The Peak-End Rule

Rob Bell:

I've been to football matches as a supporter, where you've gone one nil down early on, and then it's been a pretty rubbish game, and you haven't looked like scoring, and you just think, oh, god, we're gonna lose this, aren't we?

And then in the dying moments, obviously, you get the equalizer, and you come away thinking, that was absolutely amazing, you're on cloud nine.

I mean, that's classic peak end for all, isn't it?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Is the history of goody bags, this someone who worked out this peak end rule, that if you give people loads of really cool stuff at the end, then they'll leave on a high and be like, oh, wow, that was an amazing event.

 

Jono Hey:

I did wonder if there's a pattern you could measure about if the weather is nice at the end of a holiday versus at the beginning.

How do you think back, thinking back on that holiday?

 

Rob Bell:

Hello, and welcome to Sketchplanations, The Podcast.

 

This is episode 16 and the final instalment of this, our first series, or depending on which side of the Atlantic your loyalties lie, our first season.

 

As such, you may well be expecting a huge finale, and rightly so.

 

Some kind of reward or payoff, some solace perhaps for all the precious time you've invested listening over the last four months, where all the loose ends are neatly tied up, where the good guys get their hard earned justice, and where the baddies either get their well deserved comeuppance, or as is often the case these days, where right at the very end, the baddies pull out an unimaginable new twist, setting up a whole new storyline, leaving you on yet another cliffhanger for series two.

 

Well, there's no such structure in this podcast.

 

No, sir.

 

Instead, we're gonna use our final episode to reflect on the last four months, to do our besties and worsties.

 

And so as not to break the whole purpose of this podcast, we'll of course pour over another Sketchplanations masterpiece.

 

And so for the final time this series, we say hello to the brains of this operation, the heart and soul of Sketchplanations, Jono Hey.

 

And we say hello to the femur and pelvis of peculiarity, the universal hip joint that regularly provides some mostly welcome, always unpredictable, new directions of conversation, Tom Pellereau.

 

Good evening, chaps.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Good evening.

 

Rob Bell:

Ah, how are we guys doing?

 

It's been a little while actually, because everyone's been off on holidays.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It is, and I think we have to start by understanding where you are at the moment, Rob.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, right, so you guys have been off on holidays, right, for the last couple of weeks.

 

I'm now on holiday, but I have found a location where I think I can make it work.

 

I am parked in my car next to a 5G transmitter in the French Alps.

 

And so via my phone, I have my laptop and my microphone and my headphones all plugged in in the back of my car.

 

The seats forward as far as they can to give me some room with one window open, but there's a festival going on down in the village.

 

So there's got a DJ set going.

 

So I'm a bit sweaty in here.

 

Jono Hey:

It's great dedication.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Unbelievable.

 

Well done.

 

Thank you.

 

Rob Bell:

Anything for the podcast.

 

But how are you guys?

 

Have you come back refreshed from your holidays?

 

Everyone get away and get home again safely?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yes, thank you.

 

I've just returned from a week off grid on an island in Scotland.

 

Yeah.

 

I had the most glorious weather, but lived without phone.

 

So no Wi-Fi, no internet, no electricity, no running water for seven days.

 

And it was the most fabulous time.

 

And the kids had so much fun sailing.

 

You know, we had to go out and collect the spring water and collect woods to buy for the stove.

 

And it's actually amazing how you can live a life and really enjoy it without these sort of necessities of modern day living.

 

It was fantastic.

 

Rob Bell:

I think it's amazing what you've just done to me.

 

Cause I mean, you say like a small remote island, but you guys were the only people on this island.

 

Is that right?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yes, we were the only people there.

 

And we were the only way, you know, the only way on and off was via the boats.

 

And it wasn't that far out to sea, but it was out to sea and we were fishing for food.

 

We'd obviously taken quite a lot of food with us as well.

 

How did that go?

 

We didn't have to, it wasn't a sort of bare grills experience.

 

It was very much a middle-class, well-prepared event.

 

But it was really, really cool.

 

And I literally didn't read a WhatsApp, a news article, an email or anything for seven days.

 

It was brilliant.

 

Jono Hey:

We stayed at an Airbnb for some of our holiday recently.

 

And I actually asked the host, cause it was on the coast, about fishing.

 

I said, we're planning on bringing a fishing rod, see if we can catch our dinner.

 

And she was like, yeah, yeah, that should be fine.

 

But about fishing, there's a pizza restaurant about 10 minutes down the road.

 

Tom Pellereau:

So we did genuinely catch some fish and we caught a crab as well, out using using pots and stuff, because they've been going there for a hundred years.

