The Law of Diminishing Returns

Rob Bell:

Ladies and gentlemen, before we get going in earnest on this week's podcast, we've a special announcement to make.

 

Jono, over to you.

 

Jono Hey:

Thank you, Robert.

 

I just wanted to say that just recently, I got my very first physical advanced copies of the new book of Sketchplanations called Big Ideas, Little Pictures.

 

Rob Bell:

Come on.

 

Jono Hey:

Explaining the world one sketch at a time.

 

And I have to say, it's really nice.

 

But I would say that, obviously, I have to say that, but it is genuinely really nice.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Can you hold it up again for us, please?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, there we go.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Because we have seen some of the copies, obviously some of the photos.

 

So that is, look at that.

 

Jono Hey:

So it's, yeah, what you can't see that I'm holding up, it is about seven inches by seven.

 

So it's square, but it's quite chunky.

 

It's got like a lot of body to it and a lovely cover illustration.

 

And it's packed full of 130 plus sketches, many from the archives that you probably haven't seen and a bunch of new ones in there, especially made for the book.

 

Rob Bell:

Now I have seen it.

 

And so as a totally impartial member to this, best friend or, yeah.

 

I can say it is excellent.

 

It feels good.

 

It feels weighty.

 

It feels like pure quality just oozing out of this book.

 

And when you flick through it, there's colour and there's intrigue on every single page.

 

So Jono, if people were interested to find out more about this or even to put in a pre-order, where would they go?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, it's dead easy.

 

It's at sketchplanations.com/book.

 

And I should say that it is, it's out for pre-order.

 

It's released in the US 9th of April and in the UK on 13th of May and other countries and other areas.

 

I'm trying as much as I can, working with the publisher to get more distribution in all across the world.

 

Australia's had a lot of calls for it in that, for example.

 

So, but sketchplanations.com/book, there's a few little videos, there's a little bit, some photos of it there.

 

So go check it out.

 

Thank you.

 

People say the devil is in the detail, but I think like the diamonds are in the details.

 

Like actually, sometimes the details really matter.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I had a relationship where we went out canoeing and I did get out on the sandbank in the middle of the estuary.

 

You had enough, couldn't take it.

 

Jono Hey:

I had a few deep breaths.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I literally got out and had to have a bit of a moment.

 

Rob Bell:

Same with like food and treats, you know, a nice little bit of chocolate every now and then.

 

Ooh, that's nice.

 

Jono Hey:

Cheesecake, I really like cheesecake, but if I was having it every day, pretty soon, you'd lose the taste of it.

 

Rob Bell:

More is more, faster is fitter, bigger is better.

Don't be so naïve.

 

Hello and welcome to Sketchplanations, The Podcast.

 

How did you get here?

 

What?

 

How did you get here?

 

What do you mean?

 

Like what transport did I take?

 

Or what route?

 

How did you get here?

 

Oh, do you mean in life?

 

How did I get to this point in life where I'm talking to you here and now?

 

How did you get here?

 

How did you get here?

 

Listen, I'm done with this, mate.

 

I don't know who you are or what you're trying to do, but you're an idiot.

 

No matter how you got here, we're very pleased that you are.

 

I'm Rob Bell.

 

Came on the bus.

 

And joining me on the podcast, energized from their tenacious tandem ride here, uphill and down dale, at the helm and in charge of navigation, it's Jono Hey.

 

And sneakily watching YouTube clips of 1980s movie blunders on his phone at the rear, it's Tom Pellereau.

 

Good evening, my friends.

 

How are you both?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Very well, thank you.

 

Very well.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

Ah, tandems.

 

Tommy, have you still got your tandem?

 

I remember you had one years ago.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Absolutely.

 

Rob Bell:

I mean, you got it.

 

Did you buy that for the specific reason I'm thinking of?

 

Tom Pellereau:

So Sarah got it, borrowed it from a friend for our first, second ever date.

 

And then later she actually managed to buy it from the guy because he was moving away.

 

And then we did it up and we actually rode away from our wedding on it, on our wedding day.

 

Rob Bell:

That's what I was thinking of.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, it was incredible.

 

Rob Bell:

It was brilliant.

 

It was brilliant.

 

And you have your photos.

 

Yeah.

 

So it didn't have just married on the back.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah.

 

A little sign on the back.

 

And there was a bit of controversy, which I didn't really realise until later that the night before Sarah's mum, my wife's mum, had said, you can't, you can't, you definitely can't leave the wedding on that.

 

And Sarah was adamant that we were.

 

I didn't know about this at all.

 

So they almost had a massive falling out the night before the wedding.

 

And Sarah had to do loads of sort of maintenance on the bike to ensure that no oil went on her, on her wedding dress on the day, which was obviously what Sarah's mum was most concerned about.

 

Rob Bell:

Have you still got it?

 

Yeah.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And I've got to say, it is a really good new relationship tester.

 

When we've got friends coming over and they're sort of newly together or they've only been together about a year, cause it's quite difficult to ride.

