Life as Theatre: Front Stage v Back Stage Behaviour

Jono Hey:

With this advice, you can never overdress for an interview, and turns out you can.

 

I turned up in a suit, you know, I was never normally wear, and so I felt really out of place, and the guy turns up, super casual, he's in shorts and T-shirt.

 

I just felt like I judged it all wrong.

 

Rob Bell:

Was that for the lifeguard job at the local pool?

 

Jono Hey:

Yes, but it's funny, I mean, I was there, I was.

 

This is what you're supposed to do in an interview.

 

Rob Bell:

You are often talked about within context of The Apprentice, Tommy, as being the nice guy and being the exception to the rule that nice guys don't win.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yes, but if I was if I'd been on the bake off where everyone's really nice, I would have been the nasty guy.

 

Jono Hey:

Turning someone's oven off.

 

Rob Bell:

You could pass the buck or grasp the nettle.

 

What's your go-to mode when it comes to accountability?

 

Hello, this is Sketchplanations, the podcast.

 

Whether you're in the car, on public transport, out for a walk or a run, at work, or maybe just sitting at home in your pants and socks with a lovely cup of tea and a chocolate hobnob, you are as always most welcome.

 

As you probably know by now, we choose a different topic from the sketchplanations.com back catalogue each week and explore how it relates to us in our lives.

 

We also really love hearing from you, so please do keep sending your stories and your experiences with the different topics each week.

 

I'm Rob Bell and with me for the next half hour or so is the Lionel Messi of polymathy, polymathy, polymathy.

 

Jono Hey:

I think you've made that word up.

 

Rob Bell:

Polym, poly, poly, polymathy, polymathy.

 

I'm Rob Bell and with me for the next half hour or so is the Lionel Messi of polymathy, Jono Hey, and the Elon Musk of cosmetic gadgetry, Tom Pellereau.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Thank you very much.

 

Wow, that's an entry.

 

Rob Bell:

How you doing, boys?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yes, thank you.

 

I thought you were going to say about Jono, the polygamy.

 

Rob Bell:

The Lionel Messi of polygamy.

 

Jono Hey:

That's a different podcast.

 

Rob Bell:

Polymathy, polymath.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Polythene.

 

Rob Bell:

You know, someone who's just got all the talents, all the skills.

 

Tom Pellereau:

He certainly does.

 

Jono Hey:

That's way too kind.

 

Rob Bell:

Bizarrely, chaps, for some reason, I was thinking about A-level choices this week.

 

And I thought, well, actually, here's an opportunity for our listeners to get to know us a little bit better.

 

For anyone listening outside the UK, A-levels are the qualifications you generally take towards the end of your secondary education when you're 17, 18 kind of thing, and generally what university applications are based on.

 

But this line of thought came to me initially because I was thinking about your sketches, Jono, and the foundation of artistic skill required to create them.

 

And I think I'm right in saying that you did art at A-level, did you?

 

Jono Hey:

I did.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Jono did a lot of A-levels, though.

 

Rob Bell:

What else did you do?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, yeah.

 

Actually, there's quite a lot of my history put into the Sketchplanations.

 

So I did maths, further maths, physics, chemistry and art.

 

And actually, it's funny, I always say I'm in that order.

 

Because art was probably the one I was worst at, honestly, but it was the one I liked the most.

 

It was the only one that I wanted to go spend my lunchtimes going to do some art.

 

But I was good at the other stuff.

 

So, Sketchplanations is a bit like that.

 

There are so many great illustrators in the world that are not me.

 

And it's really a combination of everything else I know with a little bit of art, a bit like the A-levels.

 

Rob Bell:

What were your A-levels, Tommy?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Mine are pretty quick, maths, physics and design.

 

Probably the same as you.

 

You did maths, physics.

 

Rob Bell:

I did maths, physics, French and something called graphical communication, which is basically what Sketchplanations is, in a way.

 

Which I loved.

 

That was my favourite.

 

That was the one I wanted to spend my time on.

 

That was the one I'd do all nighters on.

 

That was the one I absolutely loved.

 

You could just lose yourself in what it was you were doing.

 

Jono Hey:

Well, in many ways that's why I did product design at universities, because it's this nice blend, right?

 

You get to visualise your ideas, but the ideas have to actually work.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

And that's the all the other bit.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Well, it's hilarious.

 

So I did design and I spent all my 90% of my time, I was doing design and I carried my portfolio around the whole time and I was designing stuff.

