Groupthink

Tom Pellereau:

There was a beauty task where I was pretty sure we had chosen the wrong product at the wrong location.

We were 15 minutes into this task, and I was pretty sure we had already lost.

And the rest of the team were like, Yeah, we've done it, this is the bet, you know.

And I'm like, oh my god, dear god, where are we going?

 

Rob Bell:

Based on the statistics, I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this question, but what happened in that task?

Did you win or lose?

 

Tom Pellereau:

We lost that task.

 

Rob Bell:

This week, we're talking about something called groupthink, a phenomenon within a group dynamic where one feels uncomfortable to express their own, sometimes contrary, opinion.

 

Jono Hey:

They had stronger opinions about whether or not something was going to be good or not, whereas I think I was quite happy with anywhere, to be honest.

And so at some point, you sort of go, yeah, whatever, I don't mind, fine, don't just do that.

 

Rob Bell:

Hello and welcome to Sketchplanations, The Podcast.

 

Kick it, pass it, tackle, go on son, out, bring him down, dig it, ace, get in the hole, trap it, hit it, slice it, what a save, what a catch, what an idiot.

 

Here and of course, goal.

 

All vocabulary incessantly expressed by the sporting enthusiasts amongst us.

 

Whether participating or supporting, it's difficult to imagine that these words and their equivalent in other languages aren't used every second of every day on or near a sports pitch of some kind somewhere in the world.

 

And for the non-sporting amongst us, well, most are still relevant in everyday life.

 

At the dinner table, pass it.

 

At the allotment, dig it.

 

Even at the cake shop, slice it.

 

I'm Rob Bell, centre back with an unpredictable touch.

 

And my trustworthy teammates on this podcast once again, the creator of Sketchplanations and midfield maestro out of all of our leagues, Jono Hey, and our front runner who's been known to hit below the belt, it's Tom Pellereau.

 

Good evening.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Good evening.

 

Brilliant intro.

 

Jono Hey:

Good evening, Rob.

 

Rob Bell:

You know, you both play sports and support teams, don't you?

 

Did you find yourself immersed in those experiences ever and occasionally coming out with some of these cliched sporting phrases?

 

Tom Pellereau:

I think it's completely impossible not to, right?

 

I now watch a lot more sport than I participate in, especially with my son, my son and daughter on the side of the pitch.

 

You do want to get quite involved.

 

You do start yelling sort of certain cliches and certain things.

 

It's good fun.

 

Jono Hey:

You're the reason they had to put that barrier aside.

 

Is that right?

 

Rob Bell:

Well this is, I mean, it is a real issue, right?

 

I know there's an FA code of conduct for parents supporting their kids.

 

So there are really set rules that become, they seem to become more and more specific because of some of the idiots out there who are causing absolute trouble.

 

And I don't mind calling them idiots, I'll call that out quite happily.

 

But sometimes it is easy to get carried away, isn't it?

 

Tom Pellereau:

It can get a bit, hockey is what both my kids really enjoy playing and it's a little bit more.

 

Rob Bell:

And something that you played a lot of as well.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I used to play a lot of hockey and unfortunately because of a back injury, I stopped being able to play quite a long time ago.

 

And so I live vicariously through their hockey playing and I just wish I was on the pitch sometimes because 10 year olds, I could really get involved in that game, it was great fun.

 

Jono Hey:

Barrel straight through them, wouldn't stand a chance.

 

Rob Bell:

But when you are playing sport as well, I mean, I was certainly quite vocal on the sports pitches in and amongst a team, in team sports, I was always quite vocal, I think.

 

Jono Hey:

Good captain material.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, I don't know if it is or not.

 

Shouting, it wasn't necessarily shouting anything, you know, that constructive or strategic.

 

Jono Hey:

I don't think that mattered in a lot of things.

 

I think as long as you were shouting, do you remember there was like a common shout that you'd be like, come on boys, it's quiet.

 

Yeah, okay, we'll say something, anything, doesn't matter, just noises.

 

That's fine.

 

It's funny.

 

Good captain material.

 

Yeah.

 

If you're shouting, keep the keep the shouting up.

