The Accountability Ladder

Jono Hey:

I remember myself as a kid, grumping and grouching about going for a walk, I'm gonna stay in the car, I don't wanna go, I didn't wanna come here anyway.

 

You're all about the victim mindset.

 

But to be fair, to be fair to kids, you don't have the level of power, right, that you do as an adult.

 

Rob Bell:

That is a good point.

 

You were having all these things enforced upon you, so you have no control.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I hate sorting out laundry, but then I turn into like a 12 year old kid and I've got to put my laundry away.

 

It takes so long.

 

Rob Bell:

So you've recognized something, but you still haven't done anything about it.

 

You're still just moaning.

 

Jono Hey:

But then you very quickly realize, like the only person you're ruining the experience of right now is yourself.

 

So you grow up, sort it out.

 

Rob Bell:

I'm sure we can all think of times when we've brushed responsibility onto others or appointed blame for stuff we're not happy with in our own lives.

 

The question is, where do you sit on the accountability ladder?

 

And what's the view like from the top?

 

Hello and welcome to Sketchplanations, The Podcast.

 

Have you ever been reading a book or watching a film or TV series and thought to yourself, this is so good.

 

I really don't want it to end.

 

Well, I can't promise anything and it does depend on a myriad of factors.

 

But wouldn't it be great if that's the way we can make you feel in the next half hour or so?

 

What I can promise is that all three of us have signed up to the Sketchplanations, The Podcast mandate in which we are now formally committed to do our utmost to provide, and I quote, enjoyment of the sketches for the people.

 

You can find a whole host of sketches as part of the Sketchplanations collection at sketchplanations.com.

 

Equally, there are tons shared up on Instagram and Twitter.

 

I'm Rob Bell, and sharing in the burden of providing the enjoyment of the sketches are my two co-hosts, the creator of Sketchplanations, Jono Hey, and the creator of chaos, Tom Pellereau.

 

Evening, gents, how are we doing?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Good, thank you.

 

Jono Hey:

Very good, my pleasure to be here again with you, chaps.

 

Rob Bell:

Jono, I was reminded in the week by somebody leaving a comment on some stuff I had recently uploaded to YouTube that any references I make in content that I share online aren't necessarily fully understood or appreciated by everybody who receives or indulges in that content, which could be almost anyone, anywhere, right?

 

Now, my reference points are based on my upbringing and my influences, my interests, my friends, but when stuff goes online, it obviously has a potential to be global.

 

And so those personal references might not necessarily scan as well as I'd originally intended.

 

Is that something that you're aware of when you're doing your sketches because you are making a very, trying to make a very clear point and communicate very concisely?

 

Because I imagine you're well aware that your Sketchplanations are consumed all over the world.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, it's an interesting question because it started off just as a personal project, right?

 

So it was literally just for me and it didn't matter and it could be like as unique and individual as I am.

 

But now that's not the case.

 

I mean, even a dumb example, right?

 

Like obviously I'm from England, I live in London and the spellings are different in the US and if somebody wants to find one of the sketches, they might want to use the American spelling.

 

And actually I've got more people who follow from the US than I do in England.

 

So does that mean I should start doing things in American spelling?

 

And what happens if I do football references?

 

Should I start calling it soccer or does it need to be sort of a more generic sporting reference or something like that?

 

And so I do consider it, but I think ideally, I mean, I don't want to be a newspaper, right?

 

Like you want to be bland it down and be so generic that you're just, you know, might as well just be an encyclopedia churning this stuff out.

 

That sort of lose all the interest.

 

And I think one of the things I haven't, I think, compromised about Sketchplanations is you get, it's what I found interesting.

 

And it might be this, you know, the random thing that's coming up next is the random thing that I found interesting and whether you like it or not.

 

And that's why it crosses such a wide range of stuff.

 

So yeah, I mean, it is something I consider, but I do think you have to put a bit of you into stuff.

 

Otherwise it's just not interesting anymore.

 

Rob Bell:

I totally agree.

 

And that is one of the beauties of social media platforms, right?

 

Is that people can broadcast them and it's not filtered or censored in any way by anybody.

 

And sometimes that might be detrimental and other times it might be a real benefit.

 

But there is a platform, well, these are platforms, which means you can be totally true to yourself.

 

But Tommy, in your line of work, it's quite different, isn't it?

 

Because you need it to appeal and you need it to be clear to whoever that market is, wherever they are in the world.

 

So is it something you consider?

 

Tom Pellereau:

The whole time in packaging, especially, because we're designing products to be sold in the shelves in Tesco's and Boots and then Carrefour in France and Walmart in America and shops in Japan and Australia.

 

And just trying to therefore create, especially Europe is really tricky with all those languages in such a small kind of area where you're having to put Dutch and German and French and Spanish on the front of a packaging.

 

So therefore you end up putting much less writing at all.

 

And hilariously, despite my surname, I don't speak any French.

 

So I don't understand sort of what's being put on the front.

 

And then the different regulations is probably one of the trickiest things.

 

Like US, Canada, Australia, Europe, the UK, we all have our own variations of the same legal frameworks.

 

This is complicated.