 

It requires quite a lot of coordination and the brakes are not kind of great.

 

So you've got to do it together and you've got to be in time.

 

And the sort of mini little arguments or sometimes really quite big arguments are really quite enjoyable to watch.

 

Jono Hey:

Canoes are similar, aren't they?

 

You're like, no.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Pedal right, pedal right.

 

Jono Hey:

No, the other way.

 

I am doing it, but you're steering, but no, you're going the wrong way.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Stressful.

 

Jono, you're absolutely right.

 

Cause I had a relationship where we went out canoeing and I did get out on the sandbank in the middle of the estuary.

 

It was just, just, just, it just wasn't going well.

 

Jono Hey:

Really?

 

Rob Bell:

You left him there?

 

Tom Pellereau:

I literally got out and had to have a bit of a moment cause like, this is not, this is...

 

Rob Bell:

Oh, that is excellent.

 

That is very good.

 

Tom Pellereau:

A long time ago, but you are right.

 

Very good tests.

 

Rob Bell:

Of course we've, we've all experienced a tandem, right?

 

Or six, a six man bike for the charity thing we did a few years ago.

 

We rode a six man bike.

 

It was, yeah, from London to Amsterdam, six, six saddles all in a line.

 

It was about, I don't know, five, six meter long bike.

 

Massive thing.

 

Jono Hey:

Nearly impossible to steer.

 

Only Tom could do it.

 

Rob Bell:

Mini roundabouts were an absolute nightmare.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And especially dangerous for the person at the back.

 

Jono Hey:

You just get straight through him.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I think a couple of times the person at the back got clipped off by some kind of sign or post or something like that.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, it's probably why they don't sell them commercially.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And the fact that, where would you store it anyway?

 

Rob Bell:

Anyway, yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

I was reminded though, as you said that, about a sketch I have in tandem, because it was around that time when we did it, that I learned that in tandem isn't anything to do with like two people.

 

I guess I always thought it was like two people.

 

Rob Bell:

I did, yeah.

 

Is it not?

 

Jono Hey:

That's always what you see.

 

No, and it actually means one in front of another.

 

So you could have a carriage pulled by two horses side by side as a pair, or you could have the horses in tandem and one in front of another, or you could have six people on a bike in tandem.

 

One in front of another.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Okay, nice.

 

Then something new every day.

 

Jono Hey:

It's an old one, but still going.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, good.

 

Well, look, whatever journey you've been on to have ended up listening to this podcast will possibly be a story of adventure in itself, a long stream of lifestyle decisions, turns in the road.

 

And let's not forget your friend of mine, Google algorithms.

 

And now that you are here, let's do it.

 

Let's podcast.

 

And I have to say that the boys did really well there because we had to do all of that chat again, because I forgot to record the first one and it was organic and it was natural.

 

We took it in different directions.

 

Boys, well done.

 

Apologies for my mistakes.

 

Jono Hey:

Professionals.

 

Rob Bell:

Let's Podcast!

 

This week, we're tackling Jono's very fun sketch, actually, on The Law of Diminishing Returns.

 

Now, you should be able to see that sketch in front of you now on your device, but there's a link in the podcast description as well, just in case your podcast player has other ideas.

 

You can find the whole of the back catalog of Jono's sketches at sketchplanations.com.

 

And if you'd like to send us a note about the podcast, or anything we talk about within it, now or in fact, any of the previous episodes, you can wing your emails over to.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Hello at sketchplanations.com.

 

Rob Bell:

You'd have thought the second time around, it'd have been on that a bit quicker.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I'm quite now when you're going to say it.

 

I was quicker that time, but it's true.

 

Rob Bell:

We'll be going through your messages from last week at the end of the podcast.

 

Thank you, Tommy.

 

Jono, I already know the answer to this question, but I'm going to ask you anyway, because it brings me a lot of joy to think about it again.

 

Please, can you describe your sketch on The Law of Diminishing Returns?

 

And tell us where your idea for the sketch came from.

 

Jono Hey:

So The Law of Diminishing Returns is, I know it from production processes, which is typically that at some point, doing more of one thing stops giving you the same amount of benefit it did when you started adding more of it.

 

And so I was trying to give a more concrete example that people would get.

 

And so the sketch is just a chart of broth quality, a number of cooks is something that hopefully everybody can relate to with the old phrase, too many cooks spoil the broth.

 

And so on the one hand, you've got this sole chef cook, I should say, standing next to a giant vat of broth and the quality is low.

 

And then as you add cooks, the broth quality increases until way over on the right-hand side, you've got like 12 cooks and half of them are just having a tea break and the other half again in each other's way.

 

And the broth quality has decreased again, so the idea is that as you start adding cooks, it helps, but it gradually starts to help less and less until you can often get to a point where as you add more of something, it actually gets worse.

 

And I think there are a lot of examples of that.

 

I should say that I've linked to it in the text underneath, but it comes from the idea that comes from a sketch series, BBC sketch a long time ago.

 

It was a bit of a love it or hate it kind of series.

