QUICKFIRE ROUND - Words and Language

Rob Bell:

Thank you Hello, it's Rob here.

 

And I've decided to come on at the beginning of this week's episode, just to say that this one is a little longer, quite a bit longer actually, than most of our previous podcasts.

 

Now it's another quick fire round, and I think we just enjoyed luxuriating and discussing a bit more all of the different sketches that we went through.

 

So what I'm going to suggest is that if you do feel like you could do with a break halfway through or whatever, maybe treat it as a part one and part two.

 

So maybe after listening to the Flotsam and Jetsam sketch discussion, or the one on contronyms, maybe give it a break, part one done, and come back to it at a later date, part two.

 

There you go, just a suggestion, here's the podcast.

 

Hello and welcome to Sketchplanations The Podcast.

 

In a move that's been described by the trusted podcast publication Get Your Ears Round This as possibly hasty, and by podcast gossip columnist Henry Headphones as a maverick maneuver, this week I've decided to dispense with the lengthy introduction and get straight on with the meat of this audible feast.

 

A feast that not only provides you with your five a day, but also has the protein, carbohydrate and unsaturated fat content for a robust and nutritious listening lifestyle.

 

It's all too easy to assume that simply balancing your audio intake with your audio output will help maintain a happy, healthy podcast listening.

 

But when you dig into the science, there's so much more to it.

 

It's not just about how much you put into your ears.

 

It's the quality of the ingredients that also matters.

 

And so before we tuck in to this bombastic banquet, a toast to my wholesome podcast companions, Jono Hey and Tom Pellereau.

 

Good evening, gentlemen.

 

I raise my microphone to you.

 

Jono Hey:

Same to you, Robert.

 

That's amazing.

 

Rob Bell:

What's been going on since we last met?

 

What were we talking about last week?

 

Jono Hey:

We were talking about the cost of being late.

 

Rob Bell:

Everyone was really on time today.

 

Jono Hey:

Well, never, never again will I be late.

 

Rob Bell:

It really took in.

 

Jono Hey:

Because I respect you guys.

 

Rob Bell:

Tommy, did you have you played cricket recently?

 

Did you have you played, had your cricket match?

 

Tom Pellereau:

I did.

 

Rob Bell:

Was it this weekend?

 

Tom Pellereau:

It was this weekend just gone.

 

And in tradition, I managed to run myself out trying to go for a highly optimistic run on the second to last ball.

 

And I got I got a wicket with what was described as an even slower, slower ball.

 

Rob Bell:

And even slower.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah.

 

It was good fun.

 

Rob Bell:

And Jono, did you have a I think I saw you had a swimming first this weekend?

 

Jono Hey:

Did Yeah, quite enjoy the open water swimming as we have done rather a lot together.

 

And yeah, this weekend took our 11 year olds and did 500 meters in the lake for his first.

 

Rob Bell:

It's not his first open water, but I guess it's his first kind of significant length.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, we've like dipped around in the sea or whatever for a bit, but actually gone proper.

 

And it was a hot day.

 

It was absolutely lovely.

 

Rob Bell:

And he nailed it.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

How cool.

 

Jono Hey:

Really nice.

 

Rob Bell:

I like that.

 

Jono Hey:

I enjoyed it.

 

Rob Bell:

I like that guys.

 

I like that.

 

No kind of exceptional sporting endeavours for me, sadly.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

 

Next week.

 

Rob Bell:

Next week.

 

Next week.

 

There's always next week.

 

Jono Hey:

Fresh start tomorrow.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

I used a metaphor there in my introduction and I wrote it and then I thought I really like metaphors and I've liked them ever since I first learned what one was probably like year seven or year eight English lessons.

 

Jono Hey:

I never metaphor I didn't like.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, now we're firing.

 

Sorry about that.

 

I really like them.

 

I really like them.

 

I really like using them and writing them.

 

I like it when I hear them or notice them in like sports commentary.

 

They pop up every now and then.

 

Comedy articles, you often kind of read them in newspaper or magazine articles.

 

I really enjoy a good metaphor.

 

Jono Hey:

Well, I actually studied metaphors as part of my design PhD.

 

Did you?

 

I looked at all sorts of interesting aspects because metaphors shape the way we think.

 

So I was interested in things like metaphors for ideas.

 

For example, an interesting trait about actually, you talked about this banquet, right?

 

So ideas of food is a common metaphor.

 

And so a big idea to absorb is, I'm going to have to chew on that for a bit.

 

You need to take a bit of time to digest that idea.

 

Whereas you could give little snacks, like little ones.

 

So ideas of food is one thing, but there's a problem with ideas of products, ideas of all sorts of physical things.

 

But if I give you an idea, I've still got the idea.

 

So the whole thing breaks down the way we talk about ideas.

 

Yeah, metaphors, really interesting.

 

Rob Bell:

Tom, what's your relationship with metaphors and linguistic devices?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Well, like yourself, I'm very visual in my thinking.

 

And I think it's quite easy to get trapped into certain metaphors.

 

And sometimes it's kind of an aspect, you know, like Jono said, you can't share an idea, you've still got an idea.

 

So you need other metaphors and other framings.

 

And I do remember reading your PhD thesis, Jono, on framing.

 

It was really fascinating.

 

We absorbed quite a lot of that into how we developed our ideas.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, well, that's awesome.

 

Interesting.

 

A metaphor is really good for Sketchplanations as well.

 

And so, I mean, you know, not long ago, we talked about front stage, backstage, right?

 

It's a metaphor for a way to understand our behaviour.

 

And there's so many, you know, accountability ladder is a way to understand it.

 

You have like, what's it, Maslow's Hierarchy.

 

So you have all these abstract things and you put them in an order.

 

And all of a sudden, it's clarifying, you know, that clarifying is another example of knowing is seeing.

 

And making making stuff clearer helps you know it better, fascinating stuff.

 

Rob Bell:

I think what I really, really enjoy, it's often comes up in comedy stand up routines is when the comedian has purposefully taken that metaphor too far.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

I really, really enjoy that.

 

And they know what they're doing.

 

Jono Hey:

I think you had people hovering by the accountability ladder not long ago.

 

Pushing people up and down it.

 

Always fun to extend the metaphor, mix them up as well.

 

Tom Pellereau:

The cherry picker on the side.

 

Rob Bell:

Oh, all good fun.

 

All good fun.

 

Well, listen guys, I'm going to suggest that we get a shift on with the podcast in earnest because this week is another quick fire bumper pack episode, and there's no time to lose.

 

This week, we're going to cover as many of Jono's sketches as appropriate for an easy listening podcast related to words.

 

We're talking vocabulary, definitions, maybe a bit of grammar.

 

Now, I've not been able to find a way of getting the artwork for this episode to change continuously as we go through all the different words and sketches.

 

So I'll pick one as the main event, and then I'll make sure that I include links in the podcast description to all the other sketches in the order that we go through them.

 

So you can just kind of click through and see what we're talking about as we go from one sketch to another.

 

And I've certainly found in the past that visualizing some of Jono's sketches really helps me learn stuff and cement that in my brain.

 

So I would recommend using those links to bring up the sketches on the screens as we talk about them, if possible.

 

Obviously, if you're driving, please don't.

 

And finally, a reminder that we'll be going through your correspondence since the last episode at the very end of the podcast.

 

Right then, Jono, do you want to kick us off with the first sketch related to words, generally, that you've selected?

 

We've each selected a few.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I'd be delighted to.

 

It's funny, isn't it?

 

There's a lot of sketches about words, actually.

 

Which is a strange thing to draw.

 

Rob Bell:

It was great.

 

It was lovely to have a good flick through them all.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

What are you going with?

 

Jono Hey:

I'll start with the really easy one.

 

It's one of my favorite ones.

 

I actually have it up on the wall.

 

It's called Caffe-Coc.

 

Caffe-Coc, which is a word from the Sami people of Northern Norway, Finland, or Sweden.

 

And it means the distance you can go before you need a cup of coffee.

 

Which comes up a lot on weekends and when we pop out somewhere.