 

So the three of us did maths, physics, which we were OK.

 

Well, Jono was like borderline genius at, but we didn't spend by the sounds of it any time actually doing that.

 

And we all spent time doing these other ones that we loved hugely.

 

Rob Bell:

And that's very easy in, well, later on in one's professional life to dismiss the importance of your A-level results, if indeed A-levels were your chosen path.

 

And I think that's probably fair to a degree.

 

But whilst the specific content that I had to learn is now mostly long forgotten, I definitely feel like the A-level decisions I made have helped create the foundations for the way, I think, and the way I go about learning and problem solving.

 

Jono Hey:

Not bad for something in your teens.

 

Rob Bell:

It's all right, isn't it?

 

It's all right, because it is so easy.

 

People go, oh, your A-levels don't matter later in life.

 

But I think there's a, as I said, there's creation of a foundation there that you do.

 

And if you've got good teachers, then all the better.

 

Jono Hey:

Gosh, that was a long time ago, wasn't it?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Why are you thinking about A-levels?

 

Rob Bell:

I don't know.

 

I just did.

 

I was thinking about drawing and sketching and then I was thinking about art generally.

 

And then I started thinking, well, Jono probably did art at A-level because he's blooming good at it.

 

And part of that is shown through these sketches.

 

That was my thinking through that, Tommy.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And this is going to go out, like, so in eight weeks, people will be getting their A-level results, will they?

 

How many weeks behind are we here?

 

Rob Bell:

Do you know what?

 

That would have been a much better answer for me to have given.

 

Well, Tommy, I've thought about this.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I really thought that.

 

I thought you'd thought this through, right?

 

Eight weeks is July, middle of July.

 

A-levels come out at the beginning of August.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, so not far off.

 

So good luck, guys.

 

And just remember that whilst your results don't necessarily matter that much, although they will do at the time and they did for me at the time, you'll have created solid foundations for the way you think and the way you go about problem-solving and learning for the future.

 

All right, enough of that.

 

Let's crack on to the Potmobile.

 

Our discussion this week centers on Jono's sketch that explores the metaphor of life as theater, covering the difference between front stage and backstage behavior.

 

Now, you should already be able to see this sketch as the artwork for the episode on whatever podcast player you're using.

 

And you can follow the links in the podcast description to see it in more detail at sketchplanations.com, or you can find it on Instagram and Twitter too.

 

Now, Jono, once again, I feel like there is loads to cover on this topic and with this sketch.

 

And I know that we'll all probably be thinking up more examples for this for days to come.

 

But when I spend a bit of time with one of your sketches like this, I get really excited because I can see so clearly how this applies to life in such a wide general way, almost every facet.

 

And so as such, there's loads that we could cover, but I'll chill out a bit for now.

 

And I'll just ask you to tell us how you came across this metaphor and what it means to you.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, so I came across this idea of front stage and backstage when I was doing a qualitative research course at UC Berkeley with a great professor called Peter Lyman.

 

It's one of those times actually when I was doing my PhD, I remember basically feeling that my job was to be a professional reader.

 

That's what you did.

 

You read and then you figured out some interesting bit and then you read about that and you carried on reading the whole time.

 

And I remember one assignment in this was around a book by Irving Goffman called presentation of self in everyday life.

 

And Irving Goffman was a famous sociologist back in the mid 20th century.

 

And I remember at the end of the previous class, somebody asked, how many chapters are we supposed to read?

 

And he was like, no, we're just read the book.

 

Oh, okay.

 

So I spent like three full afternoons in a cafe over the next week, just sitting there reading the whole book from start to finish.

 

And a lot of his early work was around this idea of front stage, backstage, and essentially our social life as a performance.

 

So to explain the sketch a little bit, it's really about front stage is how we behave when people are watching.

 

And so the example here is, you're at a fancy French restaurant, and the waiters, you know, saying, would Madame care to taste the wine?

 

And the lady's just going, yep.

 

And then she catches herself and says, oh, I mean, why suddenly, thank you.

 

And of course, you never taste the wine back at home, right?

 

And then afterwards, the same couple are leaving the restaurant, and they're like, well, that was a bit posh.

 

This is how they behave when they're not, people are not watching them, and you can see the same waiter, he's out the back, the staff only door, and there's the dustbins, and he's smoking a cigarette.

 

Completely different to what he was doing on the front stage behavior.

 

So that's where I learned about it.

 

And I think as soon as you see this, and you get this idea, and this was one of Goffman's central ideas, was all about impression management.

