Starting a Company

Jono Hey:
All of my life, I've jumped off the cliff and I've built my wings.

It works every single time.

It never fails.

He's not just talking about a company.

He's like, if you don't do this, you're going to miss life.

Rob Bell:
Have you got one piece of pithy advice from your experience?

Tom Pellereau:
Apply for The Apprentice and win it.

That is the most amazing thing that's happened to me.

I don't know if I've got much more advice beyond that.

Rob Bell:
OK.

Not what I was expecting, but I love it, Tommy.

Jono Hey:
The most truly worthy things that you do in your life are like this.

If I'd have known how hard it was going to be, then I wouldn't have started it.

But I'm glad I did.

Tom Pellereau:
My dad has always run his own business.

My uncle, my cousin, my other uncle, it's all very much been in the sort of family.

I don't know, are we just not employable by anyone else?

Is that really where you start a business?

Rob Bell:
Hello and welcome to Sketchplanations The Podcast.

This week, we're talking about a quote from American Internet entrepreneur, Reid Hoffman, that starting a company is like jumping off a cliff and assembling the plane on the way down.

Now you'll be able to see Jono's action-packed sketch for this quote, as the artwork for the episode, but I'll also include a link to it in the podcast description where you'll be able to access it at a much higher resolution, along with links to any other sketches or items that we reference along the way.

And if you'd like to share your own experiences that relate to this quote, please send them along to hello at sketchplanations.com.

Or you can leave us a note or even a voice note by clicking on the blue microphone button on the Contact Us page of the podcast website.

It's as easy as that and we would love to hear from you.

But Jono, let's come to you in time-honoured tradition.

Can you please tell us a bit about this one as, actually this is one of a number of quote sketches you've done, right?

And I want to ask you whether you enjoyed plotting out the narrative sequence of the sketch, which I guess will become clear as you talk about it, because I feel like I would have enjoyed figuring out, right, what comes next, what comes next, what comes next.

Over to you.

Tell us about the sketch.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, sure.

So the sketch, as you say, is this quote, which is starting a company is like jumping off a cliff and assembling the plane on the way down.

And I remember when I heard it, it just you're just like, you're like, oh, yeah, I can I can relate to that the sort of chaos as you're trying to figure stuff out as you're getting on.

But it's just so visual.

So I remember thinking, hey, it would be really nice to actually draw somebody assembling a plane as they're flying off a cliff and trying to do that before they hit the bottom.

And how the heck would they do that?

And so, yeah, the the sketch has a big cliff by the sea with with, you know, actually quite realistically, probably a person, probably a well-meaning friend holding them back and saying, maybe you shouldn't do this.

And then but then leaping off with a kind of parachute thing, which somehow they've picked out a number of parts of a plane.

And by the time they get to the bottom, they just managed to fly away in time without crashing, kind of with a few bits of sweat from the stress of the whole thing.

Rob Bell:
So yeah, that's very good.

I mean, it's on your, it's on your screens there now, listeners have a little look or even go to the website and see it in its, in its full glory.

It's a great little sketch, Jono.

But so then back to my question, did you enjoy drawing that?

Did you enjoy figuring that out?

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

It was one of these ones.

I don't know, like sometimes I work, it takes me a really long time to figure everything out.

For some reason, this time, you know, like, I just, every, every, there must be four frames on the way down and then they're flying off.

And yet everyone has to, like, progress in some way.

And you have to go through a certain amount of chaos.

So there's one where he's upside down, you know, and then there's one where he's trying to get in the plane.

And so it just sort of it felt quite natural as I was doing it.

I remember going, oh, yeah, that kind of works.

It's a good thing there probably weren't any more more frames.

Otherwise, I'd have started struggling.

He does do it.

Rob Bell:
Do you know what I do?

You haven't explained that I will.

I'm now looking at it in a slightly different way because of the chaos elements to it.

I've enjoyed the kind of assembly of a plane that's coming together.

He's pulling out his backpack.

And I'm now looking at it and seeing the chaos that you're talking about as well.

But it's interesting that you had to program that in.

You had to design that in.

I really love it even more.

Jono Hey:
It's literally upside down trying to get something out of his backpack, right?

That sort of challenge that you're trying to figure out potentially when you're starting a company.

And Reid Hoffman, by the way, was co-founder of LinkedIn and is now a major investor.

It could well be that I heard this first from a podcast.

He does cause the Masters of Scale podcast, which has had a lot of episodes, including some really sort of foundational ones.

And one we always used to have everybody on our team listen to.

The very first episode is with Brian Chesky from Airbnb, and he talks about the founding of Airbnb and the things they had to do to make that work, which is just really fascinating.