 

And in fact, because it's up on the wall, my kids will ask me, how far have we gone now?

 

Is it one Caffe-Coc yet, dad?

 

We need to go to the cafe.

 

And I'm like, yes, one Caffe-Coc.

 

Quite a long time ago actually.

 

Yeah, maybe three Caffe-Cocs into this walk.

 

Rob Bell:

And it's specifically, what I like about it, is it's specifically like, you know, it's fairly arbitrary, but is it a distance as opposed to a unit of time?

 

It's a unit of distance.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's a distance, yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

That's nice.

 

Jono Hey:

Which, you know, one's Caffe-Coc might be a different language than somebody else's Caffe-Coc.

 

Well, I guess, depending on the day.

 

Rob Bell:

And what's lovely about the visualization of this, as I was just talking about in the sketch, your sketch brings that to life, all right?

 

So it's, and you talked about it there, Jono, you've left home, you're in the car, maybe, I don't know, you're off on holiday or something, or, you know, you maybe had a coffee with you, or maybe it's time, if it's really early in the morning, to just pull over at the service station and get yourself a coffee.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I guess the cafe got in a car is quite a bit further, isn't it?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, the sketch has a person in the waist, a bit like a hoth, the planet hoth or something, in the snow, making a coffee, and then moonwalking his way, and then going, yeah, I think it's time for a coffee again.

 

One cafe got laid.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, to me, it looks like you're on the North Pole or something, and the reality is, for most of us, a cafe cough is just like down the high street, you know, it's like, actually managed to get the kids out on a Saturday morning, so it must be time for another coffee.

 

You've strolled 500 meters to get to the town centre, sort of thing.

 

Jono Hey:

I always like, was it one of the episodes of Peppa Pig, the dad's favourite room in the museum is the coffee shop.

 

Which was pretty standard.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

I mean, it's basically what the National Trust is built on, isn't it?

 

Anyway, Coffee and Coke, it's a good word.

 

Rob Bell:

I'm glad we've clarified this actually, because when I first saw it, I thought it was about your first coffee, but it's not, is it?

 

It's before needing another cup of coffee, whether that's your first or the next one, whatever it might be.

 

Jono Hey:

Does it get longer after each coffee?

 

It's just difficult to say.

 

Different for everyone.

 

Rob Bell:

Great, I love that.

 

And the beauty of that, which I really love, is, as you say, from the Sami people from right up in the north of Scandinavia.

 

Yeah, lovely.

 

Lovely, thanks, Jono.

 

Right, well, let's move on, as we're gonna get through a fair few of these, hopefully.

 

Tommy, what have you got for your first pitch?

 

Tom Pellereau:

So I've got one that I actually only realised about three weeks ago when doing spelling with my kids.

 

And it's about the verb noun, advice versus advice, advice versus advice, and the verb having an S, and the noun having a C.

 

And it wasn't actually until we were doing a load of spellings, I was going down, going, hang on, I don't, what, and it blew my mind.

 

So, you know, device, devise, device, I'm gonna really make a mess of this.

 

Jono, can you explain this one for us?

 

But it's a really good one.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, well, yeah, basically any of these words, like devise, advise, license, practice, in British English, at any rate, the verb has an S, but the noun, device, advice, license and practice has a C.

 

So you can sort of remember them that way.

 

So, I mean, for me, it was always license and license.

 

It's actually a bit confusing because in the US, they just use the S form for that.

 

But in the UK, you can license somebody and you're driving the license that you go back has got a C in it.

 

Just like, I mean, the easiest one to remember is like advise and advice.

 

You're like, those are sort of driven in, but actually it's a pattern generally across all of these types of words.

 

Yeah, I know, the same.

 

I just wanted to clear that up for myself, which is always the genesis of the sketch.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And thank you for putting the little American flag next to the ones where it's used in both or not as you are.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, it confuses things otherwise.

 

But in British English at any rate, it's quite consistent.

 

The verb is the S and the noun is the C.

 

So if you're checking your kid's spelling, you can use that as a plan.

 

Rob Bell:

Check yourself first.

 

Yeah.

 

You said something there, Jono, which you've said a few times over the past few weeks of podcasting in that you've made these, it's come up a few times where you've done a sketch to clarify it for yourself.

 

That was your main driver for it.

 

I like that.

 

I like that because it reassures me.

 

Yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

I mean, yeah, often a lot of them are like that.

 

It's a bit like that.

 

I did a sketch not too long ago called Ask the Question at Talks, which is basically like if you're sat there at a talk and you don't know what something is that they're talking about, you should ask it because it probably means lots of other people are asking.

 

So that's sort of my model I operate on is like, if I don't really know whether it should be a license with an S or a C, there's probably a lot of other people who are in that situation.

 

So I should go figure it out and explain it.

 

So there you go.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Which one would you use, Tommy, there as your kind of anchor point?

 

Tom Pellereau:

A phone being a device with a C.

 

Rob Bell:

Device.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Is definitely one that really works for me and I can probably then almost work everything else out from there.

 

Jono Hey:

I remember seeing an example, James Bond was licensed with a license to kill.

 

And that was the first one has got an S in UK English and the second one's got a C, even though you say them exactly the same.

 

Rob Bell:

He was licensed with a license to kill.

 

Yeah.

 

Which in America would be both S's.

 

Jono Hey:

It would.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Oh, the poor copyright, you had to check that.

 

I wonder how many debates they had.

 

My next one, affect and effect, is potentially very linked to advice and advise.

 

Rob Bell:

Go on, let's bring this up.

 

Just so listeners know, we're flicking between a lot of screens at the moment as we bring up sketches each time.

 

Just so if you hear kind of clicking going on.

 

So affect and effect.

 

Go on, Tommy.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Which?

 

Rob Bell:

What do you want to say about this?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Oh my god, which first of all, I have never in my life understood.

 

And I've now really focused on Jono's very excellent picture.

 

Possibly one of your earliest ones.

 

It says 51.

 

So this would have been in your first like 12 months, wouldn't it?

 

And if Jono explain, I'm going to make a mess of it.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, you know what?

 

This is one where I like the sketch.

 

It's super simple and it works for me.

 

However, I consider it a failed sketch because I have shared it with a number of people and they still struggle with it.

 

So I've also seen somebody like Wholesale copy this for some other article that they were doing.

 

But anyway, the idea is it's a bit similar, as you say Tom, affect is a verb.

 

So you affect something.

 

Tom Pellereau:

You do it to someone else.

 

So this person is pushing to something else.

 

So Jono is pushing Rob into the lake is what's happening on the left.

 

Jono Hey:

Right, and the effect of me pushing Rob into the lake is that he fell in and there was a big splash.

 

And so that's what the two pictures are.

 

Somebody pushing, that's the affect.

 

And then somebody falling in is the effect.

 

And yet, yeah, people struggle.

 

People struggle with this one.

 

Rob Bell:

It's really funny and we'll come on to it because we've got lots of things like this.

 

This is one, cause I do struggle with some of these.

 

But this is one that I don't struggle with for some reason.

 

For some reason, whenever I learned to it, it just kind of lodged itself nicely and neatly.

 

Tom Pellereau:

How do you remember it?

 

Rob Bell:

Tetris, 3D Tetris.

 

I don't really need to, I just kind of know.

 

It's one of those things that I just kind of...

 

Tom Pellereau:

Do you know what?

 

Rob Bell:

It just settled in nicely in the brain.

 

Jono Hey:

I read today, if you need a way, Tom, this might help.

 

There's somebody who says the acronym RAVEN is remember affect is a verb, effect is a noun.

 

Rob Bell:

Is that going to help you, Tom?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Well, I'm not sure I was there in the English class about nouns and verbs, which I really struggle with with the kids.

 

But I'm going to remember it as the person pushing is affecting and he's an asshole.

 

So...

 

Jono Hey:

That's good.

 

That is good.

 

Tom Pellereau:

The person who's been affected, who's in the water, who's pushing around is an Egypt for being pushed in.