 

Rob Bell:

There's a brilliant Mitchel and Webb sketch that came to mind, you know, Mitchel and Webb, the guys from Peep Show, they had a sketch show they did on radio first and then it went on to TV and it starts off like a Premier League coverage promotional clip for Sky Sports, you know, that kind of thing about all the games they're going to show this season and all the goals and the rivalries.

 

But it turns into this diatribe about the fact that the football will go on forever and it will never be decided who has won the football.

 

It's very good insight, I think, to how a lot of people who aren't necessarily that interested in football or sports generally probably see the coverage of it at the time just being thrown at us and how big and important it is all the time.

 

Jono Hey:

Isn't that finished?

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Didn't they do?

 

Jono Hey:

Didn't they figure out who's the best last year?

 

Why do they have to keep going?

 

Tom Pellereau:

And people who don't know much about cricket in terms of the ashes, they do probably wonder, is it ever going to finish?

 

Like after 21, 25 days and it was still a draw.

 

It's like, what?

 

How?

 

Jono Hey:

It's a bit crazy.

 

Rob Bell:

It's good though, isn't it?

 

I'll include a link to that sketch in the podcast, I'll send it to you boys as well.

 

That's very good.

 

And I don't think it matters whether you're into sport or not.

 

This podcast is for everyone.

 

So let's get the ball rolling and give this our best shot.

 

The ball is in your court, listeners, and we'd love it if you subscribe to the series and told your family and friends about it as well.

 

Think of it as a free season ticket and there are still premium seats available right on the halfway line.

 

Right let's knock this out of the park.

 

Let's play ball.

 

This week, we're talking about something called groupthink, a phenomenon within a group dynamic born out of a desire to maintain harmony and consensus where one feels uncomfortable to express their own, sometimes contrary, opinion.

 

And this can result in individuals suppressing their own views and ultimately dispassionately agreeing with the group at large.

 

Now, the sketch for this should be there on your screen right now.

 

It's there on mine.

 

Jono, Tommy, you got it up there?

 

But if you can't see the sketch on your chosen podcast player right now, then you can find the link for it at the top of the podcast description down below.

 

And if you think of anything you'd like to contribute to the conversation as you're listening, then please send us an email to hello at sketchplanations.com.

 

It is absolutely brilliant getting your correspondence and we'll go through a bunch of those from last week at the very end of this podcast.

 

Okay then, Jono.

 

Now this sketch lays it out pretty clearly, I think, and then the little thought bubbles that you've popped above the characters in there, I think cover the range of thoughts that we've all probably had at some point within that group dynamic, be that at work or at home or amongst friends, even within a sports team perhaps.

 

But talk us through the sketch and tell us a bit about your thoughts on groupthink.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I'll turn and talk through the sketch real quick.

 

It was actually a request from somebody.

 

It's something I've known about for quite a while, but somebody requested it off the back of some other sketches I've done.

 

Rob Bell:

Oh, cool.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, and I tried a few different ways to explain it.

 

I ended up with this scenario.

 

I guess I was trying to reflect a few different aspects of the way groupthink comes about.

 

And so just to set the scene of the sketch, there's essentially somebody on the left who's at the head of a big sort of boardroom looking table and he's saying, so we all agree it's the only way.

 

And of course, they're making some assumptions there, like we all agree, they're sort of saying it as if it's fact.

 

And then each of the people at the table, there's five of them at the table, they're thinking one thing, and then they're saying something.

 

And so one person's like, well, maybe it is right.

 

And so they haven't necessarily made up their mind completely, but maybe they like the person who's saying it's the only way.

 

And so they're like, let's do it.

 

Next person's like, well, I kind of like the other way, but I guess if they're saying that and we all agree, sure.

 

And then somebody else is actually having some questions about whether it's 100% legal.

 

But given that the other people are going with it, I guess somebody else is like, I was thinking about lunch and they're kind of done with it.

 

So they're like, fine, whatever, done.

 

He's like, yeah, I'm done.

 

And then the last person sat there and they're like, oh, well, I suppose everybody else is agreeing with just me.

