The Fun Scale

Jono Hey:

I try to draw things that make sense to me, right?

 

So whenever you see stuff in sketches, it's things that I'm thinking about.

 

Rob Bell:

It is sometimes fun to just over analyze stuff for the sake of it, and that is what we're going to be doing on this podcast series.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I would say that the two of you, I think, are type two junkies.

 

Jono Hey:

Fun is fun is fun, you know?

 

That's just one word for it, but actually there are different types of fun.

 

Tom Pellereau:

You thought you were going to die, basically, every episode.

 

If you got sent home, that was it.

 

But it did make a good story, and it did completely change my life.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I hated it, but it was great.

 

And actually, you know what?

 

I'll be there next week.

 

Rob Bell:

Skiing down a mountain is fun, right?

 

But climbing up, that's hard.

 

That's not fun.

 

Or is it?

 

Well, how about that story you always tell that has everyone on the edge of their seats, the one when you were scared out of your wits?

 

Was that fun?

 

We think we just might have the answer.

 

Hello, and welcome to Sketchplanations, The Podcast.

 

Now, depending on how it is you've come about to be listening to this right now, that title, Sketchplanations, The Podcast, may or may not make that much sense to you.

 

So let me just break it down quickly.

 

Firstly, you know what a podcast is, right?

 

Well, this is one of those.

 

And we're going to be talking about a thing called Sketchplanations.

 

And Sketchplanations is a collection of sketches and illustrations you can find online where each sketch attempts to explain something from the world around us.

 

Hence Sketch, explanations, Sketchplanations.

 

And that could be an explanation of a philosophy or a phenomena or some advice or a theory or some physical entity or system of some kind or even just ideas and musings.

 

There's all sorts in there.

 

All that.

 

Suffice to say really that if you don't know what Sketchplanations is, then you're probably best off having a little look online.

 

And you can have a mooch through all of the sketches at sketchplanations.com or just search for Sketchplanations on Instagram or Twitter.

 

You'll find it.

 

Alternatively, the links to all those are in the description for this podcast.

 

Now, a minute ago, I said that in this podcast, we're gonna be talking about this thing called Sketchplanations.

 

Who's we?

 

Well, I'm Rob Bell, an engineer and TV presenter, and I'm joined by two of my very close friends who have known for a long old time now since studying engineering with them both at university.

 

That's Jono Hey, creator of and brains behind Sketchplanations, and Tom Pellereau, aka inventor Tom, aka torpedo Tommy, aka the apprentice winner from the telly in 2011.

 

Gents, hello, how are we doing?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Good, thank you.

 

Jono Hey:

Very good, thank you.

 

Rob Bell:

What's been going on?

 

Tommy, been up to much since winning the apprentice 12 years ago?

 

Tom Pellereau:

I'm well, thank you.

 

I'm still working with Lord Sugar.

 

I am still running an apprentice business, and I'm very excited to be talking to the two of you tonight and hopefully for many more.

 

Rob Bell:

Who knows where this may lead?

 

I had a little look online when I just reminded myself of who you are.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Oh, that's dangerous.

 

Rob Bell:

I mean, I know who you are.

 

You're my mate.

 

But I was reminded of the fact that you, of all the apprentice winners, you've had the worst run of form ever.

 

And I think that record still sticks today.

 

You lost eight tasks and won three, but still came out on top.

 

Tom Pellereau:

To lose eight?

 

I thought I'd only lost seven.

 

Eight?

 

Yeah, no, I don't.

 

I can't believe-

 

Rob Bell:

According to the Radio Times.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Could any ever beat that record and still survive to the end?

 

Rob Bell:

You did it.

 

Anyway, good to have you on board, Tommy.

 

Jono, hello, mate.

 

Jono Hey:

Hello.

 

Rob Bell:

You're all right?

 

Keeping busy?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, very good, thank you.

 

Aside from Sketchplanations, I spend my time busy running product development and since starting Sketchplanations at various startups.

 

And so that's most of my time, but the rest of it, try and funnel all my knowledge and everything I learn into Sketchplanations, which we're going to talk about.

 

Rob Bell:

And now we've started a podcast, boys.

 

I mean, that's exciting, isn't it?

 

Jono Hey:

It's slightly funny because the point of Sketchplanations originally was all about the visuals, but actually somebody sent me some feedback really early on.

 

He said, it's all about the content.

 

It's about the ideas.