And so, you know, he probably knows quite a lot about starting companies.

So, yeah, it's a good quote.

And actually, the Masters of Scale podcast itself also has a lot, because obviously it's speaking with entrepreneurs at different stages through their journey, and how they go from a small company to a big company.

And it's got tons of stories of people and how they struggled along the way.

It's like there are fires burning and we're going home.

And that's the sort of bit in the intro, you know, it's that kind of that kind of feel in the whole thing.

Rob Bell:
So Tommy, we come to you.

Now, I mean, to be fair, you've been banging on at me for months to do this sketch, because it obviously is one that appeals to you.

I'm joking, obviously, but obviously this is one that appeals to you.

You are somebody who started your own company from scratch.

You're the founder.

And now you run it and you've grown it.

So where do you want to start with this sketch and how it relates to you and your experience?

Tom Pellereau:
Well, in comparison to ones about words, affect and effect, and ones about other stuff, which I have no clue what they're about.

Rob Bell:
Honestly, since the first series, Tommy's gone, oh, we could do the one about starting a company.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we can come to that one at some point.

Tom Pellereau:
The only one I feel I have actually any life experience of.

But at the same time, Jono has been involved in a number of very, very successful startups as well.

So yes, I have spent most of my life in startups.

Style Ideas, which is my one with Lord Sugar, is my most recent and by far my longest and most successful, because we're now 12 years together.

And quite a big team, we're 20-odd people and sort of 5 million plus turnovers.

So it's grown incredibly, but I was involved in six or seven before that.

My dad has always run his own business.

My uncle, my cousin, my other uncle, it's all very much been in the sort of family that we are people who, I don't know, are we just not employable by anyone else?

Is that really why you start a business?

Because no one else will have you the way that you are.

Jono Hey:
To be fair, Tom, because we met at university, and I always remembered it was never in my mind that I would start a company.

My parents worked mostly in academia, and it was like, OK, well, that's a nice path, or there's lots of jobs that you can go get working at other people's companies.

And it didn't cross my mind to start a company.

And for you, I feel like it was the most natural thing in the world to go like, oh, maybe we'll start a company afterwards.

And I thought, well, we're brilliant.

Rob Bell:
I think that's a really good point.

There's like a cultural thing here, right?

It's something that we've been influenced, perhaps you are, one is, I should say, influenced by, from the people surrounding them.

So Tommy, you say you always grew up surrounded by entrepreneurs, people starting their own companies.

So if I look at my siblings, to an extent, I run my own company, but I haven't started a business.

I just freelance in what I do.

My brother runs his own business, and my sister does a bit of both.

She has part-time, has a job, paid job, paid job.

I'm really pleased for her.

So part-time, she works for a company.

Well, she's got a permanent position, I should say, that's it.

But other times, she's got a couple of side hustles that she does, kind of, her own things as well.

So I wonder if that's...

I think now, and I think, you know, my dad, he worked for a big, large, massive corporate all his life.

Yeah.

But we probably all knew that he...

if he had his time again, he might have done things differently, and it afforded him a great life, and I'm very grateful to that.

But I think, I think he might have done things differently.

I wonder if that's rubbed off on us at all.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

I think nowadays it's so much more accessible and talked about an almost like cliched or a founder, a CEO, blah, blah, blah, which has almost sort of gone the other way, that people are like, have, I think, less...

less of a glowing feeling towards that concept.

But certainly 20 years ago, when we were leaving uni, it was relatively rare.

And because it is a ridiculous thing to do, quite frankly, it is, you know, who would in their right mind jump off a cliff without a plane or any sort of source to look after them and decide to try and make it on the way down.

But it is a lot of fun and you've got all the bits.

And it also, it can really soar.

And, you know, I'm incredibly fortunate to be involved in a business that's really growing.

I can employ some great staff around me and can have a different life than I would have been able to had I not started that business.

But the thing I think is missing from your sketch, Jono, is the wads of cash that he's also simultaneously throwing.

Rob Bell:
Oh, nice.

Showering down around him.

Tom Pellereau:
Down around.

Or the fact that the height of the cliff, obviously the higher the cliff, the more time you've got to build the thing.

The height of that cliff is dependent on how much cash you have before you hit that base layer.

But as you say, I love this sketch, and I do encourage people to start a business because I think you can do brilliant things.

It's a lot easier than it used to be.

Rob Bell:
Can we really keep this metaphor alive strong throughout this whole episode?

I think that would be brilliant.

We are, I wanted to keep doing that.

Is there a point of no return, Tommy?

Do you remember where you're stood at the top of that cliff and there being a moment where you commit to jumping off?

Yeah, right, while I'm doing this, here we go.

