principle, Paul, something about a period in time and then hopefully you grow into it?

Jono Hey:

I mean, I think there's always growth and learning.

And we touched on like, if you're a child, like you don't know stuff, you've got to learn stuff.

We were all children.

We all learned a lot of stuff and got to where we are.

But I think if you move to the next, and I think being a CEO is an interesting one because obviously you want to do this business and in order to do this business, you need to start it.

And so you become the CEO almost by de facto, but that is a bunch of different skills which you don't have yet.

And of course you can pick them up.

And a CEO is different because there isn't like, I don't know, a next level, shall we say.

But I think, you know, if you go to any other role, the idea with The Peter Principle is that, sure, you can get better at it, but if you were really good at it, you might be in line for the next promotion.

And so, yeah, it might not be quite stressful, you know, six months later, or it may be really bad.

I don't know.

Rob Bell:

One of the distinctions for me, which is kind of along the lines of answering your question there, Tommy, is I was a manager for a while.

I got a promotion from just doing my role to having a role that had some managerial responsibilities to it as well.

And I didn't enjoy that.

I didn't want to be a manager.

And as a result of that, I wasn't overly competent at it either.

It was only for about two or three people max, but it just wasn't something I particularly enjoyed.

And I don't think it was something I was particularly good at either, because I just didn't, I didn't want to spend my time doing that.

So I think when you are promoted into a role, if there's an element of that role that you don't want to be doing, then you're probably going to remain incompetent at it.

That's definitely the case for me when I was a manager of people.

Tom Pellereau:

Is that when you then sort of decided to leave?

Rob Bell:

Not because of that, but yeah.

Tom Pellereau:

Or was it when you became CEO of that organisation?

Rob Bell:

No, I never got that high, Tommy.

No way near it.

No way near it.

Jono Hey:

Tom, when you became sort of CEO out of necessity, some ways maybe as a CEO, do you like your potential to give people management responsibilities out of necessity?

Like you give it to your best people because you trust them and you think that they're do a good job with it better than somebody else in your organisation, let's say.

Like, you know, like your best designer, you need another designer.

So the one who's there is gonna manage the one who's just come in, right?

They know more.

And so sometimes is it like as a, if you're running a company, is it just out of necessity sometimes?

Tom Pellereau:

Often is the case.

And as you say, you know, I am CEO in many respects by necessity or cause I've been there the longest or cause I own half of it.

Jono Hey:

Just stick around.

Tom Pellereau:

And yeah, I see it a lot.

I'm not a big fan of too much hierarchy in business.

I don't necessarily find that is desirable.

And I think what is really nice is that things are changing in the fact that it's becoming kind of understood that some people are really, really good at what they do and promoting them to have then people underneath them is actually detrimental to everybody.

And just let them continue to be promoted in inverse economies, i.e.

they start earning more because they are more and more useful.

But actually, don't give them direct reports.

Maybe bring in someone who's just really good at managing people.

And that's how you kind of structure it.

And certainly I think coding is probably pioneered in this area.

Jonny, you probably have that in your organisation, do you?

Like specialists who are just, they're just rock stars at doing that.

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I think like development, and I'm not a real developer myself, but I work with a lot of developers.

And I think that's a classic one where the skills to be a really good developer are not at all necessarily what it is to manage developers, right?

And so, yeah.

And I think that does quite often happen.

You'll have like an engineering manager who will have a really different skillset to your like rockstar, best performing engineers.

And that makes a lot of sense.

But that's, I don't know.

It's not always the way it would go naturally.

I think it's also quite common just because you're the senior developer.

Like, okay, right.

Well, you look after the junior ones, you know, that kind of thing.

Rob Bell:

But is that traditionally getting a promotion typically meant taking charge of more people, more and more people, probably?

Then we're talking about this technical competence versus managerial competence and the emotional intelligence that you need, perhaps a bit more life experience you need, social skills that you need to be able to do that managerial role well, in addition to all your technical competence and expertise.