 

Well, then okay.

 

Whereas they might have, if they thought that other people disagreed, they might have spoken up.

 

And so that's the idea.

 

It's like all these different aspects of group decision making coming up to be the fact that actually people didn't wanna like rock the boat there and the group has decided on one thing, even if there were different perspectives within the group.

 

Rob Bell:

Tommy, where are you with this?

 

Have you ever found yourself succumbing to the groupthink mentality?

 

Tom Pellereau:

I've got a number of different experiences from this.

 

And as a kind of innovator and as a leader of teams, where I get a lot of groupfeedback, it's something that I often battle with.

 

In fact, we had a meeting with everyone today and we've sort of brought in certain techniques to kind of try and minimize this and actually allow people to have their kind of personal views within.

 

But we can come to that.

 

The most present example, pertinent example is from The Apprentice, because we were in these groups, we were in these half groups.

 

And there were a couple of times where I was there thinking, what are we doing?

 

This is like the worst, like what, and the other members of the team, like high-fiving, going, yeah, guys, this is brilliant.

 

We're gonna smash this, this is the best task ever.

 

We're gonna, and you're like, really?

 

This is, we've just, especially there was a beauty task where I was pretty sure we'd chosen the wrong product and the wrong location.

 

And I'm like, we're 15 minutes into this task and I was pretty sure we'd already lost.

 

And the rest of the team were like, yay, we've done it, this is the bet, you know?

 

And going around the table, yeah, we love this product, we love this, and I'm like, oh my God, dear God, where are we going?

 

Rob Bell:

Based on the statistics of your apprentice, I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this question, but what happened in that task?

 

Did you win?

 

Tom Pellereau:

We lost that task and that was obviously the beauty task and I ran a beauty business at the time, so that was particularly painful and poignant, especially, it was literally, we were 15 minutes into this task and as far as I was concerned, we chose the wrong product and the wrong location, but everyone else was like, or seemingly, everyone else was really happy with it and they're like, oh, dear God.

 

Jono Hey:

So why in that case didn't you speak up or did you speak up?

 

Tom Pellereau:

One of the things I learned during the apprentice is I need to get better at speaking up and I didn't necessarily, but also in some respects, we didn't, it later turned out we actually didn't have a choice.

 

The other team were better at getting the other product and so I suppose probably other members of our team were like, yeah, we're gonna smash this because we kind of almost had no choice.

 

And there's that line between positivity within a group and negativity and like, you've got a lot of, yeah.

 

But also it was pretty clear that we were in trouble.

 

Jono Hey:

It's also a slightly unusual scenario in a sense in that you are competing with the people on your same team, right?

 

We normally in a group thing situation, you're on the same side and you kind of are on the same side, but you're also not 100% on the same side, right?

 

Like there's a risk in like sticking your neck out, which is I think part of group think, right?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yes, yes.

 

And in The Apprentice, the stakes are very high because you'll probably then be identified as a troublemaker and then you'll get fired for being the troublemaker.

 

But also I'm sure in a lot of corporate world and business world, you kind of want to go along with the boss, go along with the rest of the peers, don't want to be, again, be seen to be the troublemaker because you might lose your job or not get that promotion or that kind of thing.

 

Rob Bell:

Which all comes down to the culture of that group, right?

 

And the rules of engagement, whether they're written or not.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Exactly, and that's sort of one of the things I try to make clear within our team that I want negative feedback almost more importantly than positive feedback often, especially when we're, because one of the things I've learned most importantly in inventing is that you can't invent everything.

 

So you've got to kind of say no to things as fast as possible, almost, to channel down your energies into the places where it's going to create the most benefit or getting into the kind of details of it.

 

But yeah, group think constantly aware of it.

 

And I've got another couple of examples, which I'm sure Jono and you both have too.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, let's talk through some of the personal examples.

 

And so you've set the scene for the kind of professional environment there, Tommy.

 

And as I said before in the podcast, I used to have a proper job in an office.

 

And I know, I was thinking about this and it's a generalization of some of the meetings that I'd get called into.

 

There was a culture of meetings at this company where I worked.