 

And so actually it makes a ton of sense.

 

Let's talk about these ideas.

 

Rob Bell:

How many do you reckon you've done?

 

Jono Hey:

809?

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, 809 listeners.

 

That's how many potentially you might have to put up with.

 

And that number is always growing.

 

Every week.

 

Jono puts one out one a week.

 

Tom Pellereau:

We're never going to catch up.

 

Do you think we should be doing two or three a week to try and catch up?

 

Rob Bell:

Cause I tried to sum up as best as I could what Sketchplanations is in my intro there.

 

I mean, essentially go and look it up, right?

 

And once you see it, you'll get what it is.

 

That's the essence of it.

 

I mean, how would you try and describe in a nutshell what Sketchplanations is, Jono, and then Tommy?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I mean, from my point of view, I've always been trying to, I put it down, like explain the world in a sketch, but sooner or later-

 

Rob Bell:

Yes, good strap line.

 

Jono Hey:

Sooner or later, the way that I think about it is everything that I know will be out there on Sketchplanations.

 

Rob Bell:

Oh, that's good.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, so gradually I'm taking little pieces of my brain, everything that I've learned through the years, and I'm still learning, and people are telling me about like, oh, here's this cool thing you should know about.

 

And I think, oh, that would make a cool sketch.

 

People need to know about this.

 

And so gradually it's getting on there.

 

And I read a lot of books, but it takes a lot of effort to read a lot of books.

 

And so sometimes it's just nice to have everything sort of, you know, summarize neatly in a sketch, which you remember and take away and can get the hang of and get the ideas straight up front with no effort.

 

So that's what I try to do with it.

 

Rob Bell:

Have you tried to explain to people what Sketchplanations is Tommy?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yes, I tried to explain to someone today and I didn't do a very good job.

 

But ultimately Jono has this amazing talent of taking potentially a very, very complicated subject, occasionally relatively simple and just turning it into a like, oh, I get it, oh, that's so obvious.

 

And then having seen them develop over the last, is it 10 years, five years, 10 years, Jono?

 

Jono Hey:

10 years now.

 

Rob Bell:

Is it 10 years?

 

Tom Pellereau:

10 years.

 

Like they've just improved so much in terms of the quality and the ambition on them as well.

 

And also every time I see them, I think that probably took hours.

 

And my gosh, his wife Maria is just a saint.

 

Rob Bell:

And so in this podcast series, we're going to select a different sketch from the archive each episode, that extensive archive, and we're going to explore it a little deeper.

 

All right, I mean, it kind of struck me that it does feel like we're massacring all the very hard work that you've done, Jono, in painstakingly distilling something down to a simple sketch.

 

And here we are exploding it all back out again.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, but I think it's about the medium, right?

 

And it's about the format and how you can get the message across, how you can absorb these ideas.

 

So podcasts are a brilliant way to introduce ideas.

 

I mean, I listen to podcasts all the time, and sometimes they're just the right way to learn something small, short and sweet, which can affect your life, and you can start to apply it.

 

And sometimes a sketch is the way to do it.

 

So I think it's brilliant.

 

I'm really happy to be talking about it.

 

Rob Bell:

It's true, and I have been affected by so many of them, which is why I was so keen to start this podcast.

 

And Jono, it's brilliant that you're here because you create these things.

 

And Tommy, I mean, you're a curious man.

 

And I mean that you're interested in the world around you, as well as the obvious sense, the other sense.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I'm curious.

 

Rob Bell:

But I know that you also love to look at the world around you as well and try and analyse it and just take bits out and try and, I guess, kind of package things nicely.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, I love making things, making solutions, making products, making fun, making a difference.

 

There's a lot of, I think potentially, actually, I'd be really interested to know what our favourite podcasts are.

 

Rob Bell:

Can I just roll back a sec?

 

What was that little, was that a prepared strap line you had, Tommy?

 

It was amazing.

 

I love making things.

 

What was it?

 

What did you finish with?

 

I like-

 

Tom Pellereau:

You've got me now.

 

We can record it and play it back.

 

I love making things.

 

Rob Bell:

Making products.

 

Jono Hey:

Making things, making products.

 

Making a difference.

 

Rob Bell:

And making a difference.

 

Have you rehearsed that before?

 

Because that was pretty good.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I'm doing a little bit of work at the moment about what is my core values and stuff and thinking about these things.

 

And I realized that actually, it started with my core values as just having fun.