 

Rob Bell:

Oh, come on.

 

Right, I really, really want this to work for you, Tommy.

 

Can we, can I randomly and as a surprise, test you on that in a couple of weeks' time without you knowing.

 

And I want you to explain it, why you know you've got it the right way around.

 

Yeah, have you got that locked in?

 

Tom Pellereau:

I have to do some more English lessons on the noun.

 

Oh gosh, it's just embarrassing.

 

Rob Bell:

But then you can think of the sketch and the pushing and the asshole in Egypt.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I can do that.

 

Good, thank you.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, brilliant, excellent.

 

Well done, mate.

 

Tom Pellereau:

There's another couple there.

 

This podcast is just self-help for Tommy, really, isn't it?

 

Jono Hey:

It was all designed for you.

 

Let's do a grammar test.

 

Spelling.

 

Rob Bell:

We've got foreign languages coming up in a couple of weeks, haven't we?

 

French specifically.

 

We all know your feelings about learning French.

 

I was going to say the French, but I meant French.

 

No, not at all.

 

Jono Hey:

Rob, what have you got?

 

Rob Bell:

Okay, so my first one, thank you, Joe.

 

Pleonasm.

 

Yeah, a pleonasm.

 

I've never heard of this word.

 

So a pleonasm is an overabundance of words.

 

It's the use of redundant words in a sentence, and you mentioned this here in your sketch, Jono, often used in phrases or idioms.

 

And there are quite a few different types of pleonasms because I started looking into it and it does get quite deep into grammar.

 

And I started to get a bit confused.

 

So I've tried to bring it back up a level, but it is the kind of the use, maybe sometimes the repetition of words with the same meaning in a phrase or in a sentence, or sometimes it's words that just aren't required to say what you want to say.

 

There are just an abundance of words in there.

 

Jono Hey:

Give us some examples.

 

Rob Bell:

So an example.

 

So the one example that comes to me that I hear quite a lot that annoys me is pre-prepare.

 

Have you pre-prepared for the meeting?

 

What?

 

It's not prepared.

 

On your sketch, and I love the sketch, because you've managed to bring in these very common pleonasms, Jono, into one scene, which I really, really love.

 

So if you are listening, head log in and check out the pleonasm sketch.

 

So you've got, so another example is an unexpected surprise.

 

Or an exact replica, a personal friend, or a free gift.

 

You don't need both of those words.

 

It's an overabundance.

 

There's another one that I saw as an example is to kick it with your feet, that's what I was going to kick it with.

 

Sometimes I hear people say, I myself think that the grass should be shorter.

 

Or personally, I think that the sky is blue.

 

And then this one was interesting, tuna fish, tuna fish.

 

You don't need the fish.

 

An added bonus, regular routine, there's loads.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's like, well, it's just not just fish.

 

Rob Bell:

You don't need those.

 

And then there are some, so some that are established in phrases and idioms, as you mentioned, Jono, things like terms and conditions.

 

Another one's null and void.

 

If something's null and void, you don't need both of that.

 

And there are also repetitions in some abbreviations.

 

So a PIN number, or an ATM machine, or finally an LCD display.

 

Jono Hey:

Liquid crystal display display.

 

Rob Bell:

We use all the time.

 

It's just common parlance, but it's just extra words.

 

You don't need them.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I was just looking at some of the examples in the description from the sketch.

 

It's quite good ones.

 

It's from George Carlin.

 

Rob Bell:

This is good.

 

Your caption for this is excellent.

 

It's worth a read.

 

Jono Hey:

And we do say these ones.

 

So past history, my future plans, overexaggerating, new beginning, end result.

 

I mean, there's just loads, isn't there?

 

It seems to be past experience.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Very popular in kind of speeches or in sort of political, like I immediately think of Boris Johnson in this respect.

 

Like he would, he wouldn't be there.

 

He'd have three things when he, every single word he'd say, sort of triple embellish it almost.

 

Rob Bell:

I can picture that.

 

I can definitely picture that.

 

Yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

Sim total.

 

Rob Bell:

There's so many, aren't there?

 

There's so many.

 

But yes, if, always worth getting along, having a little look at the sketch.

 

But yeah, that passage that you popped up there from, was it comedian, George Carlin, Jono is excellent.

 

It's worth a read.

 

It really kind of hammers home the point that we're talking about.

 

So a pleonasm, there you go.

 

That was a new word for me.

 

Thank you, Jono.

 

We're gonna come, let's circle around back to you.

 

Jono Hey:

So I'll do a really simple one and it's another really old one.

 

And it's just a little point that I just really like.

 

So it's actually about amateur and professional.

 

And it's just, there's not really much in the sketch, but it was something I realized as I was reading a book by Clay Shirky, which is I think often that you think of the professionals as like the people who are the legitimate and really good at things.

 

And amateur is sort of also means that you're not really good at stuff.

 

You're not as good as the professionals.

 

You're not as worthy of it as the professionals.

 

But what the point was with the amateur, actually as a word comes from the Latin amare, to love.

 

And in fact, amateur is a lover.

 

And so amateur, the root of the word is that somebody loves what they're doing.

 

And I really like it that actually an amateur is not somebody who's worse.

 

You're actually doing it for the love of it, rather than for the extrinsic reward, the pay of it.

 

And so that was the amateur is like, you're driven by an intrinsic reward, something that you get benefit from doing this activity.

 

Even if nobody's paying you in professional, you're doing it for the extrinsic reward and you might not do it if that went away.

 

And so actually, I sort of reframed amateur to me, instead of it being like worse than professional, it's like just as good, if not better in many ways.

 

I love it.

 

Rob Bell:

I'm gonna pick up on that.

 

Yeah, I really like that.

 

Now, you've explained that really well Jono.

 

So now amateur, because sometimes I find it difficult to describe, not difficult, but sometimes I'll use words which I'm not that happy with when talking about things I like doing in my spare time.

 

So what's that?

 

Is that your hobby?

 

Is it a pastime?

 

So am I a hobbyist?

 

Am I like a woodworking enthusiast?

 

No, I'm a woodworking amateur.

 

I think that perfectly describes what I want to say about it.

 

Jono Hey:

Doing it for the love of it, for the sake of doing the activity itself.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And almost you could say you're a woodworking amour of it.

 

You love it.

 

You're a lover of it.

 

Right.

 

Rob Bell:

Absolutely.

 

Tom Pellereau:

For me, amateur is like, almost like derogatory.

 

You'd say, oh my God, what an amateur.

 

If someone makes a mess on the first tee of a golf, like if we're out with someone and they spank it into the woods, you're like, what an amateur.

 

You know, it's a really unfair use of it.

 

And Jono, this is lovely for the amour of it, for the love of it.

 

Much better.

 

Rob Bell:

When you talk about golf, I mean, pro-am is professionals, a pro-am tournament is professionals and amateurs playing together, right?

 

Maybe that would have been an idea for a sketch.

 

Let me see, would that work?

 

Jono Hey:

Probably not.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It would be nice.

 

Jono Hey:

It's tough for the amateurs though, isn't it?

 

Because, you know, for the professionals, it's their day job.

 

Get to spend a lot more time doing it.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

I like that.

 

That's really clarified.

 

I mean, the danger is that I start using it in the context of its true meaning, but the way it's taken is in the context of how it's now been understood.

 

Jono Hey:

People may not understand it that way.

 

Tom Pellereau:

We can bring it back.

 

Jono Hey:

You can still feel good.

 

You can use it for the amour of it.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, let's start a campaign to bring amateur back in its true sense now on this podcast.

 

Nice one, Jono.

 

That's really lovely.

 

Okay, Tommy, let's swing it back around to you.

 

What you got?

 

Tom Pellereau:

So the next one is a word that I cannot pronounce.

 

And the second word is victory.

 

Victory nearly as costly as defeat.

 

Jono, what's-

 

Jono Hey:

A pyrrhic victory.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Pyrrhic, pyrrhic victory.

 

So victory is nearly as costly.

 

Well done on victories, sir.