 

Rob Bell:

Big Train is the name of the series, if you wanna look it up.

 

Jono Hey:

But one of them was just brilliant every time I see it, which is somebody who's working in the broth department of a factory and they're having a big seminar and somebody's up at the front and he's got a big whiteboard with a diagram a bit like this with all these chefs crowded around some broth and he's explaining to everybody, the vat of broth has too many broth makers or cooks, if you will.

 

And it's this surfeit of cooks that's having such a negative impact on the broth.

 

There's too many cooking staff and it's ruining the product.

 

You'd think, wouldn't you, that adding more cooks would make it better, but no.

 

Rob Bell:

It's making it worse.

 

Jono Hey:

It's actually Simon Pegg in one of his really early roles and he's sitting there.

 

Rob Bell:

It's full of comedy acting genius.

 

Jono Hey:

There's a few on YouTube of mixed quality, but some are hilarious.

 

So this one is excellent, yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

The main protagonist of the sketch has previously been at the cake factory, right?

 

And he's been moved to the broth division because of his smart aleck quips.

 

And in the cakes, getting in the cake division, there was a positive feedback sales report, wasn't it, on how their slightly warmed up cakes were selling really well.

 

Jono Hey:

Being bought at a tremendous rate.

 

Selling like nobody's business.

 

Selling like they're going out of fashion, because we've warmed them up first.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, you could say.

 

Jono Hey:

Selling like, oh, cakes?

 

Rob Bell:

I'll put a link in the podcast description to that sketch.

 

It's well worth a watch, as are many other Big Train sketches.

 

Absolutely.

 

Jono Hey:

It's probably funnier when Simon Pegg does it.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, well, you know, but it's hard to explain sketches, isn't it?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, and that's the genesis of the sketch, really.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, and it works really well, right?

 

Because it makes the point, because everyone knows the expression, Too Many Cooks Spoil The Broth, right?

 

Jono Hey:

Exactly.

 

Rob Bell:

But so it was in production and production manufacturing, that kind of thing that you first were thinking of it.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, and like I say in my job and the design of products all the time, you know, like if you're doing uptime for software, for example, like if you don't want your site to go down, you can work on eliminating every last second of downtime and every last problem and every last bug, but the effort to go those last few cases is sometimes huge.

 

There's a really nice classic example, and I do have a sketch of this actually, which is that if you do five user tests, you typically find 85% of problems.

 

Oh, okay.

 

So if you make a new design, do some tests, you'll keep finding problems if you keep showing it to more people.

 

But actually, if you do five, you'll find 85% of the problems.

 

So go fix those and then go do it again if you want to.

 

And so as you add more, you get that law of diminishing returns kicking in.

 

And I think you always have those decisions of like, how much is good enough?

 

And is it worth us going that extra mile?

 

Like if you're trying to machine something to a certain precision or tolerance, if you want to go that extra little bit, it might cost you a fortune to go to that extra little bit.

 

Rob Bell:

So how much is it worth it?

 

In return, will you be getting from having a product of that much higher quality that's cost that much to produce?

 

Is that going to come back to you in sales or in revenue?

 

Jono Hey:

I think about this a lot with stereos, like a stereo in a car.

 

So obviously listening to music on your phone is a bit unsatisfying, it's quite tinny.

 

And so it's much better to have a better speaker and it's much better to have a really good speaker.

 

And at some point you're like, this speaker costs twice as much as this other mega speaker.

 

And I can't really hear the difference anymore.

 

And it might be better, but yeah, for the cost and the effort you're putting in, you can't hear the difference so well.

 

So I think it comes up in how people appreciate and perceive products and the benefit you're putting in.

 

So some people that might be exactly worth it.

 

Most people, probably not.

 

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

Tommy, how do you feel about The Law of Diminishing Returns?

 

Is it something you're conscious of as somebody who's in manufacturing and making products and running a business?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

Different facets of it, right?

 

Tom Pellereau:

As you say, as an inventor and someone who runs a small business, I find it's just one big battle against this sort of law of diminishing returns.

 

In my own personal behavior, in my engineer's behavior, in my graphics team, we are trying to bring products to market of the latest professional grade beauty innovations at the best possible prices.

 

And you just constantly have to be drawing that line on that perfectionism.

 

Tomorrow, we launched 10 new products at an event in Central London.

 

And every single one of those was just a constant, you know, okay, how much more time do we research on red lights?

 

And how many more red lights do we need to put on?

 

How much larger should the battery be to kind of have this?

 

Well, are people gonna be bothered between the difference of being able to use this product 10 times or 15 times before having to recharge it?

 

You know, we could have made it that someone could use it and never have to recharge it again, but then it would be much bigger, much more expensive and that people expect to have to recharge things.

 

And as Jono has just said, we had an example today of a label for a new bottle of gel polish remover, which had probably been looked at by 10 people.

 

And one person replied saying, oh, do you think in the instructions we should add, you know, buff the nail first?

 

And I was like, oh gosh, please, not another.

 

But I was like, no, well, hang on.