 

So they're really well, the family are really well prepared on this island.

 

But Jack, my 10 year old, he caught a fish on his very first cast of a, I'd been there for about 10 minutes sort of trying.

 

He's like, daddy, can I have a go?

 

So he sort of chucks it out, just winds it in.

 

And all of a sudden we've got a fish.

 

It was a terrifying and amazing experience.

 

So he's like, ah, what do I actually do?

 

I wasn't expecting to catch anything.

 

Rob Bell:

So when you say his first go, was that his first go ever fishing?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Ever, ever, ever, ever.

 

Rob Bell:

Oh my word.

 

Tom Pellereau:

So we then carried on for about an hour.

 

He didn't catch anything.

 

So it's not like he's sort of a prodigal fisher or anything, but it was genuinely the first time he touched and sort of cast with a rod.

 

So, yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

And so to Jono's question, sorry Jono, I spoke over you.

 

What was your question?

 

Jono Hey:

What was my question?

 

Did I have a question?

 

Oh, yeah, what did you do with the fish?

 

Tom Pellereau:

We ate, we reeled it in.

 

I then gutted it, de-headed it, filleted it, because I do know how to do that sort of stuff.

 

And then we actually made it into little fish goujons.

 

They were delicious.

 

Yeah.

 

Had them as a starter.

 

Rob Bell:

Wow.

 

Oh, it sounds idyllic.

 

It sounds amazing.

 

Are you pleased to be home or are you missing the island, a bit of both?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Definitely a bit of both.

 

It is quite nice being able to just turn a tap on.

 

Having a shower inside is really lovely without having to sort of warm the water up.

 

And you have this pump and then you'd be showering like in front of the world, which did mean it was a bit chilly, but also a lovely experience.

 

Jono Hey:

There's nothing like doing something like that to really make you appreciate being home, is there?

 

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, yeah.

 

Any skills or new perspectives that you've picked up on through doing this podcast that came in use whilst you were out there?

 

Tom Pellereau:

So, oh no, you asked that question though.

 

Flotsam and Jetsam did come up.

 

I was able to explain the difference between Flotsam and Jetsam.

 

Because the island uses a lot of kind of stuff that's washed up.

 

And I was able to explain that, that fishing crate, that's probably actually Flotsam rather than Jetsam.

 

So technically we should possibly give that back, or if we can.

 

Obviously that didn't go down quite so well.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, but by that stage, you were using it to heat the water.

 

Jono, how was your trip?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, it was lovely.

 

Yeah, quiet.

 

Lots of times to sleep, a lot of big exploration, actually.

 

We saw a lot of different parts of Europe that we hadn't otherwise seen.

 

Just spent a lot of quality time together.

 

We didn't listen to the podcast.

 

We listened to over 24 hours of Harry Potter audiobooks again.

 

That was great.

 

Rob Bell:

Fair enough.

 

Jono Hey:

Staggering amounts.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, great.

 

Just time away does give you kind of fresh perspectives on stuff, doesn't it?

 

When you come back home.

 

Jono Hey:

It also makes you really appreciate hotel breakfasts.

 

Just of all the highlights, hotel breakfasts, you know, joy.

 

Rob Bell:

Good stuff, boys.

 

Very, very good.

 

So at some point in last week's episode, when we were talking about quotes at the beginning, I kind of felt like I wanted to make it my aim for people to start quoting you guys, Jono and Tommy.

 

And that dream has started to come true.

 

We've had a listener comment in an email from Anna.

 

Tommy, the email address that she sent that into would be hello at sketchplanations.com.

 

Thank you.

 

And Anna says, in your episode about five ways to wellbeing, you talk about whether you have any quotes.

 

Well, she goes on to say, I quoted you to my team after the podcast on fungible versus non fungible goods.

 

And she then sets out the quote.

 

So, open inverted commas, the best managers are the people who notice the non fungibility in people.

 

Closing inverted commas, Jono Hey.

 

Ah, it's starting to come true boys.

 

And do you know what?

 

I think the floodgates have been opened now.

 

People are gonna be quoting you left, right and center.

 

And if you are, let us know, let us know.

 

We'd love to hear from you.

 

I would love to hear from you.

 

Thank you very much for that Anna.

 

Now, let's move on.

 

If this were a series grand finale episode, by now, just before the first ad break, we'd be at the start of a long story resolution.

 

The main protagonist would have recently regained full hero or heroine status, and you, the audience, would be on the edge of your seats, anxious to know who the killer really was.

 

But we're gonna talk about a sketch.

 

Let's podcast.

 

Nice.