 

If we are victorious in one but more battles, we shall be ruined.

 

And it does feel a little bit like Ukraine has turned into a bit of a pyrrhic victory potentially for almost all parties involved.

 

And it does worry me a little bit in the fact that you've got the Russians, the Ukrainians, the Americans, the West.

 

And I'm very, very concerned about a potential pyrrhic victory in Taiwan one day with what's the sort of global movement.

 

So it's a little bit front of mind, but I think it's something you've got to be aware of in many circumstances.

 

Sometimes you get into an argument and it becomes like a pyrrhic victory.

 

You might sort of maybe win the argument.

 

I don't think there's any winners out of any argument really, but often it costs you a lot more to win an argument than it does to have even taken part.

 

And in business, it can be kind of pyrrhic victories as well.

 

So it's a really cool word.

 

Where does it come from, Jono?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, no, it's got a nice story behind it.

 

I mean, I heard the term, and this was a suggestion from somebody actually, but it's actually from King Pyrrhus of Epirus back in 279 BC.

 

And he was a sort of elite general, and he got called over to take on some battles, and he had these elite troops, and basically they won a bunch of battles, but they lost so many people in the battles that he wondered whether or not the whole thing was worth it.

 

And so that goes with the story, apparently.

 

He's like, if we're victorious one more time, we'll be ruined.

 

So you won, but actually the losses are so big as to be like, well, that wasn't really a win.

 

And I think a great example is in business.

 

Like imagine you keep lowering your prices, and you win, somebody else goes out of business, but actually you now don't have a proper business either, for example, so yeah, lots of applications of Pyrrhic victories and definitely worth avoiding.

 

Rob Bell:

Is it the same as cutting off your nose to spite your face?

 

Is that, it's similar kind of realm, isn't it, as an idiom?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Or maybe even a hollow victory, because there's nothing inside that you've won.

 

Jono Hey:

I guess for King Pyrrhus, obviously you didn't mean to lose so many rather than the cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

Like, one of the examples I mentioned was about, you finally forced the family to get out of the house and go somewhere and everybody's in such a mood that nobody's having a good time anymore.

 

And you're like, well, that was not really worth it.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Pyrrhic victory, that's a nice user case.

 

Jono Hey:

Love that.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And you yell at kids to get them out to have fun, and no one has any fun because you yelled at everyone.

 

Rob Bell:

We're having fun now.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I feel like we get a really lovely insight to your boys weekends here.

 

Rob Bell:

There's often recurring themes about the challenge of getting everyone out of the house.

 

Pyrrhic victory, again in the sketch on this one is an absolute stunner.

 

It's fantastic.

 

Yeah, it's one of those with a really excellent backdrop as well, which is a gory battlefield.

 

Yeah, but you've used red sparingly, but in a way that really makes your point.

 

Tom Pellereau:

There's even a dead elephant in the foreground.

 

Rob Bell:

We might be having a rest.

 

Jono Hey:

On top of the field.

 

Rob Bell:

There's definitely someone squashed under him.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, there is.

 

Rob Bell:

Oh, I just noticed this guy.

 

There's this guy right at the bottom.

 

He thought he'd climbed up the rocks to save him.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And dumped in the back.

 

Jono Hey:

Just keep on doing.

 

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

Well worth a look at that sketch, listeners.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Well worth a look.

 

Rob Bell:

Okay, I'm going to move us on to two words.

 

I think I've only ever heard them used together.

 

Flotsam and Jetsam.

 

So here we're talking about them.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It just makes me think it sounds like...

 

Rob Bell:

Not the Jetsams.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It sort of sounds like some kind of 70s band, doesn't it?

 

Flotsam and Jetsam.

 

Would you say that's...

 

Jono Hey:

More convincing.

 

Rob Bell:

I've heard the phrase quite a little bit, but there's a cafe not too far from me called Flotsam and Jetsam, which then when your sketch came out about it, Jono, I was like, yeah, yeah, okay, now I get it.

 

So let me tell you...

 

Jono Hey:

Have you shared the sketch with them?

 

It's not clear that everyone...

 

They'll likely know the difference.

 

Rob Bell:

With the cafe?

 

Yeah, they should pop it on all their mugs.

 

Thanks for that.

 

Jono Hey:

What do you want?

 

Rob Bell:

So again, this is a really lovely sketch because there's quite a bit of colour in it which really draws the eye.

 

So it sets out the difference between these two words, Flotsam and Jetsam, from the marine, the world of being out at sea, right?

 

So Flotsam describes floating debris that's accidentally lost from a ship if it maybe lists them onside or if it's grounded or it sinks or whatever.

 

So it's items or articles from that ship that then float off accidentally because of an accident.

 

What a bit of pleonism.

 

And Jetsam are items that have been deliberately jettisoned.

 

They have been deliberately thrown off of a ship or a vessel at sea, maybe because they're sinking, or maybe they need to help their weight distribution or something like that.

 

So Flotsam and Jetsam, both bits and bobs floating around in the sea, which sometimes and often get recovered, but under very different circumstances, shall we say.

 

And looking into this, I read that since the 1300s, there are principles that govern items and ownership and the recovery of items that are lost at sea.

 

And it's different between Flotsam and Jetsam.

 

Flotsam, if you find a bit of Flotsam, i.e.

 

something that's accidentally been lost from a ship, if you find that washed up on the beach, legally, the original owner still has a claim over that.

 

Whereas Jetsam, if you find it, that's yours.

 

You can keep that.

 

That's right, isn't it, Jono?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, that's right.

 

They have a difference.

 

I mean, yeah, people just say Flotsam and Jetsam.

 

It's just stuff that washed up, but actually, under law, they're different things.

 

Basically, Jetsam you can keep and Flotsam, if you find it and somebody else hears about it, it's actually still theirs.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, so then I started reading into this a bit further.

 

You can find it for safekeeping, right?

 

Because it's located up on the beach.

 

You can find it for safekeeping, but you're supposed to look after it and register it with the authorities as the fact that you've got this and that you're looking after it.

 

If you are found to have flotsam, then you can be fined a significant whack.

 

Actually, you know the book Where the Whales Came?

 

About the Siliars.

 

There's quite a little bit about flotsam and jetsam around that.

 

And that when this is, it's flotsam that happens there and all this stuff gets washed up.

 

But because they're islanders, and the resources that they have are limited and quite rare, I guess, sometimes depending on what the flotsam is.

 

But the whole island comes out and they gather it all and it all just disappears really, really quickly.

 

Yeah, that's really funny.

 

And there was a shipwreck, or at least it came aground, or at least big containers fell off.

 

It was called the Napoli.

 

I'm trying to find it here in my notes.

 

MSC Napoli.

 

It was a ship off of Dorset Coast in 2007, January 2007, there were some containers fell off of it in rough seas in the Channel, and they flowed to the shore, and those beaches were just being raided for a couple of days.

 

And there were news footage, I don't know if you remember, I certainly remember it, news footage of people wheeling brand new, I think they were BMW motorbikes up the beach.

 

And great big barrels of wine and perfume, and all this, pampers, there were nappies, great big boxes and containers of nappies.

 

People were just going out and helping themselves.

 

But that was flotsam.

 

So what was happening there wasn't legal, if indeed they kept it.

 

Jono Hey:

Right, that BMW bike could have been reclaimed.

 

Rob Bell:

It could have been reclaimed.

 

So whoever took it off could have done it for safekeeping.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And that's what they were doing.

 

Rob Bell:

And could have registered it with the authorities, I'm sure.

 

I think one of those BMWs ended up as an art installation down on the beach, like in a Perspex box or something like that.

 

I'm not sure if it's still there, but it certainly did happen.

 

Anyway, so that's one there, Flotsam and Jetsam, the difference of it.

 

Because I think it can also be used as a phrase for kind of bits and bobs.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It should be called Axi-Som and Jetsam, shouldn't it?

 

Because it's accidental.

 

Well, it's Flotsam.

 

They're both floating, but one's accidental and one's Jetsam.

 

So I'll-

 

Rob Bell:

Well, that is true.