 

Actually, you're absolutely right.

 

We do need to add those two words.

 

Those are really important.

 

So that was an example where an extra cook had helped improve the broth.

 

Although the graphics lady who then had to change it was like, are you kidding me, Tom?

 

I'm like, I agree.

 

We've been through this a lot, but this change is worth making because it's a really important little detail.

 

And so I did get her to make that change.

 

Rob Bell:

It must be very hard with something that is undefined, like bringing a product to market and inventing and designing that product in the first place.

 

It must be very hard to know when to stop.

 

When is good enough?

 

Because I think some people suffer from this desire for perfectionism the whole time, but at some point, what is perfect?

 

Try and embrace the ethos that not everything that you do has to be perfect.

 

It can be good enough.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And maybe, so I very vividly remember a teacher telling me when I was 11, he was a sort of extra English teacher.

 

He was like, Tom, you're a perfectionist and a dyslexic.

 

You can't be both and you will always be dyslexic.

 

So you're just going to have to try and work out your level of perfectionism.

 

And actually at age 11, that was a really important and really helpful lesson to learn.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, I can imagine.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And as you say, I employ these brilliant engineers and they will carry on researching into something forever.

 

But as a result, I also have to employ some amazing sort of business people to help me kind of, as you say, draw that line of when do we stop going into this and when do we make sure we've got the right brilliant level of product, but something that we can actually launch because we could spend another five years researching this.

 

Rob Bell:

What we're talking about here, is this a little bit 80-20 rule?

 

80% of the success or the positive output from our actions and energies results from 20% of the input, 20% of the time or energy that you put in.

 

Is what's gonna yield 80% of the result.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Definitely, but it's a very good hindsight rule, I find.

 

You don't often, if you knew what the 80-20 was when you were doing it, you wouldn't do the 20.

 

Rob Bell:

If you knew where that threshold was.

 

Tom Pellereau:

You often don't know it until after the fact, which is pretty tricky.

 

I must say, I think Lord Sugar, he's very good in this respect.

 

He is very good at identifying the areas that are really important to look at and where you can simplify things.

 

There was a lovely example that's in his book when he first launched the Sky boxes.

 

So I don't know if you know, the reason Sky was able to launch is basically Amstrad made those first few boxes and the dishes that went on the side of the houses.

 

And there's a lovely story in his book where he's quite rude about techie people.

 

So he was like, these boffins had told me that the shape of this metal had to be this and that and blah, blah, blah.

 

And it was going to cost 80 pounds for this perfect check.

 

And I was like, it's just a dish, right?

 

So I found this bin lid maker in Birmingham who charged me literally a pound for something that these boffins were telling me was, you know, that is high science, but it was going to cost 80 quid.

 

And we put it on and there behold, it worked perfectly.

 

Jono Hey:

Fired all the boffins.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And so he was like, well, so therefore they were at Amstrad were able to bring out, you know, those boxes at like 69 quid.

 

I think they launched that instead of like hundreds of quid.

 

Rob Bell:

But you know, if you look at your graph, Jono, on the sketch, it's all about trying to, I guess, predict and analyse as best you can when you're at that point of optimisation.

 

Jono Hey:

I think it's not just where it might start getting worse.

 

And there are definitely cases where, you know, you keep adding people to a team.

 

Rob Bell:

Yes.

 

Jono Hey:

And it does speed you up, up to a point.

 

And then after that, it probably just gets in the way and...

 

Rob Bell:

Yep.

 

Communication becomes difficult and...

 

Jono Hey:

And you have to manage it and it actually might get worse.

 

But it's also, I think, you're constantly having to try and make a trade-off, like, yeah, like we can make it better, but it will be a bit better.

 

Like, I can fix another bug.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

But instead of fixing that bug, we could live with the odd problem and we'll build something else, which will have more benefit.

 

And you always have to make those trade-offs because you're not getting like, like fixing a bug that stops somebody, like your website turning on, you know, just crashes everything.

 

Of course, that's worth doing.

 

So you get loads of value for fixing that.

 

But fixing something which affects, you know, 2% of people who use this browser once a week, you're like, well, okay, well, maybe we should do that.

 

Maybe we shouldn't.

 

And that's the way, like, you're still getting some benefit by doing it.

 

But so, yeah, there's a point where it gets worse very often, but there's also points where you're like, well, should we, I don't know, maybe?

 

I think that's just, it's always difficult to try and make those trades.

 

Cause there's no, yeah, it's like it's all a bit of a gray area, you know?

 

Rob Bell:

Talked a lot about work so far, kind of work applications to this, but there are loads of different applications where I think it applies in maybe your family life, in your home life, in your kind of social life.

 

I mean, I'm thinking back to when we're all revising for exams at university and I stayed up, I did some all nighter revision sessions cause I left it all too late and obviously didn't know enough at the time.

 

So you're cramming and you're cramming and cramming, which meant that you got into that exam and you're absolutely knackered.

 

Surely it would have been better to have said, right, enough's enough.