 

It's just like, oh my gosh, the legislation side is really exhausting sometimes.

 

Rob Bell:

So how do you deal with that?

 

Because translation is one thing, right?

 

But like the messaging or the focus of what you're trying to portray might be different in different markets around the world, might it?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, you know, you've got to try and find your specialist niches, your areas.

 

And then I think a lot of the time is Western as we think of Christmas is like the really big time, you know, the big selling time.

 

And we completely forget about other religious festivals, you know, Eid and in China, non-religious festivals, you know, like Singles Day and all that sort of stuff.

 

And I've certainly grown my kind of understanding of cultures and religions and different countries, having been brought up, you know, very Western, very white middle class.

 

And you kind of think, well, Christmas is Christmas.

 

It's like the globe is like, no, it's huge here, but it's not a global event anywhere near.

 

So it's fascinating understanding these different things.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, in the context of this podcast episode, enough time has now been dedicated to this introduction.

 

In the context of our lives, we only learn and develop through pushing forwards.

 

And in the context of the history of the universe, I've got an early start in the morning, so I wouldn't mind wrapping this up before it gets too late tonight.

 

On with the episode.

 

This week, we take a closer look at something called the Accountability Ladder.

 

Eight ascending levels of accountability that range from utterly powerless to ultimately powerful.

 

A ladder we could all definitely place ourselves on at different heights if we assessed how we've handled different situations at different points in our lives.

 

You can see Jono's wonderful representation of the Accountability Ladder on your screen now as the artwork for this episode.

 

You can also find it in more detail at sketchplanations.com.

 

We'd also love to know your take on accountability and the Accountability Ladder.

 

You can email us, hello, at sketchplanations.com, or you can send us a message or leave us a comment on social media.

 

Right then, Jono, over to you.

 

Tell us a bit more about the Accountability Ladder, as well as I'm interested in knowing what effect it had on you when you first heard about it.

 

And I asked that second part of the question because in preparing for this conversation tonight, your sketch and your representation of this model has had a profound effect on me and how I've interpreted a lot of my own actions in life to date.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, Accountability Ladder, I think from the moment I heard somebody say they were gonna explain it to me, I thought, oh, this is gonna be interesting.

 

And it was explained to me by a chap called Buzz Pearce at an event and he said, what about the Accountability Ladder?

 

And all of a sudden, everybody's ears pick up.

 

Oh, well, let me tell you about it.

 

And the example he gave and the one in the sketch is from this chap called Bruce Gordon.

 

And it's a really nice example that everybody can relate to.

 

And so basically, there's a ladder of accountability where you're essentially taking no accountability all the way up to the top rung.

 

And he gives this example of a parent and a child who's come back and said, I didn't know about the homework tomorrow and I haven't done it.

 

And so right at the bottom run, you've got awareness, which is what homework.

 

And then the next level up, we're taking a bit more accountability as well.

 

Okay, I know there was homework, but the teacher wasn't clear that it was due tomorrow.

 

So let's blame.

 

And then the next level up is, well, it's too late for me to do it now.

 

There's no time left.

 

And so that's excuses.

 

And then the next level up is going, well, there's no time to do it now, but maybe it will be fine.

 

And so that's hope.

 

And so all of these bottom rungs, he puts in as part of the victim mindset, where you're not powerful, you're powerless.

 

And then the top half of the rung is where you switch in to be going, instead of being a victim, I'm going to be accountable.

 

I'm going to take accountability.

 

And when you're accountable, you're powerful, which is a point Bruce made which is really interesting.

 

And so those top rungs start with just acknowledging reality and so acceptance.

 

Okay, I haven't done the homework tomorrow, I should have done it.

 

Then it's next level up is owning it.

 

Right, I'll take care of it.

 

I'm going to do my best.

 

Next level up is, I've still got time, we can we can do this.

 

I've got an idea for it.

 

So that's find a solution.

 

And the last one is right, I'm on it.

 

I'm going to make it happen.

 

And so all the way from not even not even acknowledging that something needed doing all the way up to the very top of I'm on it, I'm going to make it happen is the accountability.

 

Rob Bell:

It's absolutely brilliant.

 

And I got quite drawn into this and really kind of retrospectively assessing a lot of decisions I've made or how I've responded to certain situations in life.

 

And I could probably place myself on every single one of those rungs at different points, according to the situation.

 

Tell me what you're going to go on.

 

Jono Hey:

Well, I was just going to say it hits home, doesn't it?

 

So once once you start thinking, you're like, crikey, all those occasions when you could have taken more accountability, you couldn't have done that.

 

Rob Bell:

Absolutely.

 

And the thing that the thing that I was so intrigued by was that exactly as you just said, once you move into that top half, those top four rungs, you then you're in control.

 

You have a bit more control.

 

And the higher you go, the more control, the more, as you say, more power you have.

 

And that feels a much better place to be in.

 

Tommy, yeah, accountability ladder.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's brilliant, isn't it?

 

Once you see that, you sort of go, oh, yeah, no, there is different types of accountability.

 

I do behave in different ways.