 

That is the easy way that I would remember it.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Axi-Sam.

 

Axi-Sam.

 

Rob Bell:

Axi-Sam.

 

So Jetsam, Jetsam definitely comes from Jettison.

 

Jono Hey:

I love the way you-

 

Rob Bell:

Jono talks about this in the sketch.

 

Flotsam, Flot comes from Flotter to float.

 

Tom Pellereau:

But they're both floating.

 

Rob Bell:

Accidentally lost.

 

Yeah, I know.

 

So in which case, I would, my way would be Jetsam, Jettisoned, and then you work back from there.

 

It's not that hard.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Or it flotted off the edge.

 

Flotted.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, it just flotted off the edge.

 

Jono Hey:

I'd like to put a little point about the rubber duck that's in the sketch.

 

Rob Bell:

You did, yeah, tell that story if you remember it.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, it's just, there was a, back in 1992, there was basically a ship that lost thousands upon thousands of rubber ducks, the bright yellow little ducks in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

 

And over the, and of course they do float around.

 

And over the next 25 years, they basically revealed all of the ocean's currents and they were still washing up in incredible places 25 years later.

 

Rob Bell:

All over the world.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

 

Just, yeah, should have put little sensors in there or something.

 

Rob Bell:

Brilliant.

 

There you go, so that was my second one, Flotsam and Jetsam.

 

Where are we?

 

Jono, let's come back around to you.

 

How are we doing?

 

Yeah, I reckon we've got one more round each, if you guys are good with that.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, for my next one, I will go with contrenim.

 

Contrenim, I don't know if you ever heard of that, but a contrenim is a really cool little word, and there's not that many of them.

 

There's probably about 100 or so.

 

And a contrenim is a word that can be its own opposite.

 

And they're quite hard to recognize even.

 

So the example I have in the thing is somebody thinking, hmm, we're in a fix.

 

And then somebody else is gonna say, well, I'll fix it.

 

And so there you've got fix, which both means a situation you're stuck in and the means of getting unstuck.

 

And so a contrenim is literally a word that means completely the opposite thing.

 

And so, and I put in the description, I learned it.

 

You should all go read this article.

 

It's a really good article called, what part of no totally don't you understand?

 

And the whole article is about how when somebody says no, totally, that actually means yes.

 

And how on earth it came around the language that no totally means yes.

 

Rob Bell:

Have you linked to that article?

 

You have, haven't you?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, if you follow the sketch, it's really good.

 

And so that's where I learned about contrenim.

 

Because no doesn't mean yes, but if you have like no totally or no exactly or something like that, then it does mean yes.

 

But anyway, so I'll give you some other examples of contrenim.

 

So we have, you can seed.

 

So if you, you can seed a field, which means putting the seeds out on a field, but you can also seed a grape, which means taking the seeds out of the grape.

 

You can alight from a horse and a butterfly can alight onto a flower.

 

So you get off and you get on with alighting.

 

Rob Bell:

I didn't know that one about the second use of alight.

 

Okay.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, you can clip something.

 

So clipping can mean cutting something in two, or it can mean you can use a clip to clip stuff together.

 

You can dust.

 

So dust used to be a noun a long time ago only.

 

And then at some point it also became a verb, a thing that you do.

 

And so you can remove dust or I can dust something with flour.

 

And it's like I'm out of that adding dust or when I'm dusting, I'm taking away dust.

 

Yeah.

 

And there's a few other ones.

 

The no totally for actually, for example, comes from, there were different reasons why words become contrims, but no totally came from something called amelioration, which is where you had a word and it sort of got a better sense to it, which you have with something, even when you call something like, I don't know, when wicked was popular, or if you say, oh, man, he's really bad, or that's wicked.

 

It meant a bad thing and it becomes to mean a good thing over time.

 

So anyway, yeah, I really like it.

 

There's a bunch of other little examples of contrims, but a limited selection of words that can be their own opposites.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I wonder if this happens much in German.

 

You know, we're having a chat on what to have about German words and how there's so many more of them and they have so much more meaning in a lot of them.

 

It just sort of, I wonder if it happens much in German because it feels like this is just a ridiculousness of English and our culture and how we just bafflingly use words.

 

Rob Bell:

It's kind of a spongy language, isn't it?

 

And you can stretch it and peel it and mold it how you like.

 

Jono Hey:

I mean, yeah, it is really confusing if you say you like dust the work surface.

 

I mean, what do you want me to do?

 

Yeah, dust on it.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, there's one.

 

Yeah, so dust the work surface.

 

I mean, literally.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, literally getting dust.

 

Rob Bell:

When you are making bread.

 

You do.

 

They'll say dust your work surface with flour.

 

Jono Hey:

Sorry, that was what I was trying to explain earlier, but exactly, yeah.

 

Yeah, you dust something with flour or you dust it away.

 

Rob Bell:

That's interesting that it used to only be a noun and now it's a verb as well.

 

Jono Hey:

Well, I learned that from Catherine Schultz's excellent article, What Part of NATO You Think You Understand.

 

Rob Bell:

Google's another one, isn't it?

 

So Google's become a verb now.

 

To Google something.

 

Jono Hey:

Verbing, verbing is really good.

 

That's a really nice Calvin and Hobbes, do you remember that one?

 

Verbing weirds language.

 

Rob Bell:

Verbing weirds language.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

That's a nice one.

 

So that's contronyms.

 

Jono Hey:

Contronyms.

 

Rob Bell:

Contronyms.

 

And there are loads of other great sketches, by the way, as well, people, about synonyms, contronyms.

 

What others are there?

 

Heteronyms?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I just give, if we don't have time to cover them tonight, I really like heteronyms.

 

And I actually did like a little two by two of words that either written the same or said the same or written the same and said different or written different but said the same.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, it's a little two by two matrix.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, and each one of them has their own names and consonants as this curious one that doesn't really fit in because they just mean the opposite.

 

It's crazy.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, yeah, nice.

 

It's nice.

 

Great, let's move along.

 

Tommy, where are you taking us?

 

Tom Pellereau:

NATO phonetic alphabet.

 

Avoiding letter confusion.

 

And I bring this up because my name is Pellereau, but basically every single time I'm trying to book anything on the phone, I go, you know, what's your name, sir?

 

I'm Tom Pellereau.

 

And I don't even bother letting them say it's like, yeah, Papa, Echo, Lima, Lima, Echo, Romeo, Echo, Alpha, Uniform.

 

Like that.

 

And when I got married to Sarah, some of the other members of my family, they drew it on a whiteboard for her because now she was a Pellereau.

 

And this is because she was Sarah Fawkes.

 

It's all very easy.

 

Like actually, most of the time I book a restaurant, I say, I'm Tom Bell, dingerling, because it's just easier.

 

But when I actually have to...

 

Johnny, do you remember when we were in, was it Chile and we tried to book a flight on the phone, you booked it for me in Spanish and all the vowels in my name, we got there, we picked up the ticket and it was the most bafflingly incredible spelling ever.

 

Jono Hey:

Sorry about that.

 

Do you know, actually, I think Spanish is where I really learned this sort of, I don't know, necessity of this because there's a lot of Vs, Bs and Ps sounds and it's so that they all sound the same.

 

That was the example I gave in the sketch, like imagine if your code for your plane was YIVBT, VBDT.

 

They all, Vs, Bs and Ps, you just can't really tell what they are, yeah.

 

So I guess that's why you need this.

 

Rob Bell:

Are you fans of it?

 

Do you like using it on the phone?

 

Do you like when other people use it?

 

I mean, obviously I'm not giving away my opinion on that.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Well, your name's Rob Bell, so it doesn't come up very often.

 

Rob Bell:

But when you're called Pellereau.

 

Tom Pellereau:

How else am I supposed to explain?

 

Because quite often they say, so I go Tom Pellereau and they go T-O-M, okay, T-E.

 

I'm like, we're on the first letter.

 

We can't even get the first letter.

 

P for papa.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, I understand, yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

I have to say, I can't really remember all the phonetic alphabet.