 

To round off this series, we're gonna talk about Jono's sketch that addresses the peak end rule, which states that for our memory of experiences, be they good or bad, what really matters is the peak and the end of said experience.

 

And so with this as the final part of series one of this podcast, we really had better make this a belting episode, otherwise all the hard work we've put into this poem will be wasted.

 

All right then, Jono, over to you.

 

Where did you hear about the peak end rule?

 

What was interesting about it for you?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I know the peak end rule from some work by Dan Kahneman, and I believe Amos Tversky, and I mean, he's a fantastic book called Thinking Fast and Slow.

 

And the peak end rule, it's just really interesting.

 

It's really relevant to so many of our experiences.

 

So you can sort of compare your own experiences to this.

 

And decide whether or not you think it applies.

 

And we've actually had a few episodes, right, about how we are feeling about things in the moment.

 

So we talked about the different types of fun.

 

Last week, we talked about the five ways to wellbeing.

 

But this is really about not so much our experiences in the moment.

 

This is about how you remember them.

 

So thinking back on past experiences and the classic effect and why it's called the Peak End Rule is essentially you could have some experience and it might be fine all the way through.

 

And then you might have another experience where actually some parts of it are much worse than the other one, but it ends really positively or it has a really high peak in the middle, even though the rest of it is actually not really fun at all.

 

And what the Peak End Rule says is that you will tend to remember those ones more fondly based on the peak and the end enjoyment than the ones which were sort of steady all the way through.

 

And it works in both ways.

 

And so there are experiments on how enjoyable you found something and how you consider how enjoyable something was in the past, but also how unfun thing was or how painful it was.

 

I give an example in the sketch of a classic study which basically had participants sticking their hands in bowls of cold water that was painful.

 

And so the idea was in the experiment, people actually said that if they stuck their hand for 30 seconds in really cold water, that was one trial.

 

And then the other one was if you had your hands for 60 seconds in that same really cold water, but finished with 30 seconds of a bit warmer water, people actually said that they tended to find the one where you finished a bit warmer, less painful than the other one, even though you actually had your hand in cold water much longer.

 

And so that's like one of the examples on the painful side.

 

Anyway, the peak and end roll, I think it's just really interesting too.

 

And whenever you think about your own experiences, both small and longer, going, oh, well, how was the peak and how was the end?

 

And how do I consider that when I think back on it?

 

It's quite interesting to do.

 

Rob Bell:

I think I've read a little bit about this.

 

And I think it says, to make that kind of comparison or to have an assessment on it, it does need to have a kind of definite start and a definite end to it.

 

So that experience can kind of be framed, kind of can be bookended.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, yeah.

 

A lot of them were from experiments which obviously have start and end.

 

Yeah, sometimes it's like a period in your life where you were at this place for some time and then you left.

 

Other times, I was thinking sports is one that comes up again, but where you really have a defined start and end.

 

And I was trying to think, how like devastating it is when people miss a penalty and a shootout at the end of a match.

 

But what would happen if you played the shootout at the beginning and then you played-

 

And if it was a draw, you took the result of the shootout.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Oh my God, that would be way better.

 

Jono Hey:

And I was just wondering, I was trying to go, well, would you feel less devastated?

 

That penalty taker who missed the last penalty, would they feel less devastated?

 

Play the game afterwards.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And they feel they've got a chance to try and make up for it during the game.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

 

Tom Pellereau:

That's a brilliant idea, Jono.

 

Why don't we do that?

 

Rob Bell:

Do you know the comedian, Alex Horne?

 

Jono Hey:

I don't know.

 

Rob Bell:

He's the guy on Taskmaster.

 

How is he?

 

He did this recently.

 

He put on a charity football match with a load of comedians and kind of celebs and stuff.

 

And they started with a penalty shootout and then played the rest of the game.

 

And there were a load of kind of silly rules in and amongst the game as well.

 

But they started with a penalty shootout and then just took that score into the game.

 

It's quite fun.

 

I've been to football matches as a supporter where I say, you've gone one nil down early on and then it's been a pretty rubbish game and you haven't looked like scoring and it just think, oh God, we're going to lose this, aren't we?

 

And then in the dying moments, obviously you get the equaliser and you come away thinking that was absolutely amazing.

 

You're on cloud nine.

 

I mean, that's classic peak end rule, isn't it?

 

Jono Hey:

Absolutely.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Absolutely.

 

And actually, Jono, I will never forget in Bath, from uni together, the five of us went out for a drink and it just so happened there was a Southampton game on the TV.

 

And do you remember it?

 

I think Southampton, it was the most thrilling.

 

It was like a Newcastle Liverpool type game.