 

Because often I think we go through life and we don't even realize there are certain behaviors until you kind of see a really simplified framing, Jono, they often called that, or modeled, you know, and this is a really, really lovely one.

 

And you see it so much, Jono, I'm sure you see this in kids, like the whole time, the way they kind of escalate through different ones.

 

Jono Hey:

I remember myself as a kid, grump, grumping and grouching about going for a walk, I'm going to stay in the car, I don't want to go, I didn't want to come here anyway.

 

And you're all about the victim mindset, just blame, make excuses.

 

But fair, to be fair to kids, you don't have the level of power, right?

 

You do as an adult.

 

Rob Bell:

That's a good point, Jono.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

 

So yes, you could potentially earlier in life take more responsibility for things and accountability and get on with it.

 

But as a little kid, it's difficult.

 

Rob Bell:

That is a good point.

 

You are having all these things enforced upon you.

 

So you have no control.

 

And so yeah, play the victim.

 

Tom Pellereau:

But also I've got a pile of laundry behind me.

 

I hate sorting out laundry.

 

My wife Sarah is brilliant at kind of getting it all.

 

But then I turn into like a 12 year old kid, I've got to put my laundry away.

 

Rob Bell:

I've heard you moan about that before, Tommy.

 

And you've said, I wish someone would invent a way of like doing it all for you, putting, doing the folding, pairing the socks.

 

So you've you've recognized something, but you still haven't done anything about it.

 

You're still just moaning.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's true.

 

It's true.

 

It was that I have thought genuinely about it.

 

It's really, really difficult though.

 

And I'm hoping someone else will sort it for me.

 

But one day I'll have to sort it out and make robots that do fold clothing.

 

Rob Bell:

So you're at level four.

 

You're at level four.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Hope.

 

Yeah.

 

I must say, I'm quite a big fan of level four.

 

Hope.

 

I think it's I try to be in those higher levels all the time or as much of the time, but lapsing into hope is probably my biggest weakness, I must say.

 

Rob Bell:

I tend to agree with you.

 

I stumbled across quite a few examples when I've been on that number four hope rung of the ladder.

 

And I tried to distill it down to what is it about that situation that means I'm at level four, I'm at hope stage.

 

And it was basically that I want something to change, but I can't really be asked to do it.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

That was it.

 

That's the hope.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Well, hope is a positive kind of thing.

 

You feel like you're being positive, but it's not a way to really make things happen.

 

It's then moving up to the next stages, the acknowledgement of the reality.

 

What I do find, I don't know if you have a case, is it all depends on how much sleep I've had as to what level I'm kind of at.

 

So it's Tuesday, it's bank holiday yesterday, I had the longest lie and I've had for felt like years yesterday.

 

So I'm feeling very kind of empowered, but on Friday last week, I was very much in the what homework, the teacher wasn't clear kind of mindset, I must admit.

 

Rob Bell:

Specific examples, and I can give you some relatively insignificant examples in the grand scheme of things, but examples that were quite succinct, I thought.

 

Over the last few years, I've really started getting into cricket, and I've only played about five cricket matches in my life because of circumstances.

 

I didn't play as a kid because my school didn't do it, and I lived abroad, so there weren't cricket clubs, blah, blah, blah, blah, excuses, excuses, excuses.

 

But of the matches that I have played, I've loved playing, even though I might have gone out for a golden duck on two of those five matches.

 

It didn't matter.

 

I loved it, and I was just wanted to play more cricket, but I didn't want to go and join a club because I didn't want to do it all the time.

 

I just wanted to have the odd cricket match that I could be part of.

 

And so it was a case of just waiting around for a match where someone needed an extra player or something like that.

 

Until someone said to me, well, why don't you just put on a cricket match?

 

If that's what you want to do.

 

Yeah, that's a great, great idea.

 

I'll do that.

 

Yeah, that solves it.

 

I can do that.

 

I did not think of that.

 

I acknowledged the reality.

 

I owned it.

 

I thought, right, I'm going to do something about this.

 

I found the pitch and got players and got kit and everything together.

 

And then I made it happen and it was great fun.

 

I absolutely loved it.

 

And I will do it again when I haven't got so many things on.

 

Right down the ladder.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah.

 

It's snakes and ladders, isn't it?

 

There is the accountability.

 

There's probably a brilliant card game, no, board game here, isn't there?

 

Rob Bell:

The accountability game.

 

Tom Pellereau:

The accountability, like, or where it's with cards where there's your laundry just piled up again and you couldn't be bothered to do it, go back three stages on the date.

 

You know, you decided to organize your own cricket game because you love cricket.

 

Go up 10 points.

 

Rob Bell:

I certainly found it easier to think of examples when I've been in the accountable zone and probably less comfortable rather than more difficult, less comfortable identifying times when I was in the more kind of victim phase.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

I don't know how you boys felt.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, it's much easier to think of glowing examples of oneself.

 

Usually, I think I think we've met my worst one, sorry, I've had many of these, I'm sure.

 

One of one of the ones I think we've mentioned before is when I missed the flight to Jono's wedding.

 

And I remember going through and it's like, I can't believe Ryan there didn't call us.

 

I have been there.