Tom Pellereau:

I think everyone listening to this can really relate to this probably.

Either they are someone who's technically really competent and they don't really wanna manage someone or who looks around and go, that person's really good at managing.

I wish they were left to do more managing.

And that's possibly one of the biggest advantages of really big organizations because they can get good at understanding this.

And I do know some people who work in HR or development or performance, a really good friend who works in performance and his job is to just develop the best talent within.

And often it doesn't involve them doing any management themselves.

Jono Hey:

But it's interesting what you say about the size of the organization there.

Because if you're a smaller organization, you might just not have the people to do that.

You're like, well, we need somebody to manage them and everybody else is busy.

So you do it, you're the best qualifier, I suppose.

Rob Bell:

Is that where internal promotions probably end up suffering from The Peter Principle more than recruiting externally for these kind of roles?

Jono Hey:

Yeah, good question.

Well, I think when I did the sketch originally, there was a study fairly recently in 2018 on salespeople.

And they had really good data on performance.

And sales is one of these things, which I think is quite a bit easier to measure performance in some respects than some other jobs, right?

Because you look at the numbers.

Rob Bell:

It's very visible, isn't it, to the rest of the organisation?

It's very visible how your sales are.

Jono Hey:

Yeah, and what they found by analysing the data was basically that you had all the, basically the best salespeople tended to get promoted to manage teams and those teams then turned out to be the worst performing teams.

Mm-hmm.

And so you have the, yeah, exactly.

You have this double hit where you had these really top performers and you've stopped them being able to perform as a top performer.

And now you've got teams that's not doing well as well.

And so, yeah, having a different way to allow people to progress in their organisation, in their careers and to earn more as well is probably a really important thing.

And really considering like, well, actually, what do I need to do this job?

And what are the skills?

Because I think that's fundamentally the thing, isn't it?

The skills of this next job are just different from what you needed at the previous one.

I was thinking about football coaches.

I think it's interesting how like, being a really top player doesn't mean that you're gonna be a good coach of a team.

And sometimes I think it's the opposite.

And if you look around, you're like, actually, I don't, a lot of the coaches who are doing a really good job, I had no idea who they were as players.

But there is a very much, like, I think there is, you go do your coaching badge, right?

So it's not assumed that you're just gonna transition straight from I'm a great footballer to I'm gonna coach this team.

You go off and you do a big coaching course and you develop at that for a long time.

You shadow it for a long time before you come in.

Tom Pellereau:

It's a really great example.

But I think in some respects, the kind of the supporters want to see the big name kind of come in, the Stevie Gerrards, that sort of things are like, well, they were such good players.

They make amazing managers.

And they have been really successful at Lampard's Alley.

And Rooney, I'm sure they will come back and in their time become amazing.

But at the same time, but it was also really disappointing to see that not work out quite as, apart from Conte.

So a mate of mine, I've got a little story.

A friend of ours recently had one of those hair transplants, you know, where he gets the injections in.

And someone was saying, yeah, yeah, you know, it works really well, like Conte.

I was like, Conte, he's got amazing hair.

It was like, well, yeah, exactly.

And then they showed me a photo of Conte when he was younger.

I was like, oh, that's who he is.

Like, and I recognized him as a player with hardly any hair, but I'd never put the two of those players together.

I was like, oh, now I recognize Conte from when he was a player.

Oh, it all makes sense.

Very impressive.

Jono Hey:

So that's one thing you can do when you get promoted.

Rob Bell:

Get a hair transplant if you're transplanted.

You can get filler, a bit of Botox, get your teeth done.

Completely unrecognizable.

But have you ever experienced that from a sport perspective?

So a sport or a kind of physical skill that you're relatively competent at, I don't know, tennis or skiing, whatever, and then someone who isn't as good comes up, oh, can you teach me?

I will almost point blankly refuse each time because I don't know how to teach that thing.

Because typically I haven't really been taught myself.