 

And Southampton ended up losing like five, four or something having been like four, two up.

 

And we hadn't really got out to watch the game.

 

It just happened to be there.

 

So we're like, oh, I miss our watch.

 

And it turned into this amazing game, but then just a dreadful, dreadful end, especially for you as a real hardcore son.

 

And it just killed the evening.

 

I remember just like, oh, okay.

 

Well, it's only like nine o'clock and Jono's completely depressed.

 

And it was sort of then when I decided, well, maybe actually football isn't just a great thing to support because it can just ruin days.

 

Rob Bell:

And you were, you were just short.

 

But that's it.

 

So that's Peake Ends that we've described two of exactly the same thing, one positive, one negative and the effects it has on us.

 

I think that's the thing.

 

Like it's actually quite powerful and can have lasting impacts on you.

 

I mean, football matches, hopefully within a few hours it's worn off, but bigger things.

 

I mean, one thing I thought about was different jobs within your career.

 

And if maybe towards the end of your time with a particular company or an employer, things just go a bit sour and you leave and it's not great, that could kind of leave a sour taste in your mouth on the whole experience, the Peake End rule kicks in again.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, yeah, I think that's really, really powerful.

 

And I always try very hard to make sure whenever I have left jobs in the past to make sure you try and get to a sort of a decent end for both parties.

 

And when people have left our team, I've always tried desperately hard to ensure that we're on at least reasonable terms.

 

Because as you say, it can really, really affect your ongoing memory of a role of a job, which, you know, looking at its peak rate, you could have been there for three years and it ends really well or it ends really badly, it can have a massive effect on how you remember it completely.

 

Jono Hey:

I've sometimes wondered that around.

 

If that thing where football players, there have been ones people have like, literally their last game was winning the World Cup.

 

And like, if your last game is winning the World Cup, you're clearly like, still an unbelievable player.

 

So there's no reason why you need to stop playing.

 

But yet they end on such a high that they have that glow stays on their career probably.

 

And maybe their own reflections of their career for the rest of their life.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, so Robbie, as a cricket supporter, I'm sure, was shoe abroad.

 

Rob Bell:

Exactly, Tommy.

 

Tom Pellereau:

You know, we can't not have this conversation without mentioning him, Jono.

 

But he retired after Ashes.

 

He got the last two vital wickets to win the game and draw the series.

 

And also he hit a six off his last ball.

 

It's like utter fairy tale.

 

And he's retiring, like literally at the peak of his game.

 

And then there's another poor guy, bowler, Flynn, who's recently retired.

 

And he's retired just because he basically just keeps on getting injured.

 

And he's been sort of playing for county.

 

And him and Stuart played really quite a lot of games together, but just the difference of the public's perception and also their own perception, I'm sure, of their retirements would be just astonishing.

 

Rob Bell:

With the peak end rule, you know, if it's good or bad, especially on those kinds of career things there, which are huge parts of our lives, right?

 

If it goes out well, great, you'll remember that.

 

And that will kind of lodge within you.

 

And that will be something really good for your mental wellbeing.

 

But conversely, if it doesn't go so well, even though it might just be the how you came out and the rest of your career could have been great, that as well is gonna stick with you and could affect your mental wellbeing as well.

 

So these things are quite, it is quite powerful psychologically, I think.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, I think it's really important.

 

And thank you, Jono, for raising the awareness of this, that we have this kind of emotional feeling to things.

 

So remember that towards the end of something, you gotta try and make it as good as it can be.

 

Otherwise, it can dramatically, detrimentally affect things.

 

I have this a lot with going away on holidays.

 

When you're flying home or you're traveling home, you've been, say, to a lovely weekend or weekend somewhere gorgeous, like Greece or something.

 

You've had the most amazing time.

 

And there's some highs that you remember, but then you always have to come home eventually.

 

And that last day, that traveling day can be okay.

 

And it can be really quite bad.

 

Jono Hey:

I did wonder if there's a pattern you could measure about if the weather is nice at the end of a holiday versus at the beginning.

 

Like if the weather is lovely for the first three days and terrible for the last three, versus it's a bit rubbish, but then it picks up and is gorgeous as you leave.

 

You know, how do you think thinking back on that holiday?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

I think it would.

 

I think it would be, one would be a positive, one would be a negative, P.

 

Kendrell.

 

Tom Pellereau:

So I was wondering, is that one of the reasons why you have goodie bags at like parties?

 

So people leave on a real high, like, you know, when you have the kids part and you give them a load of sweets and cake and there's this goodie bag.

 

Cause this is front of mind, cause today we were deciding on the goodie bags for an event we're doing in September, a new launch event.