 

And luckily, I was with a friend of ours, who immediately as soon as he works out, got his phone and started booking a flight of booking another flight as we're walking around the airport.

 

But he was at the city on it, but it wasn't his first time missing a flight, so he kind of knew the drill.

 

But that was, and I have since done it, and again, I was with some other people, and they were like, I can't believe it.

 

And again, I was just straight on the phone going, right, we've just got, we can't, the blade's not coming back.

 

Jono Hey:

I think it's interesting thinking of when you think of examples of these, I was trying to think, when have I been really lame, and then hopefully, like, come round and figure it out?

 

Oh, good.

 

Instead of instead of like, just wallowing in the complaining and the helplessness, which is sometimes quite, quite nice to do.

 

But it's interesting that somebody pointed out to you about like, oh, you could do the cricket game.

 

Yeah, I was thinking one of the things that perhaps helps you helps you move up the ladder is it's perspective is that is the outside viewpoint and realizing that, you know, these are just your little internal problems and somebody looking at from outside goes, I don't care about that.

 

I just care about this.

 

And, you know, that's a good point.

 

I was trying to think of somebody we used to work with a long, long time ago.

 

We don't we've done a presentation and we were presenting it that morning, but we did it really late and it wasn't as good as it should be.

 

And so we were making excuses and he said, don't give me this.

 

I don't want to listen to all this because you make me suffer twice.

 

First because the presentation isn't as good as it could be.

 

And second, I have to listen to all your excuses.

 

And then they went on to say, well, if this is what we've got, this is what we sell.

 

And I remember thinking, oh, I was way down there in the victim mindset.

 

Oh, it was really one of those times where I'm like, oh, yeah, just take accountability, make the most of what you got.

 

Rob Bell:

When you put the accountability ladder in that context, Jono, that's to me seems like a really great example of leadership.

 

Someone who's willing to take accountability and step up the ladder with it and bring people along up the ladder with them.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, it's probably something that CEOs do a lot.

 

Actually, there's a sketch which did get misinterpreted, which was really a story about, it's a story from Steve Jobs about training product managers at Apple.

 

He says, the sketch is basically somewhere along the line in the company between the janitor and the CEO, if something goes wrong, reasons stop mattering.

 

If you're the janitor and you're coming to clean the room and the room's locked and you don't have a key, nobody expects you to clean the room.

 

But if you're the vice president of this or that and something doesn't go right, at some level, I don't care why it didn't go right, the job is to make it right.

 

And the reasons stop mattering and that leadership is taking accountability, isn't it?

 

Rob Bell:

I was trying to think earlier about what is it that motivates somebody, myself included, to move from that behaviour, that victim behaviour, into accountability behaviour.

 

What is it that can drive that change from one another?

 

I think leadership and external perspective is probably something that can do that.

 

And I was starting to think, what were the excuses that I might give for the things that I haven't done or that I am in that kind of victim stage for?

 

And it's kind of, oh, I haven't got enough time, I don't have enough resource, I don't have the right knowledge, all these kinds of things.

 

But it kind of dawned on me, and it is quite obvious, that if you care enough about that issue, that situation, if you care enough, if it means enough to you, then you'll find the time, you'll do the research to get the knowledge, you'll bring in the right resources, you'll beg, steal and borrow whatever you need.

 

If it means enough, then you'll move up into the accountability stages.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah.

 

One of the most horrible examples of this is being on time.

 

And because if you're late, there's always excuses why you're late and I am often late.

 

But actually, ultimately, when someone points out to you, well, if you really wanted to be on here, you'd be on time, right?

 

And it's you decided to leave late for other reasons.

 

And it's like you've got to take accountability that you get.

 

I think we may have discussed this previously or let the person know you are going to be 15 minutes late, not hope that they'll be fine with you being 15 minutes late.

 

And that's a really horrible one to sort of feel, go, oh, do I not care enough that I wanted to be on time for that person?

 

I tell you what, the accountability letter was so present in The Apprentice because every week you are so accountable.

 

You've got like your 24 hours to do something.

 

And then you are in the boardroom and you're in for it.

 

And everyone's watching you do stuff.

 

Yeah.

 

And it's so accountability.

 

And I remember because you also do a lot of these one-on-one interviews.

 

And I sort of said, well, you know, I'm going to try my best on this one.

 

And the person, the AD talking to you goes, what do you mean, try?

 

Like Lord Sugar doesn't want people to try.

 

It wants people who can do.

 

And they're like, oh, right.

 

Yeah.

 

No, that's true.

 

Actually, I'm not going to try and do this.

 

I will do this sort of thing.

 

And you and some people on the tasks got really ground down by the constant accountability, desire and exhausted by it.

 

And which was very difficult, but you also, it was quite an amazing opportunity to really show yourself what you can do because you couldn't do anything else and time ran out, time ran out.

 

So best you can do it every minute.

 

Rob Bell:

Being towards the top of the accountability ladder, is that a measure of success of a person?

 

Their approach to tackling problems and their approach to tackling situations, does that relate directly to success?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, it's interesting.

 

I don't know about success, but it does relate to the kinds of people that I wanna be with.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, interesting.