I've just kind of learned, just kind of picked it up.

And so the last thing you want to be doing is trying to teach somebody some awful technique that is just your technique.

Definitely not the, I don't know, like ATP approved technique of coaching.

Or the LTA, I should say.

Tom Pellereau:

I remember so clearly having this with you.

We were at the top of Westler Black Coon.

We were covering down this amazing powder and you were just sort of carving it through.

And I managed to catch up with you.

I was like, Robbie, how do you do it?

Can you give me some tips?

You're like, yeah, I've no idea.

I just feel it.

And you just vanished.

And I was like, oh, cheers, mate.

Jono Hey:

You know, it's a different skill, Tom.

Rob Bell:

But Tommy, let me tell you now for one, if that's what happened, then that was for your own good.

If I tried to teach you something and it's completely wrong, it's like, oh yeah, well, I think what you do is you actually ski with your finger up, you know, it really helps you do it.

Tom Pellereau:

I don't know.

Jono Hey:

Why is Tommy doing that?

Rob told him, I don't know.

Rob Bell:

Have you had that where someone's asked you to teach you something and you go, ah, I can't, I don't know how to do it.

Tom Pellereau:

So it's the joy of being a parent is the fact that you kind of feel that suddenly you are really good at things and you remember how to do them and you start trying to give advice and then you rapidly realise that, no, just shut up and let the coaches or the other people help.

Rob Bell:

Because in the world of the blind, the one-eyed man is good.

Tom Pellereau:

Because when you're playing as a seven or eight year old, you are pretty good at whatever sport you're playing because you're just physically a lot bigger.

Jono Hey:

I think my experience with that is that in order to get to whatever skill level you are now, you had to learn a lot of things along the way and I think if you're just asked off the bat to give some tips, you'll go straight towards the technique that you have now and sort of skip all the learning steps.

And if you know, a bit like ski is not a bad example.

I remember doing snow plow for a long time, right?

But it's not, maybe that was a really effective way to learn.

But if you just ask me for some tips right now, I'd be like, oh no, do a bit of this, like as I am now.

But actually, I forgot that I did all those stages.

And if you're a coach, you learn what is the next useful step for people to do.

And I think swimming is the same, right?

Like, yeah, if you would be, I mean, you can just throw somebody in and see if they sink or swim, but that's not a very effective way for people to learn, right?

And you do drills and you and you like, okay, now we're going to work on our legs, now we're going to work on this.

And as opposed to be like, right, just, you know, swim a bit more like me.

Tom Pellereau:

So a hockey team at uni, there were three, four international players.

This is like, okay, this is a pretty incredible standard.

So I could kind of like get first on the bench.

I was like 12th or 13th player sort of thing.

And you'd get subbed in and there's quite a bit of subbing in hockey.

But it was kind of pretty clear that really, I was going to spend quite a long time on the bench.

I was like, actually, do you mind if I just go down to the seconds?

Because I'd much rather play and maybe even, and then the following year I was captain.

It was like, I'd just rather stay on this team, be captain, you know, try to help this group rather than be like on the bench with some incredible athletes, like some of the guys that we're playing with.

But just amazing.

And I wasn't in that league.

But there was the other guy who was like, also 12th or 13th, he decided to stay up.

He's like, I just want to try and get to this level and prove that I can break it.

Cool.

Well, I'll go down.

Jono Hey:

It seems like a very mature way to do it.

But I think it's not what happens in a company very often.

You know, normally, like, might get a promotion and it's like, yeah, it's a big thing.

You got pay rise, you got different responsibilities.

And it's not easy just to say, oh, no, you go back to what you're doing before.

It's not like a very graceful transition.

So that sounds very smart, but I've not seen it very much in organisations.

Rob Bell:

What I see occasionally within television industry, there are different roles.

And typically for working off screen, so as part of the crew making a television documentary, you've got junior roles, kind of middle roles, and then more senior roles.