 

And we're always in all these arenas of our lives, managing how we think others are seeing us, and behaving to that.

 

And so that's what the idea of front stage, back stage, it's stuck with me forever since.

 

Rob Bell:

And do you think some of that behaving in front of others is subconscious because of conditioning we've had all our lives?

 

Jono Hey:

I mean, sometimes I think it's necessary, but yeah, absolutely.

 

You learn it very early on as a kid.

 

Like you're in a store, you're not supposed to run and kick your brother and shout.

 

So you behave differently in a store than you do at home.

 

If you hurt yourself and you want more attention as a kid, you roll around on the floor and say it really hurts.

 

And then if your parents are not in the room, then you jump up and run run to where they are and roll around on the floor.

 

Like you're learning this impression management, I think really early on.

 

And sometimes I think it's a key skill.

 

It's a key skill that everybody has, but it also has its drawbacks.

 

Rob Bell:

Tommy, where do you see yourself in relation to the sketch front stage, backstage?

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's fascinating, isn't it?

 

There's so many different examples.

 

So I, for example, I'm relatively shy, I'm relatively introverted at times, but because I'm an inventor, I'm this apprentice person, I want it.

 

When I go to events, I am really like loud in terms of my clothing.

 

So I'll wear a top hat, I'll wear shiny, as you talked about the LED shoes, I'll wear kind of big stuff to be kind of really sort of different attention seeking.

 

Like I've, to an event where it's just like casual dress, I've turned up fully black tie, white tie, you know, full tails and all the works, just to try and make sure I will look different to kind of meet my kind of, he's the quirky inventor kind of thing.

 

But I'm not generally really a particularly attention seeking type person, I don't think, but I feel that that's important for my personal brand.

 

So I really do it and I do really enjoy it though.

 

Rob Bell:

I had an experience very similar to the sketch very recently, January this year, so in the winter this year, I was in the Alps in a bit of skiing and I went for a lunch in one of the, like the huts up the mountain and it was lovely.

 

It was a really nice, really lovely lunch and the service was good.

 

But there was that, it wasn't a particularly posh restaurant at all, but there was that kind of customer and waiter, server relationship going on where there is a level of kind of duty and a level of subservience of the waiter to you.

 

And it is, it is, that is what, those are those roles that we play.

 

And our waiter was lovely, he's a nice guy.

 

And we interacted at a very kind of polite, not formal, but semi-formal, we're in a restaurant type manner.

 

And then we skied down from there, got a lift up, skied a bit more, got on another lift, and just ended up chatting to a guy who was next to us with his snowboard, and he has his goggles and hat on and everything.

 

I was just chatting to him, I said, oh, we've just been for lunch to this restaurant down there.

 

And he goes, oh yeah, I work there.

 

I said, oh yeah, well, we were there just now.

 

He just come off duty, he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was serving upstairs.

 

I said, oh, we were upstairs.

 

Turns out he was serving us.

 

And so now I was having a chat with the same guy, with the waiter, but now I'm on a ski lift.

 

And it was a very different chat.

 

It's like the language is slightly different.

 

It was a bit more sweary and a bit more kind of casual and fun.

 

And it just kind of, it really opened my eyes to this and the roles that we play in these different environments.

 

I mean, it was the same guy, it was the same day.

 

We're pretty much in the same clothes.

 

It's just, we were in a different environment.

 

That was it.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, environments have so much power, don't they?

 

In terms of how they make us feel.

 

And that's a huge, I'm not sure that the environments comes into this, but they're incredibly powerful.

 

Rob Bell:

It's environment and scenario, right?

 

That's, I guess that's, in my mind, what defines how we behave a lot of the time in relation to this front stage, backstage.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I think if you run a nightclub, your job is to create a totally different environment where people can be a different person than they are at home and they are at work or they are with their parents, right?

 

You can do completely different things at 2 a.m.

 

on a dance floor, as you can anywhere else.

 

Really dumb example, I remember as a student, coming back, coming back late at night.

 

Rob Bell:

Here we go, can't wait for this.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, we just saw a shopping trolley and we're like, okay, brilliant.

 

We take the trolley home and somebody got in the trolley and pushing it around.

 

That was really fun in that environment.

 

And then the next day you wake up and you've got a shopping trolley in the front garden.

 

Rob Bell:

And is that all to do with the environment or maybe other factors?

 

Jono Hey:

Well, you know, it's things you wouldn't do any other place.