 

Hopefully Jono and Rob, you're both gonna be able to come in London for our new product launch.

 

And we've been deciding what to put in the goodie bags, which was like a really big thing of especially beauty product launches.

 

And I was like, is the history of goodie bags, this someone who worked out this peak end rule that if you give people loads of really cool stuff at the end, then they'll leave on a high and be like, oh wow, that was an amazing event.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, I think that's a great segue into another kind of topic discussion of this, because there are ways to design peak end into your experiences or your products or your services or whatever it is.

 

And it happens left, right and center.

 

I think, and one area happens a lot, I think Jono is in UX, right?

 

Designing of user experiences with websites and online services.

 

Jono Hey:

You know, you might well be right there.

 

Although I have to say, I've not actively considered the peak end rule while I'm designing my online services.

 

But I probably would if I was working at a hotel or I ran events, just like you're saying, Tom.

 

Rob Bell:

I know, for example, like Duolingo, right?

 

You know, the app on the phone to learn languages.

 

Yes.

 

There's a little chap, there's a little kind of character, cartoon character on there.

 

And if you get through your lesson, you know, you get through one module and you do it well, he'll kind of pop up and say, well done, mate, you've done really well.

 

On to the next one.

 

He kind of gives you a nice ending to that thing.

 

It's nice and fun.

 

And I think there's another online software I was reading about today.

 

And it's an online software for filing your taxes, right?

 

Notoriously, a very unfun thing to have to do.

 

But once you've done it, this guy kind of pops up and there's a chap at his desk, kind of like, yay, well done.

 

And it's like that relief, you're like, yeah, thanks, I have done well there.

 

Yes, and it's that peak ending that they can just kind of feed in.

 

So you can design it into experiences.

 

And I'm sure lots of people do this all the time.

 

I mean, I was thinking about films and TV series, how you might design that in and how you might write that.

 

Roller coasters is another thing.

 

Any big music gig, you know, the last tune that they play is always massive and there's pyrotechnics and all sorts of stuff going on.

 

So I think it is used quite a lot to leave a lasting impression.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Jono, do you use MailChimp at all?

 

For your email sending out?

 

Because at MailChimp, if it's sending out marketing emails to big things, it can be quite daunting to do and then quite scary.

 

And when you're to the MailChimp, it was always quite amusing because sort of towards the end process, it then puts a blank screen with a big red button in the middle with a sort of high five saying, are you ready to press the big button sort of thing?

 

And you sort of hit this button, you press this button, it's quite sort of cartoony.

 

And then it sort of goes high fives and there's a big sort of high fives left in the middle of the screen kind of thing.

 

And again, a jokey way, go, yeah, you did it.

 

And it's sort of really celebratory that you've reached the end of your goal.

 

And most marketing platforms, they're not nearly that fun.

 

And I really enjoy using it as a result of that.

 

Rob Bell:

And if that is your last interaction for that, you know, mail thing that you have to send out, then great, you got away going, yeah, nice.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, I did a good one.

 

Jono Hey:

It's a bit like-

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, it's clever.

 

Jono Hey:

I mean, we talked last week about how learning, and there's actually got a nice sketch called The Learning Pit, learning itself is not always fun and comfortable along the way.

 

But there is always that satisfaction, assuming you get to the end, when you get it, you understand it or you finish something.

 

And so I guess that maybe that keeps us coming back for more.

 

We forget how hard and uncomfortable it was along the way.

 

And then remember the satisfaction of actually, once we figured it out, or once we've managed to file our taxes or complete the next lesson in Duolingo.

 

Rob Bell:

And that leads us on to somewhere, Jono, that none of us are qualified at all to talk about.

 

But I have heard that childbirth can be peak end rule in that quite often, and what do I know?

 

Tom Pellereau:

I think maybe we're just going to just not talk about this.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, it's a horrendously tough experience.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Insanely unqualified to talk about childbirth.

 

Rob Bell:

We are.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I've been there for two.

 

Rob Bell:

But yet the human population continues.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's an amazing ending moment.

 

Rob Bell:

The payoff is massive, right?

 

And so much so that we have been inclined to do it again and again.

 

Otherwise, we wouldn't be existing as a human race.

 

Jono Hey:

I was thinking about the phrase, was it rose-tinted glasses, where you look back on the past and remember the good bits.

 

And actually, I do have a sketchplanation about something called the fading affect bias, which is where, and I think, I presume it's, you know, an evolutionary thing potentially, which is the emotional intensity of negative memories fades faster than for positive, which is just generally is a really good thing in life.