 

Jono Hey:

Probably that I wanna be.

 

But it's like if you find yourself in a jam about something, that you want people around you who are like, gonna go, okay, let's make it happen.

 

Let's figure it out.

 

Let's figure out how to do this.

 

I'm gonna, you know, cycle the shop.

 

I'm gonna call around.

 

I'm gonna reorganize this thing.

 

We can still enjoy this.

 

We're not gonna just sit around and mope about it.

 

And so I don't know if that's success, but it definitely seems like being a better person.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Jono, Rob, in terms of your question, I think often a really good leader, a really good senior person is definitely very high on accountability.

 

And has the ability to stay high on the accountability and to try and pull others up rather than pushing other people down.

 

And Jono, yes, it's so much more fun to be around people who want to be accountable, who want to make things happen.

 

Rob Bell:

100%.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And we've been very lucky to know quite a few people like that.

 

As a result, we've all kind of lifted our levels, you know.

 

And Robby, as you say, it's so much easier to remember examples where you've done this well, isn't it?

 

Rob Bell:

Is there something there about group dynamics and kind of group mentality in that, let's say you're in a group of five people and two or three people are being quite positive and quite solution-oriented, i.e.

 

in the top rungs of the accountability ladder, it's very hard probably to stay on those bottom rungs when you're around people.

 

And so you kind of get swept up by that positivity and by that, and in this sense, by that accountability, let's call it.

 

Jono Hey:

I think you're always learning by example.

 

I was thinking about going up the ladder and I feel like just through life, most people go further up the accountability ladder, right?

 

And start being more accountable for their own lives and what's going on.

 

And that I think part of it is learning from other people who are doing that.

 

It was, it reminded me that there's a really nice writer called Paul Graham, who also did a number of startups and runs a Y Combinator bootcamp.

 

And he gave a speech once and he says, I thought it was really interesting at the time.

 

It was just this little throwaway thing, but it was, he said, you start being an adult when you decide to take responsibility for your life and you can do that at any age.

 

And I think it is something like that.

 

So basically saying, all through school, you just have stuff coming at you.

 

People take you to the next thing.

 

You just assume that the next class is gonna come at you and somebody will tell you what you're supposed to do next.

 

And then at some point, but actually at any point, you can go, you know what, I wanna organize my own cricket thing, cause I like cricket.

 

I don't have to wait for somebody else to come and do that for me.

 

So I think, yeah, it's a really interesting thing that sort of progression through life, taking more ownership, seeing other people do it.

 

Rob Bell:

I mean, I find it inspirational and it's, I want to be more like that.

 

And as you said, Tommy, yeah, we've got mutual friends who we've all spent quite a bit of time with who are absolutely like this.

 

And you don't want to be, you would never want to be around those people being on the lower end of the accountability ladder.

 

You just feel like you are dragging everybody else down around you.

 

I don't want to be like that.

 

True.

 

Jono Hey:

One of the things where people struggle in the large to take accountability at the moment, and for us all to make a difference is on the climate and the challenge of addressing climate change.

 

And I remember there was a really nice example of Greta Thunberg, when she was actually in the US and she was being interviewed, but it almost seemed like grilled by like a US senator, I think.

 

And he gave the example, he was like, well, what's the point in us all making things better if China's building all these coal power plants and they're burning through coal at faster, faster rate?

 

What does it matter what the US does?

 

And she just took it really calmly.

 

And she said, well, Sweden's just a small country and there are some people in Sweden who make exactly the same argument about the US.

 

And of course, if we all take that attitude, we're not gonna get anywhere.

 

Well, she didn't even say the last bit, but it just, it was implied coming through.

 

And I think, at large, we want to be around all of us to feel accountable for this and to go not being in the victim mindset.

 

We can't make it better.

 

We can't do anything about it, but to own it.

 

Well, first of all, to acknowledge it, which I think we're getting better at, but to own it and then find a solution.

 

And we all need to get on it and must start making it happen.

 

I think it's quite an interesting example of the accountability ladder really in the large global level.

 

Rob Bell:

It's a really interesting example.

 

And I was thinking about climate and environmental issues earlier as well, Jono.

 

And it's sometimes it's, sometimes I have found it quite hard though to get above the hope kind of level at certain degrees or at certain scales of climate change as an issue.

 

I mean, there are certainly areas where I take accountability for my own actions and where I've got solutions for those actions.

 

And I feel quite good that I'm in control of that.

 

And I'm doing it, I'm up the ladder on that.

 

But then there are other areas on that global sense where I can sometimes feel like I'm on that level for hope.

 

On big complex global issues like climate change, I got quite lost as to where I am on that ladder.

 

And I think it does depend at what scale you're looking at, micro or macro.

 

Jono Hey:

We're aware now and we might blame all the people who before us messed things up, but there's no point in excuses.

 

And we probably landed a lot of people at hope, maybe it'll be fine.

 

It's interesting comparing it with this homework example.

 

But if this was the homework, which we messed up and was due tomorrow and we need to do something about it, accountability ladder says we should up our game.

 

Then we start to be powerful.