 

I'm going to get at least four hours sleep and go in a little bit fresh.

 

Jono Hey:

At least four hours.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's like Robbie Rolls.

 

Rob Bell:

And I think it's the same with sport as well, if you're training for a race or something, you know, if you're cramming in your training in the last two weeks, actually you're probably better off giving your body a really good rest so that you're going into the race fresh.

 

I've definitely struggled with that before as well.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I can relate to both of those.

 

Like the studying for exams, like you can do every single pass paper ever, and it might add one or two marks, but it might take you another two days of studying.

 

So you're like, is that worth it?

 

And I think with health as well, like doing a little bit of exercise is a lot better than doing no exercise and doing moderate exercise on a regular basis.

 

It's really good.

 

But doing tons of exercise every day.

 

Rob Bell:

Nacke your joints.

 

Jono Hey:

Maybe it's good, but certainly not nearly as good as like getting off the sofa in the first place, in terms of your benefit, unless you're training for ultras or something, you don't need to do that much.

 

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

And then there's things like friendships, right?

 

So how many friends, I mean, we talked a little bit about this in the episode on Dunbar's Law at the beginning of the series, but you know, the more and more and more friends you have, how well do you get, how well do you really know any of them or?

 

Jono Hey:

I think about like how often you see people as well.

 

So like, it's obviously not brilliant to see people once every two years.

 

So once a year is better.

 

Once every six months, probably better.

 

Once every three months.

 

But when you get down to like, I don't know, should I see somebody every day, you're probably getting, you're getting diminishing returns.

 

Maybe you could actually be better off if you saw each other a bit less.

 

Rob Bell:

Gosh, tricky, isn't it?

 

It's tricky, all this stuff.

 

Jono Hey:

What's the optimum amount to see people, I don't know.

 

Rob Bell:

Boozing, as the law of diminishing returns.

 

I mean, first, first couple of pints.

 

Oh, lovely.

 

I'm really on the up here.

 

I'm having a great time.

 

Four, I mean, who am I talking about here?

 

Not me anymore.

 

Not me anymore, that's for sure.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Four alcohol-free beverages, maybe, Robert.

 

Rob Bell:

Right, but then when you've really started hitting the, gone from the beers, the wine and the spirits, I mean, then it's all downhill from there, isn't it?

 

Jono Hey:

Just sliding down that chart.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And the tandem that you were talking about earlier, you know, how I was sitting on the back, potentially watching videos.

 

I think we all found that there was a certain maximum speed that you could go to, and it really wasn't any point trying to put any more effort in because the massiveness of it, it didn't go any faster.

 

Rob Bell:

That's how you justify it.

 

You use science to try and bamboozle everybody on the bike.

 

Everybody else is working really hard because they're not peddling.

 

So I was looking into this a little bit, and historically, apparently one of the earliest mentions of the law of diminishing returns was recorded in the mid 1700s.

 

An economist called Jacques Turgeau, and he was articulating what would become the law of diminishing returns in agriculture.

 

And again, most of the early references that I've found were all about agriculture.

 

So, you know, with the same amount of land, you're employing more and more people to come and work on it.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And at a point, it doesn't make any difference.

 

Rob Bell:

Those returns drop, drop off.

 

Jono Hey:

The same about like fertilization, like adding fertilizer, like obviously adding a bit really helps and adding a good amount really, really helps.

 

But then beyond some point it starts to like, actually just wash off and doesn't get taken up by the plants at all, you know, that kind of thing.

 

So I think you get that with fertilization as well.

 

Rob Bell:

What about holidays?

 

So how many holidays do you have a year, roughly?

 

Two, two main holidays?

 

Jono Hey:

Depends on what you call a holiday.

 

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

But what if every day was a holiday?

 

You wouldn't get the benefit anymore, would you?

 

Same with like food and treats, you know, a nice little bit of chocolate every now and then.

 

Oh, that's nice.

 

What if you started having loads of cheesecake?

 

Jono Hey:

I really like cheesecake, but if you had it every day, if I was having it every day, pretty soon.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Jono, I recently came up with one in the shower that I thought you might quite like because it's environmental as well.

 

In the fact that I've started when I have the shower rather than because I used to always get in the shower and put it on full power and you sit there in full power.

 

And I was like, actually, you know, with gas prices, global warming.

 

So I started just having my shower to about half.

 

And I was finding it wasn't, there was a lot less water coming out, but actually I found I could get all the way down to at least half the power and sometimes a bit less and almost not really notice the difference.

 

Rob Bell:

Right, Tommy, this makes perfect sense, right?

 

If you go full power in a shower, I deem myself a bit of a shower expert.

 

If you go full power in a shower, most of it just bounces off you, right?

 

And it just, it hits you at such a force that it bounces off and sprays the walls.

 

And so it's the walls who are getting most of the heat and the energy and the, and the soothing of the hot water.

 

So come in halfway and then it, not, not a dribble, you know, a nice, you can feel there's some force behind it, but it's not going to spray off everywhere.

 

And it's actually going to stick to you and run down.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yes.