 

So, yeah, thank God, the emotional intensity of, yeah, the times that made us feel worse, that fades pretty quick, but we still remember the highs over longer than we do the negatives.

 

Yeah, that's perhaps something like it there.

 

Rob Bell:

I have heard that talked about with childbirth as well, and the proliferation of the human race.

 

Let's move on from childbirth.

 

As you say, we're woefully unqualified to talk about it.

 

I did read about exercise classes, and you know, if you go to a gym and you do a class, and it has become a thing where they're designed now, where at the end, so they're going to work you, they're going to absolutely beast you through that class, and you're in pain, and it hurts, and it's hard.

 

And some people really, really love that, but you might not be inclined to go back if it was too much for you.

 

And at the end, there's like a five minutes really calm set, maybe even just concentrate on breathing, where you lay down and you get your heart rate back down, and it's a moment of kind of quiet contemplation that sends you away going, oh, actually that wasn't so bad, really, was it?

 

Great, I'll book up for next week.

 

That's a good idea.

 

Jono Hey:

Makes a ton of sense.

 

Rob Bell:

I started thinking this could be a thing to start thinking about if you're planning an activity for a group.

 

You could positively try to ensure there's something, like a big high or something really fun at the very end of it.

 

Do you know, this kind of...

 

No, I was going to say it happened to us.

 

Remember when we went for a meal in Cannes, Jono, after a big event?

 

It had been a really, really big day, and the meal itself was lovely, but it was quite pricey.

 

And then we went out and we walked along the promenade and we bought some ice creams from a street vendor or something, and they were like, ah, this is lovely.

 

What a great meal.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, Jesus.

 

We're designing the future memories of our experiences.

 

Rob Bell:

Exactly.

 

But why not?

 

If you're organising a weekend away or something with a group of friends, just make sure there's something right at the very end of it that's a real positive surprise for everybody.

 

So no matter how well that weekend went, the chances are more people will think better of it when they think back because of the old peak end rule.

 

Jono Hey:

Spot on.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's a really good idea.

 

It reminds me of a story chatting to my Australian distributor once where he obviously, long flights, when you work in Australia and you need to travel to Europe or to America, they're really long flights.

 

And when he goes to business in America, when he flew back, he then go in the Australian airport, he then go and get a massage at the airport and landed before he then went home.

 

And at the time I was like, how the hell do you get away with that with your wife?

 

Like you've been away for five days and you can just have another couple of hours of massage at the airport.

 

But with the peak end rule, you know, he's had probably pretty hard flight to then get a nice massage when he lands.

 

And then he's in a much nicer mood as he comes into the house.

 

So maybe there's something really clever about that, that we must make sure that our return journey from the airport is something is really nice, like that you've actually booked a cab or you've gone for a slightly more expensive parking.

 

That extra 50 quid versus the whole cost of a holiday might make a really big effect or that you've got something arranged for when you get home.

 

Rob Bell:

I'm fully subscribed to this.

 

Jono Hey:

Maybe hotels get disproportionate value back from the effort they put into breakfasts just before people leave.

 

Have an amazing breakfast and you just, I don't remember what the room was like, but that hotel was amazing.

 

So that would work for the kids, right?

 

It has worked.

 

Rob Bell:

One thing I'm very conscious about in, this is often in customer service, if I've had a really good interaction, but it starts to go on a little bit long, that does kind of leave me with a peak end of, oh, that could have been rounded off a bit quicker.

 

I'm not sure how much I really enjoyed that.

 

So I'm very conscious of that.

 

And I'm quite conscious about this podcast now as well.

 

Is there anything else we want to say that we urgently want to talk about on Peak End Rule?

 

Oh, sorry.

 

Yeah, go on.

 

I love it how there's always good pauses there when people think, I've got this to say, is it worth it?

 

Yes, it is worth it.

 

Let's go.

 

Tom Pellereau:

As Jono's, don't fill the silence.

 

Go on, Jono.

 

Jono Hey:

Just make space for everyone.

 

No, I was going to say one thing that, because Peak End Rule is about how we reflect on our past experiences.

 

It's curious how that is our experience in the moment.

 

And I remember there was another bit in the book by Dan Kahneman about when he said, well, when does your car make you happy if you buy a fancy car or a nice car?

 

And he's like, the answer is when you think about your car, which was a surprising one, because it's like you're choosing right now to have to think about your past experiences.

 

And that is affecting how you're feeling in the moment and whether or not you're enjoying yourself.

 

And I remember I had a housemate once.

 

He said, well, if you have really bad experiences, I just always just try not to think about them anymore.

 

And there is I think there is something in that.

 

I mean, it sounds a bit a bit glib, like it's hard not to think about bad experience.