 

And I was like, yes, I do love having fun, but actually I'm more probably about making things.

 

I do love to try and make a difference.

 

I think, I doubt anyone will listen to what I'm saying on these Sketchplanations and learn anything, but I can hope that that might make a difference to them.

 

Rob Bell:

You never know.

 

You never know.

 

I mean, it is sometimes fun to just overanalyze stuff for the sake of it.

 

And that is pretty much exactly what we're gonna be doing on this podcast series.

 

So I'm gonna suggest we crack on and get on with the episode one.

 

Peace.

 

Let's do it.

 

<v SPEAKER_6>Peace.

 

This episode, we're going to be looking at the concept of something called the Fun Scale, and that, as described in the Sketchplanation, not all outdoor fun is created equal.

 

Now, if you've not already had a look at it, the artwork or the picture for this episode on your screen, on your device, should be the Fun Scale, the Sketchplanation of the Fun Scale.

 

Alternatively, you can find it online or on social media through the links in the description for the episode.

 

Right, the Fun Scale.

 

Jono, you did it.

 

What's all this about?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I did it.

 

The Fun Scale is good.

 

I really like it.

 

As soon as I learned about it, which I learned about from my brother who had just been hiking up a volcano, and he learned about it from his guide on the volcano.

 

And it really makes sense in this context when you hear about it.

 

So the Fun Scale, I always thought the fun is fun is fun, you know, that's it's just one word for it.

 

But actually, there are different types of fun, and I think it does make a lot of sense.

 

So essentially, the three types is what it says in the Fun Scale.

 

So Type 1 fun are things that are both fun to do when you're doing them, and also fun to remember when you look back on them.

 

Rob Bell:

Lovely.

 

Type 1.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

 

So that might be things like eating ice cream or going skiing, having a lovely day out in the sunshine.

 

And then you've got Type 2 fun.

 

And Type 2 fun is a little bit different where actually, instead of it being fun to do, actually, it might hurt a bit to do.

 

But it is fun in retrospect when you think back to it.

 

It's fun to remember.

 

So a classic thing that might be Type 2 fun would be running a marathon, or maybe climbing a mountain.

 

So not taking the ski lift up, but climbing the mountain up.

 

So Type 2 fun hurts a bit to do, but it's very fun in retrospect.

 

And then you have Type 3 fun, which is the opposite of both of those.

 

So it's actually not that fun in the moment.

 

And it's not that fun when you think back to it and you run it back through in your memory bank.

 

But, and this is the thing about Type 3 fun, it does make a great story.

 

So that's essentially the fun scale.

 

So you got Type 1 things that are fun to do when you're doing them and when they're fun to remember, all the way to Type 3, which are not fun when you're doing them and actually not fun when you remember them.

 

But they do make a great story.

 

Rob Bell:

Tommy, do you agree?

 

Is this a phenomena that you've experienced?

 

You think you'd be able to categorise your fun into those three?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yes, and a huge amount of my 1, 2, 3 I've had with the two of you.

 

And of course, Jono, you mentioned your brother, but was there someone in particular you were thinking about when you were...

 

Do you think about people when you're doing these sketches?

 

Jono Hey:

I mean, as much as possible, I try to draw things that make sense to me, right?

 

So there's definitely a bit of...

 

Whenever you see stuff in sketches, it's things that I'm thinking about.

 

And I think back to my experiences as to whether it makes sense.

 

But yeah, like you say, I've shared a fair few of these kinds of experiences with both of you chaps, in fact.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, okay, let's look at that.

 

Type 1.

 

Type 1 experiences that you've had, boys.

 

Go on.

 

Tom Pellereau:

So much of skiing is this Type 1.

 

Water skiing, I had an amazing half term last November, water skiing in Greece.

 

And it was just, you know, when you're mono skiing and you're right out.

 

And I had that bit at the end where there's the pontoon you've got to get back to.

 

And I managed to go really, really wide and hold and hold and hold and hold and then let go.

 

And then all and then basically got to the pontoon.

 

And the people on the pontoon are like, ah, I'm going to get away with my bow wave.

 

Um, that, yeah, stunning type ones.

 

Rob Bell:

You're so middle class, aren't you, Tommy?

 

I mean, we all are, let's face it.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I mean, we love that.

 

It's just what the world needs.

 

Three more middle class men.

 

Rob Bell:

No, no, but I was thinking about this as well.