 

Rob Bell:

It does, it does.

 

So when I was saying earlier about kind of identifying that I had responded to a number of situations that I couldn't really be bothered to do anything about at being on that level for hope, the one above that level five, where you do start moving into accountability and you're acknowledging the reality.

 

You're acknowledging the reality.

 

Thank you, Tommy.

 

That stage, I found to be the worst.

 

That for me was like the worst one to be at.

 

You're like, oh Christ.

 

Yeah, I've mucked up here.

 

And you want to get through that stage as quickly as possible, because it doesn't feel good.

 

When I was, and there are various different examples I could put that to, but you know that realisation, oh Christ, this is on me actually.

 

Jono Hey:

Can I give an example?

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, go Jono, please, thank you.

 

Jono Hey:

Well, two things.

 

One is somebody I worked with as a lead at a previous.

 

Rob Bell:

Oh, you're putting it on them, are you?

 

It's not your example.

 

Jono Hey:

She had a really nice way of saying it.

 

It sounded really dumb at the time, but I actually sort of learned the wisdom from it, which was just, it is what it is.

 

And I remember that for me was the acceptance point, like, okay, we thought we had an extra week, we don't have an extra week.

 

Well, it is what it is.

 

If something's bad news, we've got to pass on some bad news.

 

Well, it is what it is.

 

And I remember for me, first of all, that feeling quite good.

 

But the more personal example was, I actually, this is gonna sound strange, but I quite like it when I like, I'm by myself and I accidentally like break a plate or a mug or something or knock something over.

 

I did one the other day, I was heating up some porridge in the microwave and I knocked it as I was, this bowl of porridge as I was putting it in, and I poured the porridge down the hinge of the microwave, all the way down the hinge and in the microwave.

 

And the microwave was in the cupboard and it went under the microwave in the cupboard.

 

And of course, that was a pretty rubbish situation, but I quite like it when it happens by myself because it teaches me that patience and that acceptance.

 

Like it's not gonna clean itself.

 

There's no point moping about it.

 

The only way to make it better is to do something about it.

 

Nobody's gonna come in and clean it for me or say, oh, you poor thing, it wasn't your fault.

 

And so every time I do something like that, like break a plate, I'm like, here's an opportunity to teach myself acceptance and patience.

 

Probably not everybody does that.

 

Rob Bell:

I love the fact you have to be on your own in order for that to really take hold.

 

Jono Hey:

I think it matters more on your own, right?

 

Because nobody's gonna fix, you've got nobody to share it with and nobody's gonna help you.

 

Nobody's gonna like stroke your ego and go, oh, so sorry, that was really unlucky.

 

It doesn't matter.

 

It's up to you to sort it out in your own head.

 

Next time you break a plate and you're by yourself, use it as an opportunity to teach yourself.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It doesn't count if you don't do it deliberately, it doesn't count.

 

Jono Hey:

No, that's true.

 

Jono said it was okay to break plates.

 

Rob Bell:

In that acknowledgement of reality stage, where you've broken a plate and you realize that it's entirely your fault.

 

Do you not have, and this is definitely my reaction to it, do you not have a period of intense rage at your own incompetence?

 

I definitely do.

 

Like if I've missed an exit off the motorway or something, and the acknowledgement that it's only on me that I've done that, I'm taking accountability for it, and it drives me crazy.

 

I'll get through it in about 15 seconds, but it's so intense and I'm so angry at myself.

 

Just me.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I think it's okay to feel that.

 

I probably shouted to myself when some of this happens.

 

I think the exit on the motorway is quite a good example.

 

But then you very quickly realize, the only person you're ruining the experience of right now is yourself, right?

 

So grow up.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, just sort it out.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Should number five really be just grow up?

 

Rob Bell:

Come on, mate.

 

Take responsibility for your life.

 

Come on.

 

Come on.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I think also I'd like to mention that sometimes, I feel maybe that as a leader, you can take ownership of things.

 

Whereas, as the leader's responsibility, often is to allow other people to take the ownership of things.

 

And so as the leader, if you are like jumping to the whole, I can work this out, we can work, like you can very quickly often take over the ownership of something rather than letting your team or the individual who's potentially made the mistake or the individual to really own it and to make it happen rather than you taking over.

 

And I think then they then become the sort of the victim if you do that, which is very, very challenging.

 

Rob Bell:

I'm with you on that.

 

I was wondering earlier if there are potential downsides to being constantly at the top of that or responding to situations constantly at the top of the accountability ladder by always making stuff happen, taking it upon yourself to make stuff happen to make the situation better.

 

If there are-

 

Jono Hey:

It can be quite annoying, can't it?

 

There's sort of endless positivity.

 

Rob Bell:

That probably is the downside, yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

It's a very British thing to enjoy complaining, oh, it'll probably rain tomorrow anyway.

 

It's sort of some enjoyment in really wallowing in our powerlessness every now and then.

 

That's a good thing to do.

 

You're like, oh, stop trying to fix everything.

 

Rob Bell:

So two questions I've asked in this conversation about being on that top ladder and responding to situations constantly in that highest level of accountability is, is it a measure of success?