Tom Pellereau:
Yes, I think firstly, it's very important to note that the reason they're called limited companies, they often have that LTD at the end.

That's because it's limited liability, as in if the company goes bust, the individuals involved are protected, as it were.

You're not actually throwing yourself off a cliff, depending on how much money you put in.

There is the bounciness at the bottom.

But the metaphor does work pretty well that you do have to get to commit.

But I always do encourage people, if they're thinking of starting a business, to try and keep paid employment 1, 2, 3 days a week, towards the beginning, to kind of reduce the risk of starting it and try to take baby steps rather than approaching the edge of a…

you know, maybe do little jumps down before taking the big plunge off the end.

So I don't think the metaphor does continue completely, unless you've got an amazing idea or unless you're actually probably entirely insane.

Rob Bell:
Hmm, okay.

Well, so another question I was going to ask, is that cliff?

Tom Pellereau:
Yes.

Rob Bell:
Is it…

here we go.

I am taking this through to the bitter end.

Is it a psychological cliff that you have to kind of go, right, I'm doing this and deciding in your mind, is it something more tangible about having all the pieces of the jigsaw in place?

Is it a bit of both?

Tom Pellereau:
I think for…

it depends hugely.

I think for many people, it's not really a cliff at all.

It's just a sort of organic thing that gradually happens over time.

And some might describe it a bit more of a fog.

They kind of just go into a fog and they can't really see and it sort of gradually clears like you're walking on a marsh and you kind of know the directions over there, but you can't exactly see how it's all coming together.

For me, it was a bit of a cliff because Lord Sugar made it clear that when I started with him, I couldn't have any other business.

I couldn't work for anybody else.

I couldn't have any other side hustles or any other side jobs.

So it was a bit of a jump or a cliff, but he also injected 250,000 pounds into the business.

So my cliff was, you know, I had a lot of support around me.

Rob Bell:
Was that the boot, being the boot up the mass behind you from standing on the top of the cliff?

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, you're off, you go.

And he was always very, you just go and do it.

Like, just get on with it, you know, and that's his style.

And that is a pretty helpful thing.

But I think we should bring Jono into this as well, because he's been involved in many startups.

Rob Bell:
Absolutely, Jono.

So how do you relate to Reid Hoffman's quote here?

And from your experience of that, the chaos as you talked about and the...

What you do have with this metaphor is this time limitation, right?

You're up against it to get everything in order before it's too late.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

In the companies that I was at, which were generally venture funded or angel investors in some form, you often talk about runway, which is another play.

But it's a different one, right?

You haven't launched yourself off cliff, you're trying to figure it out.

I guess runway is like you're trying to get the plane airborne before you hit the barriers at the end.

The cash you bring into the business extends your runway and gives you a bit longer to play with before the business has to be self-sustaining.

And so I do think there is, in any business, and like Tom, you said, I think it's a nice thing with the money swirling around this guy, like falling out of his pocket as he's going down, it's like that money runs out at some point, and you have to make it work before the money runs out.

Unless, you know, maybe you can do a slow burn business where you keep your job on the side and you slowly pick it up.

But I think, you know, Reid Hoffman, he wasn't talking about that kind of business.

He was like, if you're going for a business, you're going to go big, you're going to go for scale, you're going to invest in it, and you're going to put your all in it as well.

And there, very often, I think, as soon as you're in, you've kind of got this ticking clock, because you've got like, okay, well, we've got this money, how are we going to make it last as long as we can to make the business bring enough money in so that we can keep going?

And so that, I guess it's not extending the runway, it's pushing the sea further down.

Rob Bell:
Good, good, good, it's a taller cliff.

Jono Hey:
I'm doing my best, Rob, yeah, I'm doing my best.

Rob Bell:
Thank you, Jono, I appreciate it massively.

Tom Pellereau:
Or often you use the extra money to make the plane stronger or bigger, so you can fly further or faster.

Jono Hey:
You can build a little parachute to slow your fall, couldn't you, along the way, so that you had more time to build the plane.

Rob Bell:
But this is it, right, because this is all about getting something off the ground.

So I didn't mean to get to that one.

But then surely there are elements, there are new elements and there are developments that will happen along the way.

So it's sustaining height, it's sustaining altitude, but you want it to climb.

And so that's when you can afford yourself to start bringing in new elements.

Is that what you guys have both experienced with getting businesses off the ground?

Tom Pellereau:
You have that jumping off the cliff moment, which I think is a pretty good metaphor, and you're kind of hurtling towards the ground, and you've got to build the plane to kind of get you going and get you maybe kind of level.

But then once the plane is flying, it's still not necessarily safe if you've built it by hand as you're falling off a cliff.