 

I was thinking about like water skiing, weightboarding as well.

 

Weightboarding, I've got slightly, you know, cooler, younger edge on it.

 

Um, and it is, but it is fun, right?

 

Until you wipe out and water at speed is like concrete.

 

And I was thinking about, I was thinking about a lot.

 

Well, one of the times when I, I took a hard old hit on the weightboard, I mean, it's, it's like being punched in the face.

 

I was dizzy and had a headache for days.

 

I mean, it almost went into type three for me.

 

Jono Hey:

Type one, type one, type one, bam, type three.

 

Rob Bell:

It was amazing at the time, but, oh, I mean, bang, in an instant, it's all changed.

 

Jono Hey:

Yes, could definitely see that.

 

My type one would probably be, um, funnily enough, playing the piano.

 

And then I know something like snorkeling where snorkeling is just, it's just glorious to think about it and to do it, you know, uh, isn't it?

 

It's just nice.

 

Rob Bell:

Oh, that's good.

 

Cause I, cause I like, I like the addition of a bit of hardship in there to distinguish between one and two quite clearly.

 

And for me, I was thinking about exercising, you know, so cycling, running, swimming, hiking, all that kind of stuff.

 

When it's just casual and I'm out with someone, we're having a chat, you know, that's, that's very much type one.

 

That's lovely.

 

As soon as it's a race or I'm training hard for something, that can be, that then steps into type two where, you know, it actually hurts, but it feels quite good after.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I would say that the two of you, I think are type two junkies.

 

Cause a lot of like the marathons you run, the run, the swim runs.

 

How far are those swim runs you've been recently doing?

 

Type two junkies, I think both of you.

 

Jono Hey:

I do think, and I put it in the sketch, that I think type two is the most fulfilling in the long run.

 

The ones where you, you know, it's the ones where you build a bit of character along the way.

 

Yeah, in some ways, yeah, junkie is not how I'd describe it, but I do keep signing up for them, so maybe that means I am.

 

Tom Pellereau:

You do, you're addicted to it.

 

So I've got an indifferent view on type two about watching England play any sport.

 

Rob Bell:

Oh, this is good.

 

Yeah, go on, go on to me.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Like World Cup crickets, especially that 50 over World Cup cricket, where we should never have won and you're just dying because you're like, I don't want to, I have a lot with watching England play cricket and the fact that whenever I actually watch them live, we do seem to do worse.

 

My dad has the same view.

 

So you're like, I really want to watch it, but I know that if I turn it off, we'll probably get some wickets.

 

And it's just hard, but you really, really want to watch it.

 

It's really important game.

 

So that 50 over final when Stokes got all those runs and it hit the back of his bat, can you imagine being there for that?

 

It just must have been so horrible, but obviously amazing.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, so tough at the time.

 

Jono Hey:

I did think about watching watching sport as potentially type two fun.

 

Having been a been a football fan all my life through through ups and downs and a lot of downs.

 

And you're like, there's a lot of pain in watching sports.

 

So you voluntarily you voluntarily put yourself through.

 

And yet at the end of it, maybe maybe it is one of those sort of things that builds you up in the long run.

 

I'm not sure.

 

Rob Bell:

I mean, I was thinking about I like building stuff, you know, making stuff, making a difference, you know, and but sometimes it is a physical effort and you're like, oh, you're cursing it.

 

You're absolutely cursing it.

 

But then when you can stand back and go, oh, yeah, no, that was quite good.

 

Actually, I did.

 

I did quite enjoy that challenge.

 

But one of the big differences for me was often whether I was doing something on my own or doing it with somebody else.

 

If I'm going for a run with somebody else, that's much more type one fun for me than it would be type two.

 

I don't get much type one fun from going for a run on my own ever, really.

 

Tom Pellereau:

OK, so normally when you're running in your own, you're pushing yourself much harder.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, it's just not very fun.

 

I don't really enjoy it.

 

Jono Hey:

I just think like almost all outdoor stuff I do with people.

 

I just very rarely do it by myself.

 

But I have I have definitely done a lot of things which I'd class as type two fun, where if you had the energy to keep talking, it would be like that type one fun where you go for a jog.

 

But you've run out of that energy.

 

You've run out of that.

 

Those reserves of patience and endurance that you're just you're just grinding it out after a while and all the chat stops, you know, and you're just one step after the other.

 

So, yeah, I can definitely I can definitely relate to the type one fun.