 

Yeah, I don't think it enables you to let your hair down and then all of a sudden the rest of your front stage life and all the rest.

 

Rob Bell:

Oh yeah, so having the shopping trolley in the front garden was a reminder of your backstage when actually I'm in front stage mode now.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, walking out the house in the morning, going to lectures, maybe going to an interview.

 

Jono Hey:

I'll tell you what, I remember wheeling that shopping trolley back in broad daylight, back to the supermarket car park, and it was a very different feeling, I can tell you.

 

Rob Bell:

It was a clash of the two.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, when backstage became front stage.

 

Rob Bell:

I mean, Tommy, you talk about The Apprentice, and I think it's the same with the telework I do.

 

It's the same with any kind of media interaction, I think, where what you're doing, what you're saying is gonna be viewed publicly.

 

It feels that it's an element of performance, I think.

 

And so I know with my telework, when the red light comes on the camera, there's just an extra 10% of energy and enthusiasm that comes to me.

 

And it's not being disingenuous, I don't think at all.

 

It is still me, but I've just kind of turned it up to 11 a little bit, rather than just being on 10.

 

That's how it is, but that is very much the front stage.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, and we've mentioned QVC, where I go along and I'm there and I'm present and I'm preparing and I'm a mess because I don't, and then I get ready for the six minutes and it's all shh, and then it's a highly focused six minutes of demonstration and I look, you know, everything looks great.

 

And then it's over and then you're just sort of chucking everything back in a bag and sort of wheeling it out.

 

It's just that six minutes of sort of perfection.

 

And I think I'm going to the TV, The Apprentice thing.

 

It was incredibly powerful how they kind of controlled us and got us to do stuff by the environment that we were in.

 

Like we had to wear suits and ties the whole time.

 

So you kind of feel stiff sort of thing.

 

And those boardrooms, you know, they were brilliantly kind of laid out.

 

And as soon as you walked in there, there was no kind of messing around in that room.

 

Even though it was a studio, you just felt like, oh, wow, this is like really serious.

 

And none of the crew would talk, none of that.

 

So they just made you feel like this is really serious place.

 

Jono Hey:

It's interesting that example of, yeah, like dressing up in a suit.

 

I mean, I've rarely seen more uncomfortable people than in interviews.

 

And that's where you go in and you play the good future employee and you dress up in the suit when you never wear a suit.

 

And you might be feeling really uncomfortable.

 

I remember an interview I didn't get.

 

And I was like, you read this advice, you can never overdress for an interview.

 

And turns out you can.

 

I turned up in a suit, which I was never normally wear and it never didn't fit me properly either.

 

And so I felt really out of place.

 

And then a guy turns up super casual, he's in shorts and t-shirt and I just felt like I judged it all wrong.

 

Rob Bell:

Was that for the lifeguard job at the local pool?

 

Jono Hey:

But it's funny, I was there, I was doing this is what you're supposed to do in an interview.

 

I'm going to play that and got it all wrong in that case.

 

Rob Bell:

It's true.

 

I'd love to wear shorts on telly a lot more than I do.

 

But it's a bit of a norm that you don't for no reason.

 

And if it's really, really hot, then you do.

 

And I have done and I'm so much more comfortable.

 

But I'm quite happy wearing shorts a lot of the year, not quite as much as the year as postmen do, but somewhere in between.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Well, we have a very good good friend, right?

 

Who always used to get suited and booted for exams.

 

For no reason, because he was like, Benji, yeah, he would always get fully suited and booted.

 

And by the finals, like with a full beard, because he was like, if you if you respect the exam, the exam will respect you.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, but he did that instead of revising.

 

Tom Pellereau:

He spent his whole time cleaning your shoes and getting himself ready.

 

Rob Bell:

I'm going to grow a beard instead of revise.

 

And then the exam will respect me.

 

That's not strictly true.

 

He did very well.

 

Jono Hey:

I think it's like it's very tiring, don't you think, being like front stage all the time?

 

Rob Bell:

Being on.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

On like being like being on QVC there or you're filming and you've got that extra energy or you're at an interview and you come back and you go your own backstage and you're like, do you know what?

 

Rob Bell:

That is exactly how it feels sometimes.

 

I'm not moaning at all because I love my job and I love what I do.

 

But you know, but on the face of it, on the face of it, I'm going to cool places and speaking to really interesting people and learning loads of interesting stuff.

 

She's like, come on, mate, you're having a laugh on you.