 

This is another one where part of the reason for doing the sketch was for me to like sit down and learn it properly.

 

Rob Bell:

Oh yeah, and have you?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I don't know.

 

I'm a little bit, I tend to just make up words.

 

I can't remember the actual NATO phonetic alphabet.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Oh, sorry, I don't either.

 

I know one or the right name in phonetics.

 

Rob Bell:

You know your words.

 

Tom Pellereau:

But also you end up just making some of them up sometimes.

 

And sometimes you make them up with ones that actually aren't very useful.

 

Because some words are actually still quite difficult to distinguish between.

 

Rob Bell:

So I'm not sure whether it's, that there are two different phonetic alphab, well, at least two.

 

You've been very specific here, Jono.

 

This is the NATO phonetic alphabet.

 

Are there others, because I know one difference between them is for the letter I and it's indigo instead of India.

 

Do you know?

 

Jono Hey:

There are lots and there've been lots of different versions of them.

 

And I think I put, in doing the sketch, I read a little bit about it.

 

And so they've done thousands of tests.

 

And there are different variations of different variations of different languages as well, where they fit better because these words you would naturally pronounce differently in different sort of dialects.

 

So yeah, I think there are lots of different versions, but I am not an expert, but this is the NATO one, which is in case you ever need it as a handy reference.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, good, excellent, excellent.

 

Occasionally I use it for my postcode, but only on the second half of the letters because the first half is obvious.

 

And I don't, so I'll use it.

 

I don't mind using it, but I'll use it sparingly.

 

But Tommy, I totally understand where it's an issue that you would want to go straight in and just save it, just be efficient with your communication, isn't it?

 

Tom Pellereau:

The funniest one is wherever I am and someone comes out, you're in a waiting list, you're waiting at a hospital or something, and someone comes out and you see them look at their clipboard and they go, Tom, and you're like, yep, it's me.

 

Hi, Pellereau, yeah, you are, Tom Pellereau.

 

And they sort of look questioningly at themselves, yeah, hi, I'm here, it's me.

 

Jono Hey:

I have to say, when people say them to me over the phone, they echo Mike, Victor, Tango, Juliet, Kilo, whatever.

 

It takes me a little while to process it.

 

It's a bit like processing a follower in a foreign language, I think.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

Okay, right, and playing it back in my head.

 

What's the first letter of that word?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Oh, it's K.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, so that efficiency's gone, you're like.

 

I know, it's just good practice.

 

I hate to admit this, but yeah, when it's given to me over the phone, I switch it off and just say, yeah, yeah, that's right, yeah.

 

Tom Pellereau:

That call-centred job would never went too well, really, did it?

 

Rob Bell:

It's, that's my issue, that's my issue.

 

That's purely me just being, I don't know, resentful of having to think about something I don't want to.

 

What an idiot.

 

I will come a cropper.

 

Jono Hey:

Stop listening.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, nice.

 

And again, it's a lovely little sketch, isn't it?

 

All right.

 

I'm in two minds.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Compliment and compliment, it's excellent.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, I should do that one?

 

Okay.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I didn't even realise there were two.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, and I know that there are, but I don't know which one's which.

 

And...

 

Tom Pellereau:

You do now.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, I'll admit this.

 

Well, I didn't know.

 

It's only because I'm preparing for this podcast, because up to now, I've just gone, oh, do you know what?

 

I'll take a punt.

 

And I don't even know which one I normally go with.

 

I don't think I even have one that I normally go with.

 

But now, because of doing the podcast and because of Jono Sketch, I have got a means of doing it.

 

And again, feel free in the next few weeks to test me on it.

 

So it's the, yeah, it's the difference between compliment and compliment, one with an I, one with an E.

 

One, it means to speak favorably about something if you compliment somebody on, as Jono has done in the sketch, their green T-shirt.

 

That is a compliment with an I and compliment with an E is where two things go together nicely.

 

And in the sketch, Jono has done a lovely glass of red wine and a block of cheese.

 

Beautiful.

 

Don't they compliment each other well with an E.

 

But the way I'm going to know the difference between these now is that to compliment somebody with an I is you might say, I like your eyes.

 

You've got lovely eyes.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I like your T-shirt.

 

Rob Bell:

That's the compliment.

 

No, no, no, no, Tom.

 

Eyes, eyes.

 

You've got lovely eyes.

 

And that's the one with an I in it.

 

I the letter.

 

Yankee.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yankee, yeah, no, I get it, but similarly like there, T-H-E-I-R is about someone, so it's got an I in it.

 

So this is the same.

 

Rob Bell:

I know, but this is the way I'm gonna remember it.

 

Yeah.

 

You've got a lovely green T-shirt.

 

There's no green T-shirt in the middle of the word compliment.

 

So I'd struggle with that.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Eyes, green eyes.

 

Rob Bell:

You've got a lovely eyes, okay, we can make it green.

 

And I will remember that now, because I've made a point to remember that.

 

I will remember that now.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And so the one on the right, I actually thought it was about, cause you know, suddenly we get things complimentary.

 

I thought that was a glass of wine with a complimentary bit of cheese.

 

Now is that spelled with the E, or is please say that it's not a different one?

 

Rob Bell:

So you can use complimentary and complimentary are both words with an I and an E, right?

 

So you need to know which one is being said, because so let's say you bought, let's say you bought, this is an example I saw.

 

Let's say you went into a Taylor's and you bought a suit jacket.

 

And they said, oh, there's this pocket square that's complimentary, right?

 

Now you could interpret that as being, that's free, cheers, thanks mate, I love that.

 

Whereas what the salesman was actually saying was this, well, this pocket square will go really well with that jacket, yeah, with an E.

 

Jono Hey:

Did you walk off with a pocket square?

 

Sorry, with an, I'm sorry, I thought you said it was complimentary.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, exactly.

 

Jono Hey:

Keep walking out of shops with buttons and E.

 

Rob Bell:

So you need to understand the difference, although you don't, because what do you do?

 

Only if it's written down, would you see it?

 

Yeah, there you go.

 

Has that cleared everything up for everyone?

 

It has for me with compliment and compliment.

 

I know where I am with that.

 

Complimentary, if it's something that was complimentary, I'm gonna ask a secondary question in order to clarify.

 

I think.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Walk out of the shop with it.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

But thanks for that, Jono, because that is gonna stick.

 

That's gonna stick with me.

 

I mean, we did have a few others, but I'm gonna call it a day.

 

We've run up a bit of time there.

 

Any favourites, any that have gonna change the way you think about things or change the way you've learnt things?

 

Jono Hey:

You know, we didn't do my favourites.

 

Oh, come on.

 

I kept waiting for people to do them.

 

Rob Bell:

We're an hour in.

 

Come on, Jono.

 

Jono Hey:

No, no, no, we won't do them.

 

You can look them up.

 

Another one, Tsundoku is probably my favourite and Less and Fewer is the one that really I was grappling with for years.

 

Rob Bell:

Come on, let's spend a bit of time.

 

Tell you what you're going to do.

 

I'll probably see how we go with the edit, but let's get these down because we're prepared and maybe these ones or others that we did earlier pop up in an extra bonus, please an extra bonus episode later on in the series.

 

Maybe I'll do some unseen bits, some unheard bits, some free gift extra bonus bits.

 

Come on, Jono, let's do, which one do you want to go with?

 

Do less and fewer.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, so we've done a lot of this or that.

 

So I think affect and effect are probably the most common.

 

The second most common one people run into and I got this wrong for years and years and years and years is less and fewer.

 

And when to use less and when to use fewer.

 

And so the typical thing is that we tend to use less when we ought to be using fewer.

 

And so when should you use the two of these things?

 

So there's basically two rules.

 

So and I think sugars is quite good one.

 

So you use less when things are measured by mass, like you can't really count them, it's just bits.

 

So there's less sand, there's less sugar, there's less pieces of grass, whatever.

 

But when it's countable, like sugar cubes, you don't say less sugar cubes, you say fewer sugar cubes.