 

It's easy to play it over in your mind.

 

But then there is a thing like actually you kind of got a choice.

 

What am I doing now?

 

Am I going to ruin my moment now and my future by replaying this bad event?

 

No, I just and so I do.

 

I channel that sometimes when I find myself replaying.

 

Maybe it was being stuck in cues on the way back or something like that, some rubbish bit.

 

I'm like, well, just let's just forget about that.

 

I'm going to actively choose to drop that as much as I can for my memory to shape how I'm feeling now and in the future.

 

And I think it's not always easy, but to some degree you have a little bit of a choice about how you let your past experiences affect your now and your future.

 

So I learned that from my housemate.

 

Smart guy.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Well, it's that thing of you don't always have a choice as to what happens to you in life or how people treat you in a certain moment, but you do to a point always have a choice as to how you think upon those.

 

I think it's very easy for me to say because I've had a very nice life and been treated very nicely during my life.

 

And there are some people who really haven't had that privilege.

 

Especially when Jack and Poppy, my kids are sort of fighting because Jack has just said this to Poppy and Poppy is like, and she's like, Oh, but he did this.

 

I was like, Poppy, you don't have to be angry in this moment.

 

Yes, you might not have agreed of what I've just said, but you are choosing now to be upset and you don't have to be.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

Maybe not for the podcast.

 

One I thought you were going to mention when you were getting on to the childbirth was the ultimate happy ending.

 

Maybe it keeps people coming back.

 

What?

 

Rob Bell:

The ultimate happy ending?

 

Tom Pellereau:

I was wondering if someone would bring up happy ending.

 

I was like, just don't bring up it.

 

Rob Bell:

Jono has done it.

 

Jono Hey:

No, I'm in control of what we keep in or out of this one.

 

Rob Bell:

Didn't we informally agree that we wouldn't talk about sex on this podcast?

 

Because bloody hell, no one wants to hear that.

 

Jono Hey:

Swiftly moving on.

 

Rob Bell:

I thought it would be really nice to kind of round off this series with the peak end rule in hope that there would be some kind of rub off on to our listeners thinking, yeah, that was a good series.

 

But what I'm going to suggest that we do now just to round off this episode and to round off the series is to just have a little bit of time to reflect back on what we've done over the last four months.

 

We've produced, well, this is episode 16.

 

I mean, there's lots of stuff we could talk about.

 

But I thought it would be nice to start off just kind of asking ourselves, what was it about doing this podcast that we thought might be fun, that we thought we might want to do when we came up with the idea?

 

Tom Pellereau:

So, Rob, we talked about doing this for a while, and the idea of being on for an hour of a Tuesday evening with yourself and Jono is always going to be amazing.

 

But my issue is always what were we going to talk about each week?

 

And attaching it to Jono's Sketchplanations has just been genius because we've learnt a lot.

 

Hopefully, we've helped disseminate some really useful information, and we've put a little bit of story behind some of them.

 

Some good stories, some maybe not.

 

They've been good fun for me.

 

Anyway, I do always wish that I could remember more of my own stories, but that seems to be a bit of an ongoing challenge for myself.

 

So I've loved it.

 

I hope that people have enjoyed this series.

 

If you haven't caught them all, please listen back to some of them.

 

There's some really good ones.

 

Rob Bell:

Any challenges you guys have found in coming together to make this happen?

 

I mean, obviously, we had some sound challenges that we...

 

I think we've overcome them now, but you know, you guys have made the time as well.

 

Find the time in your busy weeks to do it.

 

Jono Hey:

Is he talking about challenges making the podcast?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, he's talking about how the fact that we've got over most of the challenges.

 

Ironically, we can't actually hear him.

 

Jono Hey:

Is he hanging from the satellite dish?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, he's climbing up the dish.

 

Rob Bell:

This is very odd.

 

So Tommy, you can hear me, but Jono, you can't.

 

Is that right?

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's just about.

 

So hopefully, certainly my sound quality has improved.

 

Recording at sort of 9 till 1030 p.m.

 

on a Tuesday has been a little bit challenging sometimes for my own personal energy during some of the months.

 

But to have these episodes up and able to listen back to is being wonderful.

 

Rob Bell:

One of my favorite challenges for you, Tommy, was when Jono and I came online to do an episode and we waited around for about five minutes and you didn't pop up online on our screen.

 

So we started texting, no response.

 

So we put a call in and you were all yawning and you were just getting yourself ready for bed.

 

You just loaded the dishwasher and getting ready for bed.

 

Completely forgotten.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I think I was also feeling really quite ill and I was like, oh, I was literally ready to pass out.