And a lot of people I've worked with who are in the more senior roles, like a producer director, have made their way up from researcher, researcher, assistant producer, producer, producer director, or something like that.

And then above a producer director who will be out on location directing and producing, and occasionally filming as well, occasionally shooting, is a series producer who typically don't come out on shoots.

They're back in the office, a much wider role overseeing the whole project and communicating upwards to executives and commissioners and that kind of thing.

Typically what I've seen when those series producers have had to maybe fill a gap for a few days and actually come out on location, they absolutely love it, right?

So they much more enjoy being out on location because that's their joy of being in this industry.

That's what they really loves doing.

And yes, getting the promotion to a series producer is fantastic because you get more money and there's more responsibility.

But I think a lot of, well, this is purely through my experience, a lot of those series producers who I've worked with have loved being back out in the field and stepping down to fill a role.

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I totally imagine that.

I remember, Tom, one of the first places we worked, right?

An innovation consulting place.

The CEO was one of the most creative people I've ever met, just so much energy and ideas.

And he spent most of his time doing sales and business meeting and just making sure the projects were in, as opposed to doing them.

And anytime there was any time to like get involved and work on the projects, he absolutely loved it.

Rob Bell:

Do you feel that ever, Tommy, running your own business that obviously takes up a lot of time, all the things we've been talking about, managing your team, finances, HR, all the rest of it, do you find you don't have as much time as you would like for what got you into this in the first place, that innovation, the ideas creation?

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

Tom Pellereau:

And it comes and goes a bit at the moment.

I've been able to get more involved into what I am best at doing.

And we've been able to kind of structure it a bit more.

So I get involved in the things that are really difficult, that are really new, or in the kind of the brainstorming of new products.

And luckily, my business is all about finding new products.

So that's like the best thing that I can be doing.

But there was a time where I had a lot of people reporting to me, and I was doing all that side of it.

And that was less enjoyable.

But I'm, you know, ultimately also the buck stops with me.

So I have to oversee everything and know what is going on on everything.

Jono Hey:

That's one way to do things.

Another thing is that to recognise that as you as you have, let's say, go up in an organisation, you have bigger responsibilities, maybe you're looking after different people, you actually have, you actually do a better service to disengage a little bit from those details.

And your idea is to leave them to your team and empower the team and, and make them accountable for these things, so that they can go and do the job that you hired them for.

And if you're still in the details, that's very difficult.

And I've seen it quite a lot where it's very hard as people promote up an organisation, and the organisation gets bigger, is letting go of all those details, the things that were your your bread and butter for so many years is really hard to do.

And actually, that can hold it hold things back because they burn out because they're trying to do everything.

But I think holding on to stuff is also difficult because you as you as you adapt to a new role, you've got to let go of some of the elements of the previous role and leave it to others.

Rob Bell:

Not always easy.

Tom Pellereau:

And there's the there's the sort of the conflict, the constant, constant contradiction of sort of running a business and that kind of idea of sweating the details, but the details don't matter.

If you know, I mean, like a lot of great leaders will say you've really got to understand the details.

The question is which details to hold and which ones not to.

And so we constantly, we constantly evolve and improve.

Rob Bell:

I'm going to, I'm going to switch the subject a tiny bit.

Because when I was reading up on The Peter Principle, I came across something called The Paula Principle.

Have you heard of this?

Tom Pellereau:

No.

Rob Bell:

So this is a term coined by a social and educational researcher, an American guy called Tom Schuller, who suggested that women tend to work in positions that are below the level of their competence, hence the Paula Principle.

And he posited five potential reasons for this.

So first of all, sadly, sexist discrimination in the workplace still existing, that women tend to lack the old boys network of professional contacts that male colleagues use to gain promotions.

Third one on his list was that women are more likely to admit that they lack some of the skills required for a job.

Fourth is that women bear most of the burdens of child care.

And finally, women may make a positive choice not to rise as high as they might.

I thought all of those were, they all sounded pretty valid to me.

Yeah, very, very plausible.