 

And actually, are there some downsides?

 

And to both, the question is yes, it can be a measure of somebody who's successful.

 

It can also be really bloody annoying.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And sometimes summary, and sometimes not helpful.

 

Like actually, you probably not almost want to be kind of like below someone's trying to help them climb out.

 

And often with the kids example, if you kind of coax them and get like, when Poppy starts screaming, you go, ah, I hate it too, Poppy, isn't it just rubbish?

 

Then they're like, oh, hang on, what's that?

 

We can't both be screaming, and they start sort of taking you.

 

Sometimes you've got to meet people at their level to try and help them.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, that's coaching, right?

 

That's coaching.

 

So is coaching, maybe I'm stretching the metaphor of the ladder too far now, but is coaching like stepping down a rung from the person behind to give them a little push up the ladder?

 

Jono Hey:

The classic coaching question is what do you want to happen and what are you going to do about it?

 

And it does, you know, you might be in a coaching session and inventing all the reasons why you're annoyed and stuck and say, what are you going to do about it?

 

And it's, yeah, it's helping you move up the ladder up to the next rungs to be an accountable, I think, yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

And it doesn't really matter where that coach is on that ladder, whether they're, it's not their situation to deal with, right?

 

I'm a very visual person, I'm trying to imagine somebody help pull someone up the ladder or behind giving them a shove up the ass.

 

That's-

 

Tom Pellereau:

Probably a coach is more like someone who's floating next to the ladder at whatever level they wish to be.

 

Rob Bell:

They're on their own ladder.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, they don't need a ladder.

 

Coaches don't need a ladder.

 

Rob Bell:

They fly a cherry picker for the day.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Or the cloud.

 

Jono Hey:

Nice extension.

 

Tom Pellereau:

There's a brilliant book called How to Talk So Children Listen, I think.

 

Jono, have you read it?

 

And one of the things it talks about is asking the children for their solutions.

 

Okay, so this has happened.

 

What's the solution?

 

Your vegetables are all mixed up.

 

What solution?

 

Well, you know, and I must admit, I find it really helpful as a, like when Jack's forgotten his thought, or he can't find it.

 

It's like, okay, Jack, so what are we gonna do?

 

We're just gonna like scream here for a little bit or kick stuff or what's the solution?

 

Rob Bell:

Throw up, Jack.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Rather than I just throw up and then going to get the sock torn.

 

Rob Bell:

That's tough coaching.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Tough coaching, but they're trying to be in a kind way.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, we've talked a lot about kind of journeys along the ladder ascending.

 

Would there ever be a situation where one might descend the ladder in their response to a situation or to a problem?

 

Jono Hey:

There was just once or twice when I was thinking through this situations where I wasn't proud of where something was going wrong, but I wasn't, and I wonder if this happens in The Apprentice or something, but it wasn't my situation and I didn't mess it up.

 

And instead of trying to help and fix it, I sort of, you know, it's like the, hold your hands up.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Just like that one slide.

 

Jono Hey:

You get us out of it, but that's not my finest hours.

 

Rob Bell:

Do you know, that's really important, right?

 

Because the situations that I identified myself where I was in the bottom four in that victim mentality, I'm really not proud of them either.

 

They're not stories you want to share, are they?

 

I mean, yeah, then that male's going to then.

 

Tom Pellereau:

For example, Jono and I were both doing the silence.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, don't pull that trick on me again, because you know I will chat through that silence.

 

I'd like to add finally tonight, that I have been slightly obsessed with Accountability Ladder, since I've kind of been looking at this over the past week and kind of preparing for the podcast tonight.

 

And I think it's something that's going to stay with me for some time after this podcast recording, and hopefully being conscious of it will help me kind of take more control of situations that I feel are important.

 

Again, I think it is all about that prioritization.

 

And we'd love to hear your thoughts listeners on this episode and your stories of times that you found yourself on one of the rungs of the Accountability Ladder, or indeed journeys along it.

 

And you can send us your messages or leave us comments, either via email, hello at sketchplanations.com or through our social media channels.

 

We'd also love it if you took a moment or two to subscribe to or rate and review the podcast through whatever podcast player you use.

 

Next week, we'll be taking a deeper dive into the contrast between front stage and backstage.

 

It's there on sketchplanations.com already if you want to get a head start, or if you have subscribed to the podcast series, it'll just pop into your life in audio form next week.

 

For now, I'm going to take control.

 

I've acknowledged that we're coming to the end of this podcast.

 

I'm taking ownership of making sure we don't just fizzle out from this episode.

 

I'm considering my options, and I've decided that this is the end.

 

The action I'm going to take therefore is to stop talking.

 

All right, I've just got a couple of messages to get through this week from last week's episode.

 

I mean, first of all, we've had loads and loads of messages and there have been reviews left up on like Apple podcasts and that kind of stuff.

 

So thank you all so much for that.

 

Some really, really lovely messages about the podcast generally.

 

I won't really go into it because it's too much back slapping, but it's really, really lovely.

 

Thank you.

 

It's much appreciated.

 

Guys, I don't know if you've had time to look through some of those comments, but people are really enjoying the podcast.