You know, it's probably quite likely to then collapse.

So you have to start improving it in flight, so to speak.

And I can certainly relate to the chaos.

But I can also relate to the fact that you do need different crew with you for that kind of jumping off the cliff, because you don't tend to do this on your own.

But when you are kind of stable and flying and then hopefully, you know, growing, you do need different types of people around you.

And I've really seen that over the 12 years that the people I'm employing now who are joining the team are quite different to the people I had at the beginning in a very, you know, in a brilliant way.

But you do need different people at different stages of that flight.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I'm with you.

Jono Hey:
And I should be also completely clear.

I wasn't a founder of either of the companies that most recently I've been involved in, but I was a very early employee of both.

So I was a different type of person.

It was like somebody had already jumped off the cliff.

And then they were like, help me figure out how we build this plane.

Tom Pellereau:
And I have a lot more respect for people like Jono, because the people who jump off the cliffs, they're just idiots, right?

The people who join someone who's joked off a cliff, they're the real like respect, the people who are worth the respect.

I know, I'll go and help him.

No, no, run away from him.

He's clearly insane.

So those people who come and join lunatics like me to try and help build that dream and make it possible and grow it.

I think what would you there's an expression from Jono, isn't it?

Like first movers or those fast followers is, but I don't know if that's it.

You sent me a great video once of someone, some crazy person dancing on his own on a thing.

And then it's he's just a crazy person.

But then the second and third people who join him just dancing on his own, they're the ones that sort of make the movement and make it happen.

Rob Bell:
But I see that.

That's nice.

Jono Hey:
It's not fast.

It's like the first follower or something.

But yeah, it's a great it's a great video.

I forget who who originally sent it.

But it's yeah, it's basically this festival field.

And there's loads of music going on at one end, which you can't see.

And everybody sat down just like having picnics, just watching the music.

And one one guy is like crazily dancing.

And then somebody else gets up and crazily dances with this crazy guy, who's the only one who's dancing.

Rob Bell:
And then which then makes it slightly less crazy.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
And then a couple of friends kind of join them because they're dancing.

And you just see in the progression of like a minutes video, how this one crazy dancing guy got every single person on this field on their feet, dancing to the music.

It's quite an amazing thing, as you say, the power of like the second person coming in going, hang on, I think they're doing something quite interesting there.

I'm going to get involved and help them out.

Tom Pellereau:
And that in many respects, it's almost more of a risk.

But I have huge respect for those who come and join people like me.

Because it is a risk.

And it's pretty hard work to be around entrepreneurs, I think.

Jono Hey:
I know this, I think this is an interesting metaphor.

But is, and it captures a lot of the elements of starting a business.

But I think there are a number of other ones, which we've also touched on.

Like, as you say, like, you're not always going to crash and die.

Sometimes you'll like jump off and people just won't hear about your business and you'll go back to your day job, you know.

Rob Bell:
Slightly maimed.

Yeah, injured.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
Will they go again?

Your pride is hurt.

Rob Bell:
But you do hear that story a lot from entrepreneurs, right?

It's fail, fail, fail, fail, succeed.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
Maybe the second time you know how to build a plane a bit better or something.

But I was thinking that the one that resonated a bit more with me, in my experience of like building and trying to scale these companies was, there's a Wallace and Gromit film.

I can't remember which one it is.

So Wallace and Gromit, the two animated things like inventor kind of guy likes his tea and his slippers and he's got his dog who's always like tirelessly, he's a bit like the second person.

He's like tirelessly working to like fix all the flaws that this other guy thinks up.

Rob Bell:
And prevent anyone from killing themselves.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

And he's absolutely the genius.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, exactly.

And there's one bit where I can't remember why, but they're kind of out of control and they're chasing something and he's on a train on some tracks.

Rob Bell:
Oh, he's on a model train.

Jono Hey:
A model train, yeah.

And the tracks are going to run out and it's going to be a disaster.

And then he grabs the box of the train tracks and he's sat on the train, scooting across the carpet.

And he's laying the tracks in front of him as he goes.

And then he's like, hit a wall and then he lays the bends.

Yeah, and they're shooting around.

Rob Bell:
That is a great comparison, Jono.

Yes.

And would you say that that resonates more with you?

Jono Hey:
In some ways.

And maybe that's because I wasn't perhaps the person who did the initial jump off the cliff.

My experience with the company is like, if we don't do this this month, it's all going to collapse quick.

Put the track down, put the track down, put the next bit.

Oh, no, there's a gap.

Somebody figure out how to build a bridge.

I don't know.

It's that kind of experience is more what I had.