Tom Pellereau:

And I have personally seen it, and I do have a lot of women that work for me, and they're all brilliant.

And I do see it with my wife in businesses she's been a part of.

Obviously, I don't do the full details, but I've never heard of The Paula Principle, but that sounds absolutely spot on.

And I do hope that society gradually or rapidly changes, that both The Peter Principle and The Paula Principle disappear.

Rob Bell:

Then there's a third one, The Dilbert Principle.

Do you know Dilbert, the comic strip?

Tom Pellereau:

Of course.

Rob Bell:

Apparently, The Dilbert Principle is the inverse of The Peter Principle.

So The Dilbert Principle states that companies tend to promote their least competent employees to management roles, where they're least likely to interfere with production.

Jono Hey:

I thought it was phrases, leadership is nature's way of removing morons from the productive flow.

Rob Bell:

Very good.

Very good.

Okay, great.

Yeah.

Tom Pellereau:

That's brilliant.

Rob Bell:

I assume a lot of listeners or some listeners may be able to relate to that.

But also, I mean, I'd like to say, I've had some fantastic managers who were absolutely brilliant at what they did, both their technical knowledge and technical expertise and their people management, their leadership, their ability to inspire and motivate and coach.

Absolutely fantastic.

And I'm wondering if, well, I'm thinking now they're probably on their way up, right?

They probably hadn't reached the plateau, the level of incompetence.

They definitely weren't at their lowest.

They're on their way up.

That's probably where you want to get most managers, right?

On their way up to the level of incompetence.

Tom Pellereau:

It's also, it's a long life.

It's a long career.

I think we probably go up and down in these sort of things.

Rob Bell:

Can we flip over to another very related sketch of yours?

The generalized Peter Principle.

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I love the generalized Peter Principle.

Rob Bell:

So did I.

It was brilliant.

Jono Hey:

Knowing that we were going to talk about this, I did some Google searches for it just to read up about it again.

And there's very few mentions of it anywhere.

So actually, I can't even remember where I read it.

Can I explain what it is?

Rob Bell:

Please do.

Jono Hey:

I'll explain.

The Sketch is a little sort of family car, absolutely packed to the gills with the boot open, with stuff sticking out the back because you're like moving house and you've packed a mattress on the top and a wardrobe and a chair and a lamp and everything, because it can just about fit it.

And the idea is that the generalized Peter Principle is anything that works will be used in progressively more challenging situations until it fails.

The Peter Principle is the specific example of that, of people being promoted in organizations.

But actually, the generalized Peter Principle, I was like, oh yeah, I can relate to that.

I have a really clear picture in my mind because I took a photograph when we were in Cambodia and there was an incredible, there was like lots of these little mini vans and they were obviously doing some delivery and I've got this picture of these two guys studying this mini van and the boot is fully open and the van is completely packed to the gills and it's got stuff piled up at three or four feet high on the roof and then it's coming out the back and what they've strapped, I don't know how they've managed to do it, they've strapped on these trays of eggs and there's like a 16 by 16 trays of eggs and there's like 20 of them and they're strapped to the back of this van which is packed to the gills and they're both sitting there looking at it again.

Do you think we can fit any more on?

I know that's what I think you're like, well, the van's really good at carrying stuff.

I wonder if it can carry some more.

Rob Bell:

Carry more.

Jono Hey:

So yeah, that is a generalised Peter Principle.

Rob Bell:

I did it with a vacuum cleaner recently, which is very much a domestic vacuum cleaner.

And it was really good at doing its job on carpets and floors and stuff with just, you know, dust, you know, a few bits and bobs that have fallen on the floor.

Then I took it into a different environment as a very, very dusty room that I was renovating.

And I absolutely buggered the Hoover because it was so, so much dust and grit in there that it just clogged the whole thing up and it scratched all the insides and it doesn't work as well as a domestic Hoover anymore.

It did its job so well, I pushed it.

I pushed it too far.