 

If you go for a run with somebody lovely and you're chatting all the way.

 

But, you know, you do that for 20 miles and then it's suddenly a different type of thing, isn't it?

 

Rob Bell:

Let's do that next time we go for a longer run.

 

We'll just label each bit.

 

I think we've gone into type two here now, mate.

 

Yeah, I think you're right.

 

And then towards the end.

 

Hey, op, type one's back.

 

Jono Hey:

I thought you were going to say type three.

 

I call in the ambulance.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, so we've done a lot of ones and twos here.

 

But yeah, type three, the sources of good stories.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, things that are not fun to do when you're there and not fun even when you think back on them, really.

 

Rob Bell:

And come on, we've all got type three stories.

 

Mine were mostly mountain related, actually.

 

Jono Hey:

Mountains are a big source of that kind of thing, yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, they're big, dangerous places.

 

Jono Hey:

You get into sticky situations.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Or rivers that go through mountains.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, that's what I was thinking.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Like the Yukon River.

 

Rob Bell:

That was probably my main type three.

 

Stuck in the Yukon for a few days because the vehicle I was traveling in broke down.

 

It was going to take a week to fix it.

 

Got bored.

 

I was with some friends.

 

So we hired a canoe, no kayak, and went paddling down the Yukon River that two weeks prior had been like thick ice that trucks were driving across.

 

And because we were bored and we've been going for ages, we decided to take on some rapids, which none of us were qualified or prepared or experienced with.

 

And we went down and we lost our we lost our vessel.

 

We lost the kayak.

 

It's up in Russia probably now.

 

And we were dumped out into freezing cold water through rapids and then had an 11 hour hike back home through the wilderness where you didn't see or hear anybody.

 

I didn't even see signs of civilization, just massive like wild cat prints in in the mud and in the sand.

 

But we made it back and it made for a great story.

 

But yeah, it was tough at the time, although, you know, it was I don't know.

 

How can you think you can't remember now?

 

It was so long ago, but it was quite fun.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It was Alaska, wasn't it?

 

Rob Bell:

It was up in the Yukon.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Because I was supposed I was sort of supposed to be with you because I joined you about two weeks later, didn't I?

 

And I remember hearing about it going, if I'd been there, I would have died.

 

I don't think I would have been able to get out that water or survive that cold.

 

I was like, thank God I wasn't actually there on that particular story because that that was hardcore.

 

You guys were in the fully full on in the paper and everything, weren't you?

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, well, you know, it made a good story.

 

Jono Hey:

I mean, I put, I mean, that is an excellent one.

 

In this sketch, I put a picture of a bear with some backpackers because that is one of the things that comes to mind there.

 

And I think that is the sort of one of the elements of Type 3 where you're like, there has to be this moment where you don't quite know how it's going to work out or if you're actually in real trouble, you know, that kind of thing.

 

I remember a campsite in California where we went to.

 

And it was, it turns out, the campground we went to was known as Bear Central, which I didn't realize when we booked it.

 

And so as you're sort of, you know, as we were having dinner and brushing our teeth, you just hear like all these pots and pans banging from around the campground.

 

You know, that's a bit funny what they're doing.

 

And then you realize that they're doing it because the bears just walked up to their camp.

 

And then all the pots and pans, the banging starts getting nearer and nearer.

 

At one point, I mean, we were brushing our teeth and like three or four bears walking up.

 

And we did exactly what you're not supposed to do, which is we got in the car, shut the door.

 

Then we locked it, which obviously makes no sense at all.

 

You're supposed to do what the ranger told us, treat them like your neighbor's dog.

 

You know, give them a shout, look big, send them away.

 

But I just remember going, I think we should get in the car right now.

 

I think we should get in the car.

 

Tom Pellereau:

There you go.

 

Jono Hey:

That's it.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Why do you not get in a car if there's a bear?

 

Jono Hey:

I mean, I think it's all about the behavior, like training the bears, like you're supposed to make it, treat them like your neighbor's dog.

 

They shouldn't be there.

 

Send them away.

 

I remember a similar thing in South Africa with baboons, which on the whole, like at first glance seem like pretty cool creatures.

 

But when there's a baboon, which is bigger than you, much more agile and faster than you coming up to your camp and trying to take your stuff, you might decide to get in the car as well.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, you can have my pot noodle, mate.

 

Jono Hey:

And the windscreen wiper, whatever you like.