 

Rob Bell:

People, fewer people with a hair.

 

Jono Hey:

Fewer people rather than less people.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Unless there's thousands of people, would it then be less?

 

If there's a big crowd?

 

Jono Hey:

No, it's still countable.

 

But yeah, I don't know.

 

Yeah, maybe you get big enough, you do that.

 

The other one is, and you have some examples where when you have nouns that don't go plural.

 

So furniture is one way you'd say less furniture.

 

Yeah, but chairs versus chair, you say fewer chairs rather than less chairs.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Oh, hang on, it was all quite simple until you said furniture.

 

Rob Bell:

Got into the plural.

 

Jono Hey:

So you don't say furniture is basically it.

 

So that one doesn't go plural.

 

So that's a word where you keep saying the less.

 

But anyway, those are less common than the mass ones.

 

So I think I can come up with those more often.

 

So think about that.

 

If it's measured by mass, there's just stuff of it, then go with the less.

 

But if you can count them, go with fewer.

 

So there are fewer things on the desk.

 

They're not less things on the desk.

 

There are fewer objects, because I can count all these objects.

 

Yeah.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Okay, that's really handy.

 

Thank you.

 

And you'd never say fewer common.

 

Less common, fewer common.

 

Jono Hey:

You'd never say fewer common.

 

You really promised to jump around like, it was just silence and positive faces.

 

Has Tommy lost it?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Why couldn't you say fewer?

 

Is it because common is measured by math?

 

Jono Hey:

I think it's just different.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, it's maybe a different context.

 

The sugar one, you're right, the sugar one is good because there's less sugar there.

 

Oh, there are fewer grains of sugar.

 

Jono Hey:

You could say that.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's a decountable number of grains, visible.

 

Rob Bell:

I really picked up on this only about a year ago because somebody left me a slightly snarky comment on some stuff that I posted on social media where I'd used the wrong one.

 

And I berated myself for that.

 

And, oh, you're absolutely right.

 

I fell into the trap.

 

And I can't remember what it was, but I'm pretty sure I used less instead of fewer, which is probably the common.

 

That's what a lot of people do all the time.

 

So since then, I've been really hot on this.

 

And again, it's just one of those.

 

And there aren't many, but it's just one of those that has found a way to slot into my brain.

 

And I just, I feel like I don't have to think about it too much, which I enjoy.

 

But once, now that I'm conscious of it, I hear it all the time.

 

Tom Pellereau:

So what about votes?

 

So if an MP might get, actually they should get fewer votes than they expected, rather than less votes, because it is countable.

 

But I feel like it's more common for someone to say got.

 

Jono Hey:

Technically, it's not correct.

 

Yeah, it should be fewer votes.

 

Tom Pellereau:

So if someone lost a by-election by a number of votes, they wouldn't say, I had less votes than them.

 

I had fewer votes than them.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, fewer votes.

 

Yeah, exactly.

 

And you did, in fact, count them in order to find out.

 

Rob Bell:

But what they did have was less of the popular vote.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yes, because it's not always counted.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, it certainly didn't have fewer of the popular vote.

 

Yeah, a link to them in the description.

 

I think I thought it was really funny about this play on the peasants' revolt, and it's called The Pedants Are Revolting.

 

There's a baron on horseback.

 

I expected there to be less of you.

 

Yeah, it's really good.

 

Tom Pellereau:

With time.

 

Jono Hey:

So that sticks with me.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It feels like with time, I talk about having less time than I expected.

 

But time is measurable.

 

Rob Bell:

Fewer hours, hours are measurable.

 

Time is a continuum, right?

 

Jono Hey:

You don't have fewer time, yeah.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Because it's not...

 

Rob Bell:

You can't count it.

 

You can't count time.

 

You can count hours as a measure.

 

So I mean, I guess, I guess it's what I, what's lovely about this, I find it really interesting to get into the nitty gritty of the language.

 

Does it really matter if people understand what you mean and are very clear about what you mean?

 

Probably not.

 

No, but it's interesting.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's nice to know how it should be, so to speak.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, should slash could be.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, exactly.

 

And like people, people can use them however they want.

 

Like, I don't mind at all.

 

But for me, I was trying to figure this out and it goes like, ah, yeah.

 

Because I could never understand when people would correct me.

 

Rob Bell:

I mean, why is that one for you?

 

Jono Hey:

And so I had to go figure it out and do a sketch of it.

 

So there it is.

 

Rob Bell:

It is, and it's lovely.

 

Again, it's another lovely sketch.

 

It is a lovely sketch.

 

All right, I'll do the Tsundoku because I had picked that one out as an optional fourth one to do.

 

So Tsundoku, a Japanese word, meaning the act of acquiring books and letting them pile up without reading them.

 

And I like the fact that it's quite specific about not just acquiring books that you don't read, it's acquiring books and letting them pile up without reading them.

 

And I'm definitely guilty of this because I'm not actually a big reader, but I really love the idea of being a reader.

 

And so I'll buy a book that I think I'm gonna be really interested in.

 

And I don't know what I would be, I just don't make the time to read it.

 

So they're there and my intent is still fully to read all of these books.

 

But I have various piles of books around the house.

 

Jono Hey:

I'm surrounded by many books I have read, but many books I haven't.

 

But it's just sort of joyful acquiring books and the potential with reading them.

 

You know what, this is I think one of the words or the sketches that people relate to most.

 

It still keeps coming up.

 

People keep finding this one.

 

It's way deep down in the archive, but people keep finding it.

 

Yeah, because so many people can relate to the stacks of books next to your bed or next to your desk.

 

Rob Bell:

There's a whole industry that relies on it.

 

Jono Hey:

But the funny thing is, it feels good.

 

It doesn't necessarily feel like a bad thing to have all these books.

 

So that's why the person is sat on the bed with a smile he's quite happy about.

 

Yeah, he's quite happy about.

 

Rob Bell:

He looks quite peaceful there, actually.

 

Jono Hey:

Maybe if you surround it like it's just absorb it, osmosis.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I used to do a huge amount of this and I'd buy them and I'd have them sitting around.

 

But since Audible subscription, I don't really buy books anymore.

 

I just always listen to them.

 

And I'm quite good at getting through them when I'm listening to them.

 

Cause you can listen to them really quickly.

 

You can listen at double speed or sort of at least one and a half speed.

 

And you can get through books pretty quickly like that.

 

Rob Bell:

I think what draws me most to this is the word itself.

 

Tsundoku.

 

It's a nice to say.

 

It's a soft word to say.

 

Yeah, I love it.

 

You mentioned there about where you're inspired, not where you're inspiration, but where you probably first saw this, Jono.

 

Jono Hey:

Well, I mean-

 

Rob Bell:

Your first memories of it.

 

Jono Hey:

Let's say the sketch is loosely based on my parents' bedroom.

 

Piles of books all over the place.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Not loosely based, it was written about them, having been to your house.

 

It's not even the start of it.

 

Jono Hey:

I'm surprised they didn't make it up.

 

Rob Bell:

I remember the first time we went to your house and it was books all on every stair, up the flight of stairs, to the first floor.

 

There was a pile of books on every stair, wow.

 

Tom Pellereau:

But your dad was really philosophical about it, wasn't it?

 

Because he was like, he sort of had worked out how many books he reckoned he could read in his life and was like, therefore, he really, really valued books that he'd allow into his life in terms of he'd read a couple of pages and then decided whether or not it just wasn't worth that level of investment.

 

Can you remember the details of it, Jono?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, there's a sketch on it.

 

It's 3,500, I don't know if it's a bit more than that, I think, lifetime reads.

 

It's basically how many lifetime reads you have.

 

So basically, the idea is if you can read 50 books a year, which is reading a book a week.

 

Which is a lot, right?

 

You actually have a limited number of books.

 

Yeah, so 3,500 lifetime reads, if you read like 50 books a year for 70 years.

 

And our local bookstore has about 30,000 books.

 

So like, in some ways, you've got to be a little bit selective, you know.