Jono Hey:

Sorry to hear that, Robert.

Yeah, but you're not the only one.

Tom Pellereau:

If you properly took it apart and really cleaned out the...

Rob Bell:

I did.

I've taken it apart that now invalidates the warranty.

I've caused too much damage to it, sadly.

So an area that I thought is probably very common for this is technology and possibly software as well, right?

So if you look at self-checkouts, self-check-ins, customer service, telephone, technology, these are all things that do work quite well a lot of the time, but they can't always deal with kind of extraordinary situations.

VAR, we've got this great technology and it works, but then they keep trying to put a bit more on it and you end up with some very angry fans.

Jono Hey:

Totally.

I have another sketch, which unbeknownst to me, was kind of an example of generalised Peter Principle.

It's a really old one.

It's the rule number one of indoor games, which is that you play until something gets broken.

Rob Bell:

That is a thing to Peter Principle.

That's great.

Jono Hey:

So, you know, the game just gets rougher.

And, you know, let's try throwing this around.

Throw it harder, throw it harder.

And then you stop.

Rob Bell:

Until somebody cries or something gets broken.

Tom Pellereau:

Is it very human nature, this?

Do you think we're just, you know, we just all push and push and push?

But I've loaded so many cars with stuff.

Once carrying a massive table football thing on my bike on the tube.

Because I was getting it as a gift and they get, I bought this massive, you know, the proper full size table football table.

But then it turned out that the guy lived in King's Lynn.

So I was like, oh, this will be fine.

I'll just get the train up and all I have with my bicycle.

And he gave it to me going, what, have you not got a car?

I was like, I'll be all right.

So obviously back on the train, that's fine, into like King's Cross.

And then I had to get to Kentish Town.

I was quite late.

Actually, the bike is quite good for sort of, I can lean it on the bike and then you're not even supposed to take a bike on the tube.

Let alone a bike with a table football table on it.

We eventually got there.

Just bikes are brilliant for carrying stuff.

Jono Hey:

Next time you try wardrobe or something and then you have to...

Rob Bell:

Where I wanted that story to end was at the broken bit.

Either you broke or you got stuck in the lift and couldn't get out.

Tom Pellereau:

I'm very sorry to disappoint you.

Rob Bell:

Any other business on The Peter Principle, chaps?

Jono Hey:

Well, I think for the generalised Peter Principle, like you said, is this human nature?

I think there's a lot of good stuff about it, right?

Like, it makes a lot of sense to make the most use of everything that you've got.

It's very efficient.

You're naturally, you've got to test stuff until you get to the boundaries to make the most of this.

And of course, in business, you're trying to be efficient.

So like, there's a lot of good in this generalised Peter Principle as well.

And it's always, you know, all these things about it's better to try and fail than never try.

You just don't want to be stuck with failing stuff all the time, I suppose.

Rob Bell:

I had a slightly left field point to make on The Peter Principle.

Does anyone remember the sitcom from the late 90s, early 2000s called The Peter Principle?

Jono Hey:

I don't.

Rob Bell:

No, it's with Jim Broadbent.

I think that's the only reason I knew of the term The Peter Principle was because of the sitcom, but I didn't know what it meant until I saw your sketch, Jono.

I genuinely didn't know what The Peter Principle was.

I just thought it was a fun name.

I knew it was a term, but I didn't know what it meant, and it was a good name for a sitcom.

The sitcom, basically Jim Broadbent is a manager of a local branch of this bank, and he's totally inept at what he does, and everybody beneath him is much more competent.

There it is.

That's the prognosis.

That's the story.

It had two series, and it's the kind of thing I absolutely love.

It's kind of classic 90s sitcom.

Tom Pellereau:

Sounds very 40 Towers-esque, really.

Rob Bell:

Yeah, it kind of is, exactly.

And it now makes sense to me.

But at the time, I just thought, oh, this is fun.

The guy's name is Peter.

He's the bank manager.

And this is The Peter Principle.