 

Rob Bell:

Nice.

 

Tom Pellereau:

That's where you, maybe a little bit of power at the beginning, a little bit at the end is just to, you know, but treat, treat yourself with the full power at some points.

 

Jono Hey:

But yeah, the hair sound, missing out on all these potential improvements.

 

Tom Pellereau:

But the natural instinct is you get in a shower and just flick it to what you think is on the sort of binary off or on.

 

But actually there's that whole spectrum in between.

 

Rob Bell:

I see the spectrum and I like to enjoy variety within the spectrum.

 

Tom Pellereau:

On that note, I'm going to turn the brightness of my screen down a bit as well.

 

Cause does it make that much difference?

 

Does it?

 

Rob Bell:

Of Diminishing Returns.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's almost dazzling.

 

Rob Bell:

It's being blinding.

 

Jono Hey:

I did think about that actually.

 

I was trying to think about when diminishing returns might be a problem.

 

And I was thinking about tidying and when you might have differences in perception as to how tidy is tidy enough.

 

So you might stop and go, well, I could tidy that last bit, but this is fine.

 

And somebody else might go, this is still not fine.

 

And if we tidy that would be much better.

 

And you think it would just be a little bit better.

 

And yeah, that might lead to arguments.

 

Rob Bell:

This is interesting.

 

So it's a difference in interpretation of where that peak point is.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yes.

 

And so when Sarah and I 10 years ago decided to move in together, my first rule is that we must get a cleaner, because I knew that my level of it's clean enough would be very different to her level of what clean is.

 

And so therefore I'd always end up getting in trouble, you know, for the shower, for example, I think I would probably I wasn't going to ask which way that went.

 

Rob Bell:

I thought you were going to leave that ambiguous.

 

Tom Pellereau:

No, it's good to learn each other's levels on these things.

 

I found.

 

Rob Bell:

Can I give you guys another little factet?

 

So apparently Henry Ford of Ford Motor Vehicles ran a lot of productivity experiments to determine how to get the highest value out of his production lines and his employees.

 

And in an interview in 1926, Henry Ford concluded that 40 hours a week was the optimum number of hours for his employees on the production lines, finding that, you know, when people work more than 40 hours, their work put, their output, sorry, per employee, their work put How much work have you done today?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, loads.

 

Rob Bell:

Their output starts to decline.

 

Jono Hey:

I was reminded when you were talking about that sort of study, there was around, there's this chap called Taylor and Taylorism was like the optimisation of production lines down to like time in everybody's individual steps.

 

How long does it take you to move this part from here to here and then you would go round and treat people like cogs in a machine?

 

Yeah, some studies about temperature and productivity in offices.

 

And interestingly, I remember it said basically, like, the lower the temperature in the office, the more the productivity goes up.

 

And I just remember that in the study, they didn't find they didn't find it leveling off.

 

It's just that you kept lowering the temperature in the office and it kept on going up.

 

Obviously, they didn't, you know, start testing it at zero degrees or anything like that.

 

You would imagine it was probably going to level off at some point.

 

Rob Bell:

At some point.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Definitely levels off.

 

Rob Bell:

Do you think it helps us live a happier life if we're conscious of the law of diminishing returns in stuff that we do, and try and figure ways to game it?

 

To kind of know the optimum?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Definitely.

 

I think life is a big experiment to try and find the kind of optimisms of certain different things.

 

The optimisms of when to speak and when not to, for example.

 

Jono Hey:

Being happy with what you've got is a good recipe.

 

There are studies on how money affects happiness, and I think that's like a real case of diminishing returns.

 

Rob Bell:

Oh, yeah.

 

Yeah, that's a good one.

 

That's a good one.

 

Jono Hey:

So, you can imagine if your income is really low, let's say an extra $10,000 a year makes a huge difference in getting your basic necessities of life covered, right?

 

Having a house, a place to live and being able to buy the food and stuff.

 

As you go up, you can imagine that going from, say, 30k to 50k probably also makes a difference, but then it starts to sort of slow down this effect.

 

And it's not to say that, to my understanding, definitely wealthier people are happier, but if you add an extra 10,000 pounds to a low level of income, it makes a big difference when you're happier.

 

If you add an extra 10,000, you're already earning 120, then it doesn't make much of a difference.

 

And so you get diminishing returns there as well, I think, as it levels off.

 

But people might think, oh, well, I need to win the lottery and I need to have this you know, not just this house, but a bigger house, a much bigger house and will it actually make you happier?

 

Probably not.

 

Not very much happier.

 

Rob Bell:

So where where do you think it doesn't hold true?

 

Where do you think there are any aspects of life or areas where this law doesn't kick in diminishing returns?

 

I was thinking along the lines like perfecting a skill if you want to be a really highly skilled musician or woodworker or something.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Olympic athlete.

 

Rob Bell:

Is there enough time in one's life to have truly perfected it?

 

Jono Hey:

Olympic athlete.

 

To be the very, very best at something.