So I thought that I remember thinking of that scene and going, yeah, that's kind of really what I relate to.

Tom Pellereau:
I think that's a brilliant metaphor as well, you know.

Boots have said they won't deal with us unless we get EDI.

What's EDI?

I don't know.

Google it.

Right.

Okay.

EDI is, we need this, we need that.

Oh my gosh.

The Douglaus have said they won't, they need we.

What on earth is we?

Well, I don't know.

Say that we're on it and we'll work it out.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, that's the way it's all in order.

Rob Bell:
Has anyone got another box of track?

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

And then someone comes up to you about a trademark.

Someone comes up to you about this.

So we go, oh gosh, yeah, that is absolutely the way, which is pretty fun.

And it's pretty terrifying at the same time.

But gradually you get better at and you go, oh yeah, no, we have had to do this before.

And oh yeah, Curry's asked us for that.

So we know how to do this and da, da, da.

Rob Bell:
So it becomes less scary, it becomes less intimidating, would you say?

Tom Pellereau:
Yes, yes, gradually.

And it also depends on how much you're trying to grow, because there are different types of business.

Some are trying to sort of grow quite aggressively, others are just sort of happy with how it is.

And some others are just sort of trying not to shrink, if you know what I mean.

And we are very much involved in continuing to try to grow and expand into Scandinavia and Germany, and you constantly come up with new things that you'd not necessarily previously heard of.

Like someone said yesterday, do you have your, what was it?

Your, this is one, do you have your Lucid and your Dual Systems Certification?

And I went, hmm, I'm sure I've heard of Lucid.

Okay, well, let's tick that box, and I'm sure we'll find out.

Rob Bell:
And we had, what was this for?

This is for a product.

Tom Pellereau:
This is for a product to launch in the German market, and Lucid and Dual Systems Certification, which I can happily say we do have, is all about packaging recyclability in Germany.

Rob Bell:
Right, okay.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, and it's L-U-C-I-D rather than Lucid Dream.

But yeah, every week these sort of things come up, and we're like, okay, what is that?

Rob Bell:
Okay, so my question now to you, Tommy, this is 12 years in after you've jumped off the cliff, right?

So if there's still all this stuff now, I guess the difference is now that you've done, you've been faced with lots of these challenges before.

So as we were just saying, you're not as intimidated or as scared or as panicked by it as maybe you once might have been.

I'm assuming, and then you come back.

You now have a team around you.

Tom Pellereau:
Yes, that's the big difference.

Rob Bell:
People who specialize in certain areas.

So great.

This is our collective responsibility to do this.

And thirdly, I don't have a third one, but these things tend to come in three.

So I'll go to three.

Is there a point where you go, okay, well, this is no longer this kind of panic, putting down the track or quickly assembling the plane.

This is actually how a business works now.

This is, we're up and running, we're flying.

And this is how it works, because we're doing new things as a business.

Tom Pellereau:
So we've been having this discussion a bit recently, because it has felt like for two, three, four years, we've been kind of chasing our tail, trying to keep up, trying to catch up with things.

And will this ever get kind of easier?

And it does depend hugely on what your aspirations are, how fast you're trying to grow, what you're trying to achieve.

And the other thing is that these do come up a lot less regularly than they used to.

You know, at the beginning, they're like once a week, once a day, you're stumbling into things.

And now it's kind of monthly.

But different regulations do pop up and do come in.

But the big difference is you gain a team around you of experienced people and also external help who's able to support you and do these things.

And that's absolutely incredible.

And I must say we are so lucky to live in a world where you can find these professionals to help you support and you can find the answers to stuff really much, much more rapidly than you used to be able to.

Rob Bell:
Hmm.

Yeah.

Okay.

And like you say, there are probably way more founders of companies now, right?

Particularly, I would say young or younger founders of companies than they have been in previous decades.

Is that because we're in the digital age and, you know, it might be slightly not easier.

I'm not saying it's easier at all, but more accessible for individuals who then might want to form a company to get a service off the ground, to start something because it's digital now, instead of physical.

Yeah, I think a lot of it, a lot of new companies.

Tom Pellereau:
A huge amount easier than it used to be in many respects.

And all the forms and things are online.

And the UK is very good at making it easy to start a business.

Things like Brexit did cause an enormous amount of headache, especially for businesses like ours that have to export things.

But we have now worked out the majority of that.

And so we've got over that hurdle and we're on to kind of the next ones.

And as a business, you have to also decide what you're going to do.

Like we have decided that there's no point really us trying to get into the Japanese or the Korean market.

We just don't know enough about that.

We're much better to focus on Europe and America.

And that decision has made life a lot easier because there's a huge amount of unknowns in those regions.