He's rubbish.

But even more so, you can watch episodes on YouTube.

I started watching an episode today, and the title sequence, when the music's going on, is Jim Broadbent climbing up this ladder, right?

And then he goes sideways, he gets to the top of that ladder, he goes sideways onto another ladder, and starts climbing up that, and then gets to the top, and that's it, that's where the frame ends.

I was like, oh, this all makes so much sense.

But at the time, when I was watching it as a, I don't know, I don't know, 15, 16-year-old, I was like, oh, this is great, yeah.

I had no idea.

Jono Hey:

It's basically the sketch.

When you were describing the premise of the sitcom, I was thinking, well, it just kind of sounds like life, doesn't it?

Like people who are just generally out of their depth and somebody else saying how easy it is to do somebody else's job, you know, like, yeah, like, you know, well, why are you messing everything up?

Well, we're all messing everything up.

You know, it makes me feel it makes me realise I was thinking about it.

I was like, well, it's just go easy on people because, you know, everyone's probably just about trying to stay afloat.

Basically, if you agree, believe about the generalised Peter Principle, we're all like ducks with this calm on the surface and flapping underneath.

Rob Bell:

Yeah, no one's trying to do a bad job.

Well, very few people are trying to do a bad job, are they?

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I was thinking like, I'm not thinking like you get so stressed by being a parent, you might just choose to coast at your job and just be like mediocre, right?

Like if you don't care about the job, you just coast.

And you're not actually trying to be promoted.

You're not even trying to do well.

You're just trying to not get fired.

You're like, everything is a bit too much.

I'm just going to be just good enough that, you know, in this environment so that I can try and be just good enough.

I can do something else.

Watch The Peter Principle at home.

Tom Pellereau:

We look forward to the feedback from our listeners as to which one of us is The Peter Principle in this trio.

Jono Hey:

Well, I was thinking, which one of us is completely out of our depth at the moment?

Oh no, maybe it's all of us.

Rob Bell:

Well, thankfully for us, the organizational hierarchy of this podcast is largely flat.

We've been going for almost a year now and nobody's been promoted or demoted.

There's no management.

We just get on with it.

That doesn't mean there's not room for improvement.

Quite the contrary.

Last week, the three of us were all off on a podcast safety training course, which does explain why this week I'm actually wearing my glasses, why Jono's sitting properly in his new ergonomic chair, and why Tommy's opted for a hard hat, safety boots and a luminous life jacket.

As Tommy said, if you have some examples or observations from your world, including this podcast, where you've identified the Peter Principle in play, then we'd love to hear from you.

And you can email us at hello.

I've done it.

And you can email us on hello at sketchplanations.com.

Otherwise, we'll be back with this week's post bag very shortly.

But for now, thank you very much for listening.

Thank you very much, chaps.

Go well, stay well.

Goodbye.

Jono Hey:

Cheers, everyone.

Rob Bell:

Goodbye.

Hello.

It's just me, Robbie, again this week, because it's Easter break and Jono and Tommy are away on exotic family holidays.

In fact, they've both decided to embrace the cold this Easter.

I'm sure we'll hear more about that on the next episode.

But whilst we had a lot of messages about our previous episode, I'm going to keep this fairly short because they all pretty much say the same thing about how brilliant James Wong is.

And I have to agree, he is fantastic.

He was fantastic on the podcast.

We all learned so much.

We were all left in awe, giggling away at how much we enjoyed learning about everything James could tell us.

And if you've enjoyed it and if you think you know other people amongst your network, your family and friends who would also enjoy learning about all of that, just learning about how the wonderful world of plants actually works, all the clever stuff that's going on, then why not ping our podcast over to them so they can enjoy it as well.

That's it really.

Thank you again to James Wong.

I hope you've enjoyed this week's episode and I look forward to comments you have on The Peter Principle.

Bye for now.

All music on this podcast series is provided by the very talented Franc Cinelli.

And you can find many more tracks at franccinelli.com.