 

Rob Bell:

You have to go all in absolutely everything minutiae details in your training regime and everything that you prepare with.

 

Jono Hey:

I was thinking it's possible to make a business where the raison d'etre or the mission of your business is you're selling a story about being the very best and you can charge disproportionately large amounts.

 

To some degree, I think Apple do that kind of stuff.

 

You can buy a laptop for 600 pounds but if you want to buy an Apple one, they're going to charge you two and a half thousand or something and it's better.

 

How much better?

 

Well, you have that perception that it's really AirPods, I struggle with AirPods, they're a little bit better probably than a lot of other wireless earbuds, but they can charge twice as much for them and I think you perhaps you mark it on the basis that we are that much better and you need this and it makes you want it.

 

So maybe there's something there as well.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Luxury goods like wine and whiskey and those sort of things you feel are very much in that similar field, Jono.

 

Rob Bell:

There is no top limit.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Everything just keeps getting pushed, pushed, pushed potentially and that's sort of what you're selling and that's your MO.

 

Jono Hey:

That's the old Veblen goods again, isn't it?

 

Tom Pellereau:

I do often wonder about parenting and yes, there is diminishing returns in terms of how much time and how much quality of time, but someone did very wisely say to me once, kids actually just want you around as much as possible.

 

They just really love being close to you, being with you at the earlier ages, certainly.

 

And so I do try and do that as much as I possibly can.

 

There must be a diminishing returns, but I think kids would happily have you around more and more and more, certainly at the younger ages.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, I was going to say wait till it turns to teenagers, that's possibly where you see the diminishing return.

 

Jono Hey:

People say the devil is in the detail, but I think like the diamonds are in the details, like actually sometimes the details really matter.

 

And there's a sketch, which I really like, which is this poem, For Want of a Nail.

 

And I don't know if you know it, but I'll read it out because it's just so obvious once you hear it.

 

And so the poem goes, For want of a nail, the shoe was lost.

 

For want of a shoe, the horse was lost.

 

For want of a horse, the rider was lost.

 

For want of a rider, the battle was lost.

 

For want of a battle, the kingdom was lost.

 

And all for want of a nail.

 

And that starts to mess with your head, doesn't it, when you're doing diminishing returns, and then somebody comes up with something right at the end.

 

You know, that could be the nail that fixes the shoe, which helps the horse, which keeps the rider, which wins the battle, which keeps the kingdom.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, so on that example, for the last six weeks, I've been experimenting with different magnet strengths, because the magnet has not been holding on this zoom mirror correctly on a product.

 

And we've literally spent six weeks researching into magnet strengths and configuration of, because we know that if you put something on, you want it to stay, you don't want it slipping, but oh my gosh, but we know we've got to get it right.

 

It's hugely diminishing returns, but it has to be perfect in this example.

 

Jono Hey:

Or is it?

 

Is it like a step?

 

Like it's not good enough and then it's good enough.

 

And you don't have like a gradual thing in that case.

 

Anyway, as I'm wondering about like, yeah, should I do that final edit or something?

 

I also have in the back of my mind for want of a nail.

 

Oh no.

 

Rob Bell:

And it's very hard to know.

 

It's impossible to know without hindsight, which is the right thing to do.

 

Do you go 80-20 law of diminishing or do you go, no, it's actually worth it this time.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

 

For that matter, you've got the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

And you've got tipping points.

 

If you get just that one more follower or one more person to buy it, maybe it will tip it over to start rolling by itself.

 

Chicken and egg things, you know, difficult.

 

Rob Bell:

Good luck, everyone.

 

Tom Pellereau:

So I think there's also a big example in our podcast recording.

 

We tend to sit here talking for between 35 and an hour and 35 sometimes.

 

And then, Rob, you amazingly edited it down to a 30 minutes.

 

And I slightly was wondering, what did he cut out?

 

What did he miss?

 

But I think we could carry on talking for another three days and probably come up with some more examples.

 

But you wouldn't let it be longer than half an hour because our listeners probably don't want to listen to half an hour.

 

They've had enough and just the perfect amount.

 

Rob Bell:

What a great way to round us off, Tommy.

 

Thank you very much.

 

AOB, any other business on the law of diminishing returns?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Oh, I do have one that might make it through the edit, which would be ironic in the fact that so I always get invited to the live filming of the final episode of The Apprentice.

 

And they sort of twig me before saying, you know, and at the end we might come to you and ask for it, ask you a quick question.

 

So I'm there sort of for four hours watching this, thinking that they might ask me a little question at the end, which given I'm not on telly that much anymore kind of is quite a big deal.

 

And possibly I'm trying to get illegally a plug about my brand onto the BBC and I sit there.

 

But I know that if I talk for more than about 10 seconds, they'll just cut it because they don't have more than that much time for me and the thing.

 

But also you want to say a lot.

 

And whenever I speak too long, it gets cut.

 

If I create a nice little quick short segment, it might get through.

 

But that's a lovely example.

 

Rob Bell:

Thank you very much, boys.

 

The Law of Diminishing Returns.