Rob Bell:
So you then start to put, I'm trying to bring us back to a metaphor here.

What those, you start to draw, you start to draw your boundaries of where you want to operate.

You've got a flight plan.

Tom Pellereau:
There we go.

Jono Hey:
I was going to say, Rob, that I think that, like, there is, I remember reading this thing where it said that founders and CEOs were actually often, like, somewhat psychotically overconfident to the point where, like, you know, it wasn't normal.

Like, they were confident beyond all the realms of that you ought to be confident.

And so everybody around them would be saying, no, that's not possible.

And then they'd be saying, yes, we can do this.

And I think that, to some degree, that's true.

I don't know how much it's actually like a mental condition.

But I've definitely I've definitely seen that.

And I, you know, the founder of Nutmeg was incredible that he had to the goal and the courage to say, we're going to do something that's going to challenge these banks about how they do it, like these giant companies.

And, you know, we were in a shed by the side of the railway for people trying to build something.

How can you possibly compete?

And he believed all the way through in what he was doing.

And I think in some ways, most people just wouldn't believe because they'd see that this is impossible and you're going to hit the ground before you can build the plane.

And he's like, yeah, be fine.

Jump.

Rob Bell:
Well, this is optimism bias, right?

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

Rob Bell:
Is that what we're talking about?

This is optimism bias on steroids.

Because now I'm thinking of your optimism bias sketch.

And there's a fantastic episode that we did in series one, I think, on optimism bias of an evil, Knievel type character on the motorbike jumping the Grand Canyon.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, I think possibly one of our best episodes.

If we do say so ourselves.

I think you're right.

And Rob, you asked that question earlier about, does it ever get easier?

Do these things ever go away?

And my part within the business, in many respects, is to deal with the new or the difficult.

So the team are brilliant at running and developing the business that we kind of have.

But if it's a new area like marketplaces, we're trying to get lists or if it's something difficult or new, we're trying to open a new account, we're trying to open a new product.

That's the area that I really thrive in.

And it's hard work and it's ridiculous.

But I kind of like doing the challenging new stuff.

And the business also quite like me not in getting involved in the day to day.

Because if I get involved in the day to day, I might start changing things that don't need changing.

Rob Bell:
So Luton Town had a football manager called John Steele years ago.

And his mantra on this was, what he can do is control the controllables.

Right.

And we still talk about that as Luton fans now, control the controllables.

Is that what you're saying your team are great at doing now?

Because it's the known, it's the known environment and the known climate in which they work, which is why you've brought them in, because I need somebody to do this thing that I know that needs to be done.

And I need to find someone who's great at doing that.

Whereas you're out there trying to fight and overcome the uncontrollables or things that you don't know about yet.

Tom Pellereau:
Potentially, I think, you know, I've got professionals who are really good at doing marketing, doing sales, doing supply chain, doing doing these things, which I'm pretty rubbish at doing something for a second or third time.

I enjoy doing something that's new, that's difficult, that's challenging, and that people, you know, that probably maybe normal people wouldn't get involved in.

But I am rubbish, or understandably, but I'm pretty rubbish at doing anything for the second or third time kind of thing.

So, you know, putting in orders, chasing about this, doing that, it just, so I have these amazing people who work with me to help ensure that the whole business gets everything done that needs to be done.

Jono Hey:
I think when you were saying about unknowns, because I was thinking it was, I think it's so easy to underestimate and to think that it looks, oh, this is all we have to do, and then it's going to be fine.

And then you don't realize, just like Tom was saying, all these things that come up, you're like, oh, I didn't realize that.

The unknown, Donald Rumsfeld's Unknown Unknowns, right?

Those are the things that get you.

And so, in a way, you know, it's quite nice to start a company when you're young, because you think that it's going to be more straightforward.

And if you're older and more experienced, you've seen all these different ways that things can fail, you're like, no, no, no, that's going to be impossible.

But actually, you still need these people to jump off the cliff.

But some of what gets you off the cliff sometimes is not realizing how damn hard it's going to be.

Rob Bell:
You've teed me up brilliantly from my next question here, which is maybe this is kind of starting to round off this conversation.

We've talked a lot about the challenges and the barriers and having to overcome this.

And it sounds awful.

It sounds really difficult and really hard work, which is fine.

But not all that pleasant either.

So why would you do it?

What's the reward, would you say, having been through it in slightly different guises, the both of you?

Jono Hey:
Like most truly worthy things that you do in your life, I like this sort of thing in some way, the way you have that realization where if I'd have known how hard it was going to be, then I wouldn't have started it.

But I'm glad I did.