 

Just leave us, not the face, not the face.

 

Rob Bell:

Jono, you are an incredibly talented man, as Tommy said, and your sketches, I'm sure will come on to these many more.

 

Well, I love the way you've drawn the two guys, the two hikers, in the Type 3 fun sketch with the bear.

 

You can tell they're both going, They don't even have faces.

 

But just to the way that you've drawn them, and the stance that they've got, you can tell that it's not a good time for them.

 

It's very good, it's very subtle.

 

Jono Hey:

It looks like a story in the making, yeah, that's the idea.

 

I was probably thinking back to that time, where they'd really like to get in a car right now.

 

I remember a time when, again, we were walking in the Northwest, Pacific Northwest in the US, in Olympic National Park, and we were walking down this trail, and it was in the afternoon, starting to get dark, and we met a hiker, and they said, oh, there's a mountain line on the trail up ahead, a few miles up.

 

I'm like, oh, that's awesome.

 

Never seen a mountain line.

 

I'd love to see a mountain line.

 

And then as we walked on, I realized we didn't see anybody else walking outwards anymore.

 

There's a mountain line up ahead.

 

Maybe we don't want to see a mountain line.

 

And maybe that was a type three fun as well.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I really want to see a mountain line.

 

What would happen if I did see a mountain line?

 

Jono Hey:

I'm actually really scared now about seeing a mountain line.

 

Rob Bell:

Tommy, type three fun, stories, experiences.

 

Tom Pellereau:

The Apprentice, every single episode of that horrific experience, the boardrooms especially, oh, the boardrooms were so bad.

 

They were so difficult.

 

They were so serious.

 

So like you thought you were going to die basically every episode.

 

If you got sent home, that was it.

 

That was your life.

 

That was your career.

 

That was everything gone.

 

And so you're just on absolute edge.

 

And the people you're around, you don't have any friends in that room.

 

You got no one you can banter with.

 

It's just really sad.

 

And you're in a suit the whole time.

 

So you're really kind of done up.

 

You know the story how they filmed two endings, don't you?

 

So I first was told that Helen had won.

 

And so you're there and then your whole world collapses.

 

And then he just looks at me and starts laughing and says, oh, your face is a picture.

 

And then says, oh, we've got to re-film it.

 

Cheers, mate.

 

This is like my whole life.

 

But it did make a good story.

 

And it did completely change my life for the better.

 

But even now, hearing the music of it is horrific.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, fair play, mate.

 

That was quite a long lasting type three inverted commas fun experience.

 

Tom Pellereau:

That was weeks.

 

Eight weeks, seven, eight weeks.

 

That was brutal.

 

There were little bits of fun in there amongst it.

 

There were little bits of satisfaction in it.

 

Rob Bell:

But that's type three Scar for Life.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, I really struggle to watch them still.

 

I know it's on at the moment, but I really struggle to watch it because it's just 10, 12 years on.

 

Still very tricky.

 

Rob Bell:

I think we can all relate, it sounds like, to the type one, two and three scale of fun.

 

Do you think most people would probably be able to relate to that?

 

Yeah, definitely.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I immediately wonder if there's a type four.

 

I'm trying to work out what the type four is.

 

Is that death or something?

 

There's no story.

 

You don't enjoy it.

 

It's not a good story.

 

Jono Hey:

Where's Tom?

 

Rob Bell:

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of what you were saying earlier, Tommy, about spectating sport.

 

So it is an experience for you, but it's almost a second hand experience of what's happening.

 

So it's not something you're necessarily doing.

 

And I thought about what about other people's type three stories, but you're witnessing them.

 

I'm thinking about Nolsey falling down the crevasse and disappearing again off of a mountain.

 

Not fun at all for him.

 

Quite funny.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I'm also thinking of Nolsey doing a full on back flip and landing on his head, basically.

 

You were also there.

 

You, I think, found it incredibly amusing, if I'm not mistaken.

 

Rob Bell:

If you'd been there.

 

It was funny to watch, but the consequences of it weren't funny.

 

But then he was all right.

 

And so then it is quite funny.

 

I wonder how he would describe that.

 

No, it's definitely a type three for him.

 

There's nothing fun about it at all, but it's a great story.

 

But I was watching it, so what was that like for me?

 

Is that maybe a type four?

 

Tom Pellereau:

I think the incredible thing about the human condition is our ability to kind of think we are that person doing that thing.