 

And as with so many topics that we chat about on this podcast, it's one of those things in life that's just everywhere, right?

 

You know, it's all around us all the time.

 

Sometimes we're probably conscious of it, and other times less so.

 

But it's definitely a thing.

 

Of course it is.

 

Jono's done a sketch on it.

 

It must be.

 

If you have some examples in your lives where you've discovered that the law of diminishing returns has crept in, then let us know.

 

Email us on hello at sketchplanations.com.

 

We'll be back with this week's post bag very shortly.

 

But for now, Tommy, I am going to close out before the law comes after us with its truncheon and his handcuffs in hand.

 

It weren't us, Gov.

 

You'll never catch us.

 

We're not going down.

 

Go well, stay well.

 

Goodbye.

 

Goodbye.

 

Jono Hey:

See ya.

 

Rob Bell:

Hello.

 

Welcome back.

 

We've got time to go through just a few messages from last week's post bag.

 

As a reminder, last week we were talking about smart little people, the fun design tool as part of TRIZ.

 

So on Twitter we had a message from Captain Karnak saying that colleagues that he works with scoffed when he raised TRIZ over 10 years ago at a robotics company.

 

He says, however, I am a fan.

 

Do you see how it could have been an difficult thing to introduce in companies where you've worked at that kind of company level to bring in a whole new way of thinking and a philosophy?

 

Jono Hey:

I mean, when you put it like that, yeah, yeah, I think there's also that it's I mean, you know, we did a whole course in it and had people who are experts who taught us for years, which was brilliant.

 

But there's a lot of mixed stuff about it.

 

There's a bit of confusion about it.

 

It's also it doesn't have like a, you know, traditional roots for the story of like where it came from.

 

So, you know, it doesn't come out of Oxford and Cambridge and wherever, you know, leading university.

 

And so, yeah, there's definitely some scepticism around using it, but also a lot of sort of misinformation and people who don't really know much about it.

 

And so, yeah, that's natural, I think.

 

Rob Bell:

This one made me laugh, Jono.

 

I hope you don't mind me reading it out.

 

It's a Twitter message from a response on Twitter from Bobby Wildcard about the sketch of Smart Little People, which you should check out if you haven't seen it yet.

 

It says, sorry, but I don't get how the smart little people in the sketch are stopping a leak.

 

In fact, I don't even get how it's a leak.

 

It looks like they're forming a human bridge over some stakes.

 

Jono Hey:

I mean, yeah, it's got a point, you know, did that one quite quick.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, sorry about that.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Do you have a rule where you won't redo a sketch?

 

Because you must look at some of your early sketches and go, oh, I could do...

 

Rob Bell:

Not because someone's commented on Twitter.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Well, because you must feel tempted to.

 

Jono Hey:

And in fact, for the book, I went back and we picked quite a few older ones and I did redo them, partly for consistency, but partly also to make them better.

 

And partly because if you're going to do a book with something, you might as well not just throw in something you did in, you know, 20 minutes.

 

You should do it properly.

 

So I have I have redone some older ones, but it's a big project if I was to go back and redraw the whole lot.

 

I'm not signing up for that in a hurry.

 

Rob Bell:

And then going back a couple of weeks, we had a number of messages come in on the On The Road compilation episode, which I really enjoyed doing that one, guys.

 

I really enjoyed recording it.

 

I really enjoyed editing.

 

It was a lot of fun.

 

But a friend of the podcast, Andre Brown, messaged on LinkedIn, saying about the windscreen phenomena from that On The Road episode.

 

And he suggests that lower drag cars equals more laminar flow equals less bug splatter.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Does it make any difference, though, to the number plate?

 

Rob Bell:

Well, yes, that would be a good example.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And some of the studies were just measuring purely the number plate, I think, weren't they?

 

Which just stayed largely the same size.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, and I think there was another study that I mentioned as well that talks about the fact that older cars were boxier.

 

It was proved that that didn't have the effect you think it might, that Andre is suggesting.

 

But one study does not a theory make.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I don't know.

 

Causation.

 

Rob Bell:

Get Tommy's face.

 

And on that bombshell, I'm going to round off by reminding everybody, all our listeners, that Jono has a book coming out.

 

It's coming out in the US, Jono, in April, is that right?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, early April.

 

Rob Bell:

And in the UK?

 

Jono Hey:

In mid-May.

 

Rob Bell:

And anywhere else in the world, we will wait to hear.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, hopefully I will have news on that very soon.

 

Rob Bell:

But look out for it.

 

Big ideas, little pictures.

 

Coming out soon.

 

Guys, thanks very much.

 

Thank you again, listeners, for all of your comments and feedback and stories.

 

Keep them coming in.

 

Hello at sketchplanations.com on the email.

 

Or you can leave us comments or DMs on social media.

 

Thanks very much.

 

We'll be back next week.

 

Jono Hey:

Bye for now.

 

Rob Bell:

All music on this podcast series is sourced from the very talented Franc Cinelli.

 

And you can find loads more tracks at franccinelli.com.