 

They love the chemistry.

 

What can we say?

 

Let's not say any more on that.

 

Jono Hey:

Many years in the making.

 

Rob Bell:

Many years, isn't it?

 

Gosh.

 

One piece of correspondence I saw on Twitter, which I really enjoyed from Brickmantooth, a close-up picture of a whole load of mushrooms asking simply, fungible?

 

Or probably should I say fungible?

 

Jono Hey:

Fungi?

 

Rob Bell:

It was good.

 

It was good.

 

It actually took me a while to get it.

 

And I was thinking, hmm, would a bag of mushrooms actually be fungible or not?

 

Jono Hey:

Could I swap them for another bag of mushrooms?

 

Rob Bell:

Genuinely.

 

It took me about five minutes going, yeah, that's probably a good, that's a really good example, actually.

 

What an idiot.

 

What an idiot.

 

Me, I mean, straight over my head.

 

It was only when I came back to the, ah, I see, I see.

 

Nice one.

 

Thank you.

 

Very clever.

 

We've had another comment from our friend, Prech, up on Twitter.

 

Again, this is about fungible and non fungible goods, saying that people are non fungibles by default, but in a company setting, its workforce are fungibles and can easily be replaced, especially when they've become part of the company's non performing assets.

 

What does that mean, non performing assets?

 

Jono Hey:

Not doing very well.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, okay.

 

Okay, so then you're in and you're out.

 

Jono Hey:

Find the replacement, yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, which is kind of what we talked about.

 

I guess it depends on the kind of roles as we talked about.

 

I think you were giving the example of like burger flipping or something in a fast food restaurant, I think last week, Jono.

 

Yeah, but then in other companies, depending on the roles, and you know, skills, depending on the type of work, depending on the type of people, depending on how great your manager is or not.

 

Indeed.

 

But I enjoyed that last week.

 

It got quite a bit deeper than I thought it might.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, it got me thinking, it's good.

 

Rob Bell:

Tommy, have you had any feedback on any of the podcasts this week, podcast generally or any of the other episodes?

 

Tom Pellereau:

So a good friend of mine said, I've actively built my career on being fungible.

 

I'll bore you briefly when I see you on Thursday.

 

So I'm not quite sure entirely what he means.

 

A part of me thinks that, hasn't he misunderstood that or is he deliberately trying to be replaced the whole time?

 

Jono Hey:

I think he's gonna bore you about it on Thursday.

 

He's gonna explain to us next week.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Oh, yeah.

 

So what, trying to just hide, just slot in, slide in amongst the crowds.

 

Tom Pellereau:

He deliberately wishes to be replaceable constantly.

 

Find out Thursday.

 

Jono Hey:

I just remember this chap called Edward de Bono and he proposed, he's a big proponent of lateral thinking, for example.

 

He proposed that if you worked in the government or like the civil service, and you could find a way for what you needed your job to do to be done without you needing to do it, then the government should pay you your full salary for life anyway.

 

And then you could go do whatever else you needed to do.

 

Rob Bell:

Love that.

 

Jono Hey:

And of course, nobody ever does that, right?

 

Like if you're so smart that you managed to automate your job away or make it not needed, you never get the benefit of that.

 

It's very hard to agree to, even though it's actually quite, I think that's logically makes sense.

 

Rob Bell:

It's brilliant.

 

It logically makes sense.

 

And it's quite motivational as well, I reckon.

 

Do you know, it reminds me another one of your sketches, Jono, a little bit about, I think this is more about kind of knowledge and information management.

 

I think the sketch is someone gets run over by a bus and it's like, well, what have they taken with them?

 

Does anybody else know where the keys are kept?

 

Or, you know, that kind of thing.

 

So it's that, that plays a little bit into the fungible, non-fungible sense, maybe.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, definitely.

 

It's called the bus factor, right, you know.

 

Rob Bell:

Say it as it is.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, you, it's, you know, careful who you put on the same plane, you know, like Ronaldo is irreplaceable, but somebody else isn't, you know, that kind of thing.

 

Or the person who's built all of the fundamental core technology, if they're the only one who knows it and nobody knows how to fix it, if it goes wrong, then yeah.

 

Then your bus factor is very low, very high.

 

Rob Bell:

So when when we all get the train to go and do that event we're doing in September, I think it is, should we actually, all three of us get separate trains just in case?

 

Jono Hey:

We probably should.

 

Rob Bell:

We probably should.

 

Jono Hey:

It would be too big a loss.

 

Rob Bell:

Do you know what, though, if we left you and me to get on different trains, there's a high likelihood that we'd both miss them and be late.

 

No, let's stick to it.

 

We'll all get on the same train.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's best if we just follow Jono.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Let him make sure we get on the right train.

 

Rob Bell:

As with so many things.

 

All right, guys, well, thank you all very much again for listening and for your correspondence.

 

We'll be back next week.

 

Stay well, go well.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Cheers.

 

Jono Hey:

Thanks, everyone.

 

Rob Bell:

All music on this podcast series is sourced from the very talented Franc Cinelli.

 

And you can find loads more tracks at franccinelli.com.