 

So I think when we're watching sport, we think we are the striker, we think we are the batsman, the bowler.

 

Like we as humans just have this incredible ability to imagine we are that.

 

Jono Hey:

When I think of the three types and how it's gone when I've related it to people, when people have come across it, I think normally when you think of fun, you just think of the type one.

 

And I think the real twist in it, and the most interesting one, is the type two where you're like, you know what, I get a lot out of type two fun, even though I don't think it's fun.

 

And it's massive, right?

 

You think of all the obstacle courses, the tough mudders and stuff like that, where people are working really hard, and like, this is terrible.

 

And then they come back, and you look at their faces at the end, and it's like, so happy.

 

And they're full of joy, and it's amazing.

 

And you come back, and you're like, what an experience that was.

 

And to say that that is fun, even if you were to ask them at the time, when they're covered in mud, and they're cold, and whatever, and tired, they would say, no, it's not fun.

 

But actually, maybe it was kind of fun.

 

I think Coldwater Swimming is another one, which is kind of crazy.

 

It's one of these ones to look at.

 

It's sort of baffling.

 

Why would you do that?

 

Rob Bell:

Marathons, even park run for a lot of people as well.

 

So many people are doing all these things, but there's enough in it to go, yeah, that was great.

 

I hated it, but it was great.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I hated it, but it was great.

 

And actually, you know what?

 

I'll be there next week.

 

And so I think that's really the thing where you're like, totally fun, that is, yeah, it is kind of interesting.

 

I don't know if you've ever read any Calvin and Hobbes, but the one that always comes to mind to me is Calvin and Hobbes' dad.

 

And it's such an interesting contrast in Calvin and Hobbes, it's such a great cartoon with Calvin and his six-year-old and his dad.

 

He's like, ah, up at 6am, 10-mile bike in the freezing snow and then a bowl of plain oatmeal.

 

What a day.

 

And Calvin as a six-year-old can't understand it at all.

 

And he's like, Calvin, go do something you hate.

 

Being miserable builds character.

 

Tom Pellereau:

You know what?

 

Jono Hey:

There's something in that.

 

And I think there's something in that in the Type 2 fun.

 

So that always comes to mind when I think of the fun scales.

 

Calvin's dad.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Do you think as we age, we go through like all kids do is Type 1 and they don't really get Type 2?

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, that's a good point.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head earlier, Tommy.

 

I think I probably am a bit of a Type 2 pervert.

 

I love it.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I prefer that junkie.

 

Rob Bell:

Junkie.

 

Sorry.

 

Yeah, I love it.

 

I thrive off it.

 

I don't know why, but I do.

 

Tom Pellereau:

You really love it.

 

Rob Bell:

And I think you're right.

 

Jono Hey:

You mean that maybe it takes a bit.

 

It's a bit like a midlife crisis.

 

You suddenly start embracing the Type 2.

 

Rob Bell:

But keep in hold of those Type 3s as well.

 

You know, any type, anything that kind of reaches the heights of Type 3, it's lodged in there forever, and you will tell that story over and over again, and it probably gets better and better every time you tell it.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And you feel like you enjoy it more the more you tell it, I think.

 

I think we convinced ourselves that actually we really enjoyed it.

 

We really didn't enjoy it, but we've really enjoyed it.

 

Rob Bell:

I think probably to conclude, I reckon the fun scale is definitely a thing.

 

And I think we're pretty confident that most people can relate to it in some shape or form.

 

Please feel free to leave comments about your experiences of the fun scale, on the social media posts, on Instagram or Twitter for this particular Sketchplanation.

 

And again, the links to this sketch are in the Podcast episode description down below.

 

And we'll all very much enjoy reading those later on.

 

Otherwise, I think we'll leave it there for now.

 

I think that's it.

 

The Fun Scale, done.

 

Nice one.

 

Thank you, Chaps.

 

Well, thank you all very much for listening.

 

If you've got right through to the end, well done.

 

We know you have a choice of podcast, and we're delighted you've chosen to put your ears into ours.

 

Obviously, please feel free to like and subscribe to the rest of the series.

 

Otherwise, we'll be back next week with another topic, another one of Jono's fantastic Sketchplanations to do chat all over.

 

Until then, goodbye, stay well, cheers.

 

All music on this podcast is sourced from the very talented Franc Cinelli.

 

And you can find loads more tracks at franccinelli.com.