And I think that's that's like the case whenever you sign up for a really hard endurance event as well, you're like, you couldn't really picture how much you were going to struggle at the end of the marathon.

If you had pictured that properly at the beginning, you probably wouldn't have done it because it was going to be horrible.

But you're really glad that you did.

And so I feel like, you know, businesses, you can be really proud of them and you can be satisfied and they can achieve amazing things.

There's a sketch I have, I have it on my wall, which is this The Twin Engines of Altruism and Ambition.

And if your business is trying to do something good, and you have that ambition, the business can be a great way to do that, because you can achieve so much more than you can as an individual.

So I think, I think there is a lot that you can get out.

And you can, you know, maybe you can have fun building the plane and meeting all these cool team along the way.

And some aspects of it that you don't like so much get easier.

But yeah, mostly I was thinking, you know, I think most, most truly worthy things in life are some way a bit like this parenting as well.

You know, nobody, nobody really knows what it's like to have a kid until you have it.

Rob Bell:
So yeah, building the cot on the way down off the cliff and the baby needs somewhere safe to land.

Tom Pellereau:
In many respects, the best metaphor for starting a business is having a child.

You know, because it is very, very hard work at the beginning, filled with some amazing aspects, but also some real challenges.

Over time, as that child, as that business grows, they can become their own individual and then be beyond, you know, beyond you, as it were.

And that's incredibly satisfying to see, very rewarding.

And hopefully you've helped set up something that is brilliant, that potentially does great good in the world.

And also for many people, starting a business can either create a great lifestyle for them, means they can, you know, go and watch their kid in the school play in the afternoon because they can take their time off, go to, you know, do other things during the day.

And, you know, a friend of mine has just come back from America.

He started a business, took it to the States and has just come back, you know, a multimillionaire having sold it.

So he is now able to sort of basically set himself and his children up for a long time.

I think he will, knowing him, go again.

But, you know, there are significant financial rewards out there as well, if you're fortunate enough or if that's what you're on.

Rob Bell:
So if any listeners have got an idea and they're thinking that maybe they might jump off a cliff playing in their backpack, have you got one piece of pithy advice you might give them from your learnings and experience?

Tom Pellereau:
Apply for The Apprentice and win it.

That has been certainly the most amazing thing that's happened to me.

I don't know if I've got much more advice beyond that.

But I would genuinely encourage people, probably if you're under kind of 25, because it's a pretty brutal process to apply.

I genuinely would.

Rob Bell:
To The Apprentice?

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

Rob Bell:
Okay.

Yeah.

That's not what I was expecting, but I love it Tommy.

Tom Pellereau:
Jono?

Jono Hey:
I think it's really hard as sole founders, and I'm speaking to someone who's always joined when there's been a small core group.

I think I would always recommend that you find a co-founder or some support that you have, because I think if you are a lone founder, it's a really hard thing to do.

Like more than double the hard probably than if you have a co-founder or something.

So I think it's basically surround yourself with people who are going to be on that journey with you and going to be able to help you when it gets tough, and also you can celebrate and enjoy it with along the way.

Rob Bell:
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jono Hey:
I think that would be my advice.

If I was going to start something big by myself again, I'd be like, who can I do this with?

Who can join me along the way and help it when I'm struggling and trying to do stuff that I'm not good at?

I need somebody who's good at the stuff I'm not.

Let's go find a co-founder who can do that.

Rob Bell:
It goes both ways.

You can share the hardship of it, not only having to take on all the burden, but actually just have someone to offload to who knows what's going on in the similar light.

But equally have someone to share those successes with because a success on your own.

I mean, great, I did everything, well done me.

But great, that's it.

I just gave myself a pat on the back and it was nice, but that's done.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, that's really, really excellent advice, Jono.

My sister, Harriet, has just founded Mind Over Tech business with a co-founder, and they are co-CEO as well, I think.

So that's really, really working for her.

So excellent advice.

Rob Bell:
I was looking at the letters in co-CEO.

I thought it was Cocoa, not Co-CEO, it's almost, it almost is.

My one remaining question around this is, what if it's a helicopter that you've got the parts for in your backpack and not a plane?

Tom Pellereau:
I love the way that you have to stretch a metaphor.

Jono Hey:
Oh, I love it.

Rob Bell:
I absolutely love it.

It's become like a hobby, an obsession almost.

I'm going to move this completely differently.

How about drinking pints of beer, right?

It's like jumping off a bridge with a bungee cord wrapped around your ankles.

It's a massive thrill to begin with, with gradually decreasing return until you're left hanging, waiting for rescue, feeling confused and a bit sick.

Tom Pellereau:
How do you drink your beer?

Jono Hey:
What's going on?

I don't want to come to your nights out.