 

But actually it is quite tiring being on the whole time.

 

You're right, performance.

 

And even when the camera's not rolling as well, there's, you know, I'm on a lot because I'm around other people and I want to get to know those people.

 

You just want to make up, you want to make other people feel comfortable in your presence as well.

 

And the presence of a crew having cameras and everything there.

 

So I think kind of upping it, giving that extra 10% is part of that.

 

And I'm not complaining at all.

 

I enjoy it.

 

I love it.

 

But when you get back to the hotel at the end of the night, it is kind of, well, yeah, I'm a bit, a bit knackered here.

 

Jono Hey:

I was thinking about your filming and the shows I've watched that you've been in.

 

And I was thinking, my favourite moments in those, I think, are where you're less front stage, like something happens that is surprising or unusual.

 

Like, I don't know, you're on the submarine and like there was a genuine alarm and you're just responding.

 

It's almost like your front stage is gone and you just get backstage Rob.

 

And I always think that's where you connect most with you as a presenter, I always think.

 

Rob Bell:

I don't know how it feels to you.

 

Well, thank you.

 

No, it does because they're the bits I enjoy the most.

 

And I find when you're allowed to speak to the camera in a more informal way, when that's the style of what you're doing and the documentary you're making, that's when I'm enjoying it the most because that isn't that extra 10% the whole time.

 

It can be a lot more backstage.

 

That's the stuff I enjoy filming the most, for sure.

 

So thank you for saying that, Jono.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I mean, in a way, I sort of think like the people who do the very best on TV, let's say, but maybe someone like Attenborough, where it is scripted, but it looks like you're getting their genuine self and you see the joy in them and you feel like you're just getting them.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

It's not front stage at all.

 

But somehow, it's like we need all of our lives to build up that confidence in a way, just to be fully ourselves.

 

Rob Bell:

Absolutely.

 

It is a confidence thing to do that.

 

There are a number of presenters who I really, really admire who do that really well.

 

I mean, Chappers on Five Live is great.

 

Colin Murray, I think is a fantastic broadcast in just the way they are.

 

And you just get the feeling that they'd be absolutely the same if you were to be in a pub with them, just the two of you.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Is that an Ant and Dex?

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, it probably is.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It feels like they're very, very, I think it is.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, absolutely.

 

Which is why they're so successful and why they're so loved and why they do such a great job.

 

I wonder if you're similar.

 

So I would call it like my chameleon type approach to stuff where if somebody's talking in a certain way, I end up matching it.

 

So I remember I was interviewing this chap once.

 

I think he was nicknamed Dr.

 

Death.

 

So he was an academic expert in all things death and rituals and stuff.

 

And I was interviewing him in some catacombs in Norwood where you've got coffins on shelves.

 

So you're down there and you're talking about death and what it was like in the Victorian age and all this kind of stuff.

 

And he was quite elaborate and he had big eyes and talking up and down and using descriptive, kind of embellished language.

 

And I ended up doing the same thing back at him.

 

And you kind of catch it and go, what are you doing?

 

Jono Hey:

I don't talk like this.

 

Rob Bell:

Why are you doing this?

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's just very catchy.

 

Rob Bell:

I think it's probably a skill.

 

Do you find yourselves doing that?

 

Jono Hey:

I think that's a skill.

 

Like, you know, there's a little bit of like when in Rome, do more or less as the Romans are doing.

 

Because, you know, I've spent a lot of time in various countries.

 

And, you know, if you want to stick out like a sore thumb, go ahead and do what you do normally.

 

But if you if you match it a little bit, like if if you're in the US.

 

I find I can't help it.

 

My my my accent changes a bit.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Oh, yeah.

 

Remember when we when we came over to visit you, we were like taking a piss out.

 

You're going, Jono, what's happened?

 

You're like, well, the thing is, I could talk like we talk, but then people just don't understand me.

 

And it's actually really irritating.

 

I want water.

 

And people just look at me going, what?

 

What is water and water?

 

And yeah, it's just right.

 

Jono Hey:

I had to have my voicemail for my phone.

 

I remember whenever somebody from the UK would call me, all the messages start off with just him laughing.

 

I go, what are you like?

 

What are you doing?

 

But no, I think the chameleon self is quite interesting.

 

I think probably it's one of my strengths in life.

 

Being able to do it a little bit is being able to be like, you asked about early education a while ago, be able to be in a maths tournament and be able to play on the football team in the dressing room.

 

They're completely different environments, completely different people.