 

Tom Pellereau:

That's if you're reading 50 books a year.

 

I don't know anyone who reads 50 books a year.

 

Jono Hey:

No, just my dad.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, very smart guy.

 

Rob Bell:

Such an untapped resource.

 

Jono Hey:

Come on, come on, Rob.

 

Hang out this podcast and go read those books next to you.

 

I will.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, that was pleasant, wasn't it?

 

Jono Hey:

That's nice.

 

Rob Bell:

Well done, guys.

 

Is there, yeah, so I was going to ask as a kind of round off to this.

 

Jono, like, do you have favorites?

 

I don't, I feel dirty asking you that.

 

Jono Hey:

You can't have favorites sketches.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, I don't want to ask you that.

 

I don't want to know.

 

I don't want to know.

 

And you've, I'm assuming you've probably, you probably know all this stuff now because you've spent a decent amount of time on every single one of these.

 

Jono Hey:

I tell you what, if you want to learn all of these things, write a weekly newsletter for 10 years and you'll have them all.

 

And they'll never leave you.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, brilliant, lovely.

 

Well done, chaps.

 

Yeah, we've managed to get through a good chunk.

 

But we'd also love to hear from you, our listeners, about which of those word-related sketches from the podcast that you'll likely remember most.

 

I mean, you might even be thinking about trying to use some words differently because of the sketches as well, or things that you're going to really try and remember.

 

Let us know.

 

Tommy, email address?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Hello at sketchplanations.com.

 

Rob Bell:

Thank you.

 

Or you can leave us your comments or send us messages on social media.

 

Well, I don't know about you guys, but I am stuffed.

 

It's time to bring this glossary gala to a close.

 

The wine of words has all been drunk.

 

There's nothing but sinew left on the encyclopedic carcass of jargon, and that tablecloth's really going to need a hot wash.

 

We're going to step outside quickly for a breath of fresh air, but we'll be back in a sec for a coffee and one of those tiny chocolates.

 

We're back.

 

I say we're back.

 

It's just me, Rob, as Jono and Tom aren't around to record the Listener Comments section this week.

 

And it's my fault because I forgot to schedule a time in because we're not actually recording an episode this week.

 

Anyway, you don't need to know all of that.

 

Now I referenced in the podcast that I might edit out some of the sketches just to save on time.

 

In the end, I didn't do that because I couldn't choose which ones to leave out, to leave on the cutting room floor.

 

So all 12 sketches that we went through are in there.

 

The consequence of that is that it is a very long podcast.

 

So I'm going to try and keep this comments section as short as I possibly can.

 

That said, we've got more comments to go through this week than any other week before.

 

So this is a kind of quick fire comments section.

 

Let me find them.

 

What's lovely is that having, this is our, what is this, our 14th episode.

 

So what's lovely now is that we're getting comments in each week that don't always just refer to the previous week's episode.

 

Sometimes they're from episodes weeks and weeks ago.

 

So that's lovely.

 

And the first two that I'm gonna talk about, in fact, the first three I think I'm gonna talk about here now are ones from our first Quickfire Round when we went through a bunch of different sketches, sketches that we'd found surprising.

 

So we've had an email from Doug who says, you talked about night vision in the Quickfire Round podcast.

 

I believe that this night vision tip is why pirates wear eye patches.

 

So when they boarded a ship, they're able to raid below deck without having to wait for their eyes to adjust.

 

They just flip the patch from one eye to the other.

 

Simples, might not be true, but makes sense.

 

Brilliant.

 

Doug, thanks so much for that.

 

What a lovely little contemplation on the past.

 

I mean, it certainly makes sense from a technical perspective.

 

As you say, whether that is true or not, I don't really care.

 

It makes for a great story.

 

Thanks for that, Doug.

 

Another email about the dark.

 

Yes, along the similar lines.

 

This was the sketch of kind of keeping one eye open when you need a wee in the middle of the night.

 

So Dan emails and says, in the podcast, you briefly mention the restaurant that's in the dark.

 

All this might have been the cross modal perception, actually, I'm not sure.

 

So Dan says, he went to one in Berlin and it made him think of one thing that we didn't mention specifically, although not strictly speaking cross modal perception.

 

There it is, that's what he's referring to.

 

That of heightened senses when one is taken away.

 

So in the dark restaurant, clearly it is sight that's taken away.

 

What struck me was my hearing.

 

Once I sort of got used to not seeing, my hearing literally turned superhero and seemed to get even better over time.

 

I could hear people talking from pretty much every table in the restaurant.

 

And when I say talking, I mean hearing every word.

 

It was quite remarkable.

 

He goes on to say, he's not sure where that fits in with what we were discussing, but it did bring back some of those memories, as well as that of the waiter that made him pour the wine for everyone, even though he had no idea when to stop pouring.

 

And Dan goes on to say, the other fun fact is that all the waiters are actually blind or partially sighted and that they have to lead you to the toilet whenever you need to go.

 

Brilliant.

 

I know there's one in London, it's called Don La Noire, at least it used to be.

 

There used to be one in London, I don't know if it's still there.

 

But I would be really, really interested to pop along to one of these restaurants and see what it's like.

 

I mean, pouring the wine without knowing when to start, that's crazy, isn't it?

 

Surely gonna make a right mess.

 

But yeah, the superhuman, the superhero powers have been able to hear crystal clear right across a busy room.

 

Very interesting.

 

We've had a message from Sarah on Instagram.

 

This refers, this one does refer back to the Quickfire Round and the Toowoo sketch about owls.

 

So Sarah had sent, Sarah sent us a poster at Picton Castle and Gardens, which says, not all owls hoot.

 

Some owls do not hoot at all.

 

And most make a variety of other sounds, such as screeches, whistles, barks, growls and hisses.

 

There you go.

 

A bit of educational literature up at Picton Castle and Gardens.

 

Thank you for sending that, Sarah.

 

It confirms everything that Jono put out in his sketch.

 

I think this is again, back to cross-modal perception.

 

Rebecca on Facebook left us a message to say, I too order tomato juice on planes and very rarely order it anywhere else.

 

Aren't humans utter paradoxes, both incredibly complex and yet also so simple?

 

Yeah, I think Jono, that was an addition that Jono was talking about last week about tomato juice.

 

I've been thinking about it ever since.

 

I haven't had one because I haven't had a flight anywhere, but I'm really tempted now.

 

I'd really like a tomato juice this evening.

 

And maybe I should put some static noise on to enjoy it even more.

 

All right, now we're heading back to last week's episode on the cost of being late.

 

So Niall emails in to say, hello lads, one from Steve Jobs, encouraging the OS team to reduce the boot up time.

 

If it could save a person's life, would you find a way to shave 10 seconds off the boot time?

 

He asked.

 

Kenyon allowed that he probably could.

 

Jobs went to a whiteboard and showed that if there were 5 million people using the Mac, and it took 10 seconds extra to turn it on every day, that added up to 300 million or so hours per year that people would save, which was the equivalent of at least 100 lifetimes saved per year.

 

That's very, very good.

 

Now I'll go on to say it puts another face to the cumulative impact of being late, or saving time as it is in this case.

 

Brilliant, brilliant, Steve Jobs, such a wise man.

 

He's such a really good communicator as well.

 

Yeah, that's good.

 

And finally, on Instagram, I've had a message from Peter saying...

 

Oh dear.

 

So Pete says, My wife's timekeeping is abysmal.

 

So I'll often tell her we're meeting people half an hour before we actually are, so that we can arrive on time.

 

Lovely.

 

Thank you for that, Peter.

 

And I hope your wife isn't listening, or she might have been rumbled.

 

There we go.

 

That's it for this week.

 

Please do keep all your messages and comments and emails or whatever coming on in.

 

We really, really appreciate it.

 

And they're great to read through.

 

And hopefully we'll have a bit more time, and the boys will be here next week just to enjoy them a little bit more.

 

But thanks again and cheerio for now.

 

All music on this podcast series is sourced from the very talented Franc Cinelli.

 

And you can find loads more tracks at franccinelli.com.