Rob Bell:
Aggressive.

Tom Pellereau:
Or not.

I don't know.

Rob Bell:
I don't know what was going on with that.

Jono Hey:
Whack a mole is a good one as well for businesses, you know.

You would like constantly problems popping up and you're whacking them down.

Firefighting.

Another one.

You're constantly firefighting.

God, there's so many.

You can only talk about these things in metaphors.

Rob Bell:
It's great because you've got a PhD in it, Jono.

Jono Hey:
That's true.

That's true.

Yeah.

At least don't start a company, jump off a cliff and assemble a train on the way down because that won't work.

Tom Pellereau:
That will definitely not work.

Rob Bell:
Figure that out.

Is there anything else anyone would like to add about their experiences surrounding this quote?

Tom Pellereau:
It's a great sketch.

Thank you.

It's a double-sided spread in Jono's book.

Jono Hey:
That is true.

And it has a boat shock to that this person falling down the cliff.

And it also has the plane actually flying up away at the end.

Of course, maybe some of them run out of fuel and slowly glide down to a safe landing, back to their families in their previous paid job.

Rob Bell:
Just not where they'd envisaged.

Yeah, exactly.

And ironically, one of them actually went back to becoming a pilot.

Jono Hey:
That's another way to do it.

Tom Pellereau:
It's a retrain as a pilot.

And actually, a big shout out to my uncle Jon, who has just sold his business, having built it up his whole life and he's sold it and he's retiring.

So it's done an amazing job during his life.

It's paid for his family.

And he's cashing in at the end.

So amazing.

Rob Bell:
Excellent.

Jono Hey:
Happy days.

And I was going to say one one thing is that Reid, this is widely quoted by Reid Hoffman.

Like he does definitely said this essentially.

But various people have said things like it along the way.

I mean, you know, right back to the leap in the net will appear, that kind of thing.

But Ray Bradbury is I think there was quite a good investigation into where do this come from, he actually said this and Ray Bradbury is an author.

And he talked about it kind of as an approach to life.

And it was quite, which is quite nice.

And his thing is like, if you're too cautious, you'll never do anything.

And so like someone asked like, has there ever been a time in your life when you've jumped and you haven't been able to build your wings in time?

And he called it wings.

And he's like, all of my life, I've jumped off the cliff and I've built my wings.

It works every single time.

It never fails.

And it's nice that I like it.

He's not just talking about a company.

He's like, life, if you don't do this, you're going to miss life.

You've got to jump off the cliff and build your wings on the way down.

It was where where he came from with it.

I think it was just quite nice.

Rob Bell:
I absolutely love it.

I absolutely love it.

I am motivated by that again.

Now, is that here?

Like, what am I going to do?

Unfortunately, we do as we've come up, we said in the podcast before, we record these quite late in the evening.

So, we're probably all just going to go to bed.

Jono Hey:
But what am I going to do now?

Rob Bell:
My God, I'm going to go to bed with so much vigor and determination to get to sleep.

It's going to be amazing.

Tom Pellereau:
Rob, there's possibly a couple of books that we could give links towards at the end.

Predictable Success, I think is great.

Rocket Fuel.

I'm sure Jono has got quite a long list of books as well.

He might recommend people to check out too.

Rob Bell:
I can link to those.

The one thing I'm really looking forward to linking to though is the Wallace and Gromit train track, because it basically means I'm just going to sit and watch Wallace and Gromit clips for a good half hour.

Jono Hey:
I'm not sure I've found the right one yet.

Rob Bell:
Oh, this is a good one.

No, I'm still going.

I'll put this one in as well as a little bonus.

Well, listen, there must be listeners who can relate to this experience of starting something and putting it out into the world, whether that is a business or some other kind of creation or production or venture, whatever it may be.

And I feel like we've spoken to a number of guests actually on the podcast series where this has come up in one shape or form as well.

And we would love to hear your stories, our listeners, how you feel this quote from Reid Hoffman aligns with you and your journey to whatever endeavor that may be.

Please get in touch and let us know.

You can email us on hello at sketchplanations.com or you can leave us a note or a voice note on the podcast website.

But as our flight on board, this plane begins its approach.

We can confirm that the landing gear is down, the flaps are engaged and we have radio confirmation that the runway is clear.

So please fold away your tray tables, fasten your seatbelts and don't be one of those idiots who jumps out of their seat before the captain confirms a rival at the gate.

Honestly.

Thank you for listening with us.

We wish you a very pleasant onward journey and hope to see you again soon.

Until next time, go well, stay well.

Goodbye.

All music on this podcast series is provided by the very talented Franc Cinelli.

And you can find many more tracks at franccinelli.com.