 

And it is hard if you are totally opposite to everybody in the room.

 

So I think that you naturally sort of adapt a little bit your style.

 

Rob Bell:

Is that empathy?

 

Is there an element of empathy that's involved in that?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Empathy and mirroring.

 

I think Rob, one of your special skills is why you're so good at interviewing people and putting people at ease and they want to talk to you is because you're very good at unknowingly subtly mirroring them and making them feel at ease and then they want to talk to you.

 

Rob Bell:

It's just, I mean, it's kind of part of the job, but it's kind of what I enjoy doing.

 

It's how I like to be, I guess.

 

And I think it's the same with both of you as well.

 

God, okay, pats on backs all around.

 

Well done, everybody.

 

We're bloody good.

 

So we've been talking a lot there about front stage behaviour, but can you think of examples of times when you're completely happy being backstage, where I think I'm going to call it kind of really letting your guard down and being very happy with that, or scenarios that you feel enabled to do that, let that guard down?

 

Jono Hey:

For me, it's mostly the people you're with, right?

 

The people you feel most comfortable with, where you really feel you can be yourself.

 

When you find your people, you're not having to pretend anymore and you don't have, it's not tiring.

 

You're not putting up a front.

 

You're not, it's interesting.

 

People come and visit, you might tidy up and stuff, but if they stay for a few months, you're just you.

 

And that extra effort goes away.

 

So I don't know, I feel like it depends on, it's just being with your very best friends, where you feel like you can just relax and be you.

 

Rob Bell:

And it's a lovely way to think of it like that, I think.

 

That you think, and we're talking about it within the context of this particular sketch, but I was thinking about this as well, Jono.

 

It's the relationships you have with, you know, your partner, your friends, your family, or members of your family, perhaps, where, yeah, you can just be you.

 

And when you actually sit and think about it for a minute, you realize, God, that is really, really lovely.

 

That is really special, isn't it?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, it's very nice.

 

I'm really fortunate that a very large number of people fortunately saw me on the TV program for 12 weeks, and I was not quite me, but I was trying to be as relatively me as possible.

 

And so when people meet me, they have a little bit of an idea in their mind what I'm possibly like, and luckily it tends to be relatively accurate.

 

So I'm really, really fortunate meeting people that that often happens, and it's a real blessing.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, you are often talked about within the context of the apprentice, Tommy, as being the nice guy and being the exception to the rule that nice guys don't win.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yes, but if I'd been on the bake-off where everyone's really nice, I probably would have been the nasty guy.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, turning someone's half and off.

 

I was thinking that it can sometimes still be tricky to be completely relaxed.

 

All of us perhaps play a little bit of those roles at different stages in our lives, even with the people that we love the most and spend the most time with.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, this is a brilliant fact.

 

And you can also influence this in the fact that, so my sister, who's a founder of this company, MindoverTech, she has three alarms that go off during the day that help her to be the person she wants to be.

 

So like at 9 a.m.

 

one goes off saying, you're a business champion.

 

It's sort of along those lines.

 

And then she is like business Harry, and she's all over that work.

 

And then at like three o'clock, she has one that says, I'm in mum mode now.

 

And so, because that's when she gets ready to go and pick up the kids, and she's then like puts her phone down, work down, and she's then like super mom.

 

You know, like trying to be like the best mum that she could possibly be.

 

And I think at 7 p.m.

 

she has one, which is like friendship Harry or something, where she tries to always call her friend of an evening.

 

And then she tries to be like the best friend that she could possibly be.

 

And so she's got these alarms to try and trigger her to be the person she really wants to be during the day, but at different times.

 

Rob Bell:

That's really interesting.

 

That fits with everything we've been talking about.

 

So she is who she is, and Harry is all of those things.

 

But when those alarms go off, that's her cue to perform with an extra 10% on that particular area.

 

Tom Pellereau:

On that particular one, because they're not necessarily ideal together.

 

Like being the best business person and the best mom is kind of tricky potentially at the same time.

 

Rob Bell:

Countless conflicts, yeah.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, so it's a really, really...

 

She told me about it recently.

 

It's like, that's a really great idea.

 

Jono Hey:

It's a really smart thing to do.

 

So having the Superman shirt underneath your business outfit.

 

Yeah.

 

I like that, actually.

 

I was thinking of examples where people's...

 

Tom Pellereau:

I'm sure it's got a name, Jono, if you could do a sketch.

 

Jono Hey:

Just let me know.