 

Rob Bell:

That was a good one.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And then, of course, you get the sort of energy of being on a discussion and I didn't want that one to end.

 

Rob Bell:

That was a good one.

 

I wanted to say thank you to Franc Cinelli for providing the music for the podcast, if anyone is interested.

 

Driver is the opening theme, the opening song that we've, well, for me, has become synonymous with the podcast.

 

Whenever I hear it, I go, oh, podcast.

 

The little clip I use between the intro and the main part of the podcast is a song called The Impossible Breaks Free.

 

And Julius Plays His Winning Ace is the music that we use at the end.

 

You can go and find all of Frank's stuff on Spotify or Apple Music or wherever you get your music from.

 

But I wanted to say a big thank you to Frankie for that, because I love how we've integrated music into the podcast.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And this is not the end.

 

We will be continuing.

 

We've already got the dates in our diary, so we're not going to do a kind of Lord of the Rings scenario where the film just keeps on going and going.

 

Thank you very much.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, absolutely.

 

Massive thank you to all of our listeners.

 

We're so very grateful that you've tuned in.

 

And we really do hope to bring you a lot more fun and more informative podcasts in future series.

 

Yeah, thank you very much.

 

And an even bigger thank you to everybody who's corresponded with us as well.

 

We've genuinely I just love that.

 

I love that people have taken the time to write to us to share their experiences or to give us feedback on on the podcast.

 

And we've had some lovely, lovely messages about that, which we haven't necessarily read out.

 

But we've had some lovely messages about how people are just enjoying the podcast generally.

 

It is so lovely and not at all what we wanted to do this, but it does make you feel nice that people have responded in that way.

 

So thank you all very, very much for all of that.

 

I'd be really interested to know if you can hear me in this question, Jono.

 

I'd be really interested to know if you've got something different out of Sketchplanations through doing the podcast.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Did you hear that, Jono?

 

Jono Hey:

I did, yeah.

 

If I think back to the beginning when you first suggested it, I mean, part of me thinks thought it was a bit of a mad idea to make a podcast of something which is...

 

Tom Pellereau:

You thought it was the dumbest idea ever, right?

 

I did a sketch.

 

Why do we need to talk about it?

 

Jono Hey:

Which is all visual, yeah.

 

But then I guess a few nice things.

 

One is that I just reflect on actually, it is really just about sharing the ideas and the visual is a way to do that.

 

But a podcast is a great way to do that.

 

And it has been a really nice way to talk about the ideas.

 

I'm always really conscious with all of the sketches pretty much, that I'm just like touching the surface and there's a real danger of oversimplifying.

 

And so I think of them as like a window into something.

 

And if you think, if you're interested, you can go dive in and go read more and find out more about it.

 

And there's probably a world of stuff to go learn about things.

 

And it's really difficult to be an expert on all of these things because they're so diverse.

 

So it has been nice to get a chance to talk more about them.

 

And I have, I mean, in some cases, during the discussions, definitely it's helped me think about some of these ideas differently, which has been brilliant.

 

And on top of that, I've been quite surprised that I've had a really good time talking about these things.

 

I mean, doing the sketches is quite an individual pursuit.

 

It's somewhat lonely, just me just doing the sketches and putting it out there.

 

And you don't always get a lot of feedback.

 

So it's been lovely to chat about them with you guys and actually listening back has made me laugh quite a lot, which is brilliant and not something you get from just drawing and writing sketches.

 

Rob Bell:

I'm very pleased.

 

It's been a lot of fun doing all of that.

 

And so as we move on into the next series, I just want to keep doing more of that.

 

Jono Hey:

I just think it's a privilege for anyone who...

 

People talk about the attention economy.

 

People have a lot of places of where you can spend your time these days and where you put your attention.

 

And so if anybody's looking at the sketches, that's brilliant.

 

And if this is able to reach some different people or the same people in a different way, then that's brilliant.

 

And it always feels a privilege.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, lovely.

 

Well, chaps, with the peak end rule in mind, to avoid this becoming too long an episode in too long a series, I'm going to call proceedings to a close there.

 

That's it.

 

That's Series 1 done.

 

Jono and Tommy, thank you both very, very much for bringing me a whole tonne of joy once a week over the last four months.

 

I'm really looking forward to the next series.

 

And finally, once again, thank you, whoever you are out there for listening.

 

Go well and stay well.

 

We'll be back in a few weeks.

 

Goodbye.

 

Jono Hey:

Goodbye.

 

All music on this podcast series is sourced from the very talented Franc Cinelli.

 

You can find loads more tracks at franccinelli.com.