 

Well, I was thinking of examples where people's backstage comes through a bit.

 

And in fact, you do it deliberately.

 

Like in London, you see people dressed up in the suits, but they've got these really super colorful socks.

 

You know, that kind of thing.

 

Or you have a tattoo, but it's in a place which is just covered up.

 

Or you have a...

 

I used to have like a little dolphin necklace, which you can like tuck away under the shirts, you know?

 

So most of the time it's not there, but it could be there if you wanted it to be.

 

Rob Bell:

What's that?

 

I don't think it's...

 

Jono Hey:

No, it's not there now.

 

Rob Bell:

Ah, shame.

 

Good point.

 

But with that, there's also this, what social norms dictate.

 

So, you know, if you're listening to something funny on the tube, on public transport, on the bus, wherever you might be, maybe this podcast, who knows?

 

And you find it funny, and you laugh out loud, it's kind of like, oh, better not laugh out loud too much.

 

Or the kind of the opposite of that, crying in public, because you're really upset.

 

It's kind of this, this display of emotions in public can sometimes thwart a social norm.

 

And so you might kind of suppress that and be a bit more front stage rather than what's really inside you, which is backstage.

 

Like, God, I really need to let this out.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I had a weird example.

 

I read Scott's diaries of Captain Scott, the Antarctic, and the full sort of unabridged.

 

And it's a remarkable story about, and you're literally reading each day's entry as they march towards running out of food and freezing to death.

 

And I read the last bit, when they're all just like, lying down and giving up essentially, as I was pulling up to my station to go to work.

 

And you've felt a little tear in the eye, tearing up a bit.

 

And you're like, this is weird.

 

I'm here with everybody else just on their commute.

 

It's a packed train.

 

And you're in this other world, yeah.

 

Very strange, yeah.

 

You're like, I don't feel quite comfortable to go full on here.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I don't think we can not talk about the coronation that was this weekend in relationship to this day, which is just this, what is it, seven or a thousand year old ceremony and everything had to be done when it was done.

 

And I think maybe there's a little bit of a fascination amongst all of us as to what Commender and Charles and the family were like when they went back off the stage and they went into the house.

 

What were they really talking about?

 

What was the sort of gossip inside?

 

And it is maybe part of that, like our fascination with the Royal Family because they are always, when we see them, absolutely front of the stage, aren't they?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Almost don't even say anything.

 

Jono Hey:

It's like the ultimate front of the stage thing, isn't it?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah.

 

It almost, I totally understand why there wasn't, but I was so surprised that Charles didn't sort of say, thank you at any point, Tony, like thanks everyone for coming.

 

Wasn't it a lovely day?

 

Do you know what I mean?

 

Because a lot of people have been out of the rate, but all they do is the front stage kind of waving.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I mean, I think he spent the whole day behaving as he was supposed to behave, right?

 

Not behaving as he would normally behave, you know.

 

Rob Bell:

There's the odd glimpse, like when the archbishop of Canterbury was putting the crown on his head, and you know, a good old twist, and Charles gave him a bit of a kind of, mate, what are you doing?

 

Jono Hey:

I thought about that with young George, who had a part, you know, a potential future king.

 

Well, yeah, and the kids, the kids don't care so much, but you know, he's going to have a life of behaving like a king.

 

That is always front stage.

 

How do you behave?

 

Well, you're not going to run around and kick your brother because you got to behave like a king.

 

Rob Bell:

This example is absolutely ingrained in your brain.

 

You're poor younger brother, Jono.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

The upbringing you must have had.

 

Tom Pellereau:

No, but you're right.

 

Rob Bell:

Like maybe, well, is there something there about kind of kids and backstage because they haven't learnt those social norms yet and those expectancies upon us all?

 

It's quite nice that.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, he's got it coming to him there, hasn't he?

 

Rob Bell:

But then, well, Louis does, apparently.

 

Young Prince Louis got it coming to him from George, according to your mantra, Jono.

 

Jono Hey:

I can't kick him in public, he's not on front stage.

 

Rob Bell:

But then talking about kids and their kind of liberty to act a bit more backstage, what would life be like if everybody did behave along the backstage way all the time?

 

Jono Hey:

Much more relaxed.

 

Rob Bell:

Much more relaxed, possibly more fun, probably quite annoying.

 

Jono Hey:

Good point.

 

You go to the fancy French restaurant where the sketch starts for that experience, right?

 

And if everybody was sat there in sweatpants and flip flops, it wouldn't be the same, right?

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Tom Pellereau:

On the subject of kids, one of the things I love most about being a parent is that you can be really childish with them and it's fine.

 

Especially if you go to a wedding or you go to a really posh thing and you can just sneak off with them to the back and do really childish stuff and it's fine.

 

It's acceptable.

 

Rob Bell:

It's acceptable, whereas you shouldn't.

 

Is that you being front stage within the scenario because you're with kids?

 

Or is it backstage and your shackles are off and you can be more you?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Oh, that's a good question.

 

Which is the real me, us?

 

Rob Bell:

Well, as I suspected, boys, we had a lot to talk about and we could probably chat about this for ages and ages and ages, but I'm gonna bring that to a close.

 

Any other business?

 

No?

 

Good.

 

Well, we love hearing from you guys, so feel free to let us know any of your thoughts on any of the topics we've covered so far in the series.

 

You can email us hello at sketchplanations.com or you can just leave us a message on social media.

 

And you can also tell us any of Jono's sketches that you'd like us to cover in the future.

 

We're very much open to that.

 

We're gonna be going through some of your correspondence from last week in just a minute at the very end of this podcast.

 

For now though, it's time to bring down the curtain on this performance.

 

At last, we can truly be ourselves.

 

I can see Tommy there about to light up a ciggy.

 

Jono's got two episodes of Judge Judy ready to go before bed.

 

And I've got my favorite track on Justin Bieber's Journals album All Primed.

 

Thank you very much for listening.

 

Next week, we've opted for a Bumper Pack Quickfire episode where we'll cover as many sketches as we can along the theme of those we've found most surprising.

 

Until then, stay well, go well.

 

Cheers.

 

See you next time.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Bye-bye.

 

Rob Bell:

Right then, chaps, I tell you what, let's keep it short and sweet this week because that episode has gone on a tad.

 

So we've had, what was it?

 

What were we talking about last week?

 

The accountability ladder.

 

Ben Knowles on LinkedIn has left a message saying, great empowerment episode.

 

That's nice, that's good to know, isn't it?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, getting to the power side of the accountability ladder.

 

Rob Bell:

I mean, that fills me with joy there because that's what I get out of a lot of the chats that we have is empowerment to think about things differently and to try and affect with an A, affect my behavior in certain situations because I'm more conscious of it because we've chatted about it.

 

And I think the accountability ladder was a great example of that.

 

So it's lovely to know that other people feel the same way as well.

 

Thank you, Ben.

 

And also I've had a message from an anonymous listener, again, about the accountability ladder.

 

And they say, the accountability ladder made me think about my attitude to the difficult feedback I've had in my new role at work and how I could have dealt and can deal with that differently.

 

Goes on to say, it doesn't mean having to agree with it all, but it does mean accepting it and making changes to those things that you are willing to change without impacting your own ethics.

 

I mean, that sounds very sensible to me.

 

The message goes on, one example of this relates to my communication style.

 

Basically, I can cut a lot of the chat and niceties out and be more direct, and that's okay.

 

I can do that.

 

So, and I say, thanks for the jumpstart.

 

Yeah, that's nice.

 

Again, I guess that's a very specific example of, of maybe just assessing, maybe a bit more perspective, having the framework of the accountability ladder giving you a bit more perspective on self, which is, we talked about quite difficult to do.

 

Jono Hey:

We talked about metaphors right at the beginning, and I often think of like feedback as a gift, and it's up to you to choose how you deal with it.

 

And so difficult feedback doesn't always feel like a gift for sure.

 

And you might not be ready for it or like not respond to it well, but actually it's up to you to see what good there is in it that you can use to change your behavior if you want to.

 

And you can, you know, it's easy to sort of reject feedback as not valid or not appropriate for you or whatever.

 

But actually, if you frame it as feedback as a gift, then you can be like, okay, well, if I accept that, what can I take from it?

 

What can I do to own it and move forward?

 

So I think it's a really positive attitude.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, that's great.

 

Great.

 

And do keep your messages coming in.

 

We absolutely love hearing about those and hearing about your examples.

 

That's us for this week.

 

So a whole time off.

 

Thanks very much for listening and we'll be back next week.

 

Until then, stay well and go well.

 

Cheers.

 

Jono Hey:

Cheers everyone.

 

Rob Bell:

All music on this podcast series is sourced from the very talented Franc Cinelli.

 

And you can find loads more tracks at franccinelli.com.