 

It was just meeting after meeting after meeting in these different teams and groups.

 

And I think I got involved in group think from the perspective of the guy who's thinking about lunch, right?

 

It's like, let's just get this done.

 

Where I was just, it was kind of apathy for being in that meeting that I was feeling and just like, you know, whatever.

 

Let's just get this done and I can get out and do some actual work rather than just sitting in the meeting.

 

And that was one where I felt that happened quite a lot in that professional environment for me.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's terrible, isn't it?

 

Because apathy is probably actually the worst emotion in the working environment.

 

Rob Bell:

It's horrible to have it when you want to.

 

Because I think what groupthink sometimes covers or is a real front for is when that feeling of that you can't be bothered to upset the apple cart in order to put forward your opinion, that's stronger than the will to put forward your opinion.

 

Right, the desire to just get this done or to just keep consensus and keep everything civil without having to justify yourself or argue your corner is a stronger emotion than what you're feeling towards the issue, which I think says a lot, perhaps in certain situations.

 

Jono Hey:

We was out to dinner with a few folks recently and it was quite clear that both of them had stronger preferences and opinions about where we should go after the restaurant than I do.

 

And so there's a bit of like, okay, well, where should we go?

 

Well, we could go here, we could go here.

 

But they had stronger opinions about whether or not something was gonna be good or not, whereas I think I was pretty, I was quite happy with anywhere, to be honest.

 

And so at some point you sort of go, yeah, whatever.

 

I don't mind, fine, I'll just do that.

 

And by the time you've been standing around for five or 10 minutes, you're like, okay, we should just go somewhere, anywhere.

 

And I think that's a bit like the lunch person, isn't it?

 

Yeah, like we should just move on somewhere.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Make, and often that's the most important thing to do now is just make a decision and move, but be flexible in the fact that you might not have 100% made the right decision.

 

So be able to slightly drift in another direction later on, but not making a decision at the time can be a bad thing as well.

 

So it's all quite tricky, but apathy I certainly really dislike.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, it's horrible.

 

It's absolutely horrible.

 

And the other times is when sometimes I'll feel a bit annoyed at myself.

 

I mean, if I haven't spoken up about something that I do feel quite passionately about, just because I don't want to upset that situation.

 

And sometimes, no, sometimes I think probably most frequently that's things around environmental concerns in amongst a group who don't really care that much.

 

Yeah.

 

And you just like, oh, look, what's the point in me standing here and lecturing on how I think this should be done?

 

Because you're not going to change your behaviors.

 

You've clearly set out your stance on this.

 

So what's the point?

 

I'll just shut up and yeah, agree with you or whatever.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, especially if there's been a long process.

 

I mean, the sort of decision fatigue, I remember learning that if you're negotiating and you want to get something, it's in your interest to keep the negotiation going as long as possible.

 

Because if you've both been negotiating for a really long time, there is that feeling that you just want to get it done.

 

So if you put a change in towards the end, somebody might say, fine, just give it to them.

 

Because if you put that in at the beginning, they won't.

 

And so yeah, I think there's a bit like, disagreeing means you might have to go around all the houses again.

 

And you're like, I don't really want to go around all the houses again and get everybody.

 

So yeah, we'll do it another day.

 

Rob Bell:

But then, and Jono, so you were talking about being out at dinner the other evening in a social setting, right, so a major professional, I don't know, it might have been a professional, but that element of it was definitely social.

 

But and amongst friends, you know, when you're in a group of friends, sometimes there is this group think mentality is just, yeah, yeah, I'll just go along with this, it's absolutely fine.

 

Or it certainly used to be a lot more of that when I was younger.

 

Now I've got a bit older, I'm a bit happier just to say how I feel about stuff, a bit more, a bit more.

 

And the one that always comes back to bite me is when I decided that I didn't want to go to the darts.

 

There's a big group of our mates all going to the darts, up at Alley Pally.

 

It's a massive day on the smash, watching darts.

 

And I just, it was really rowdy environment.

 

And you know, there are times when I would have enjoyed that.

 

At that time, I wasn't feeling like I would enjoy that.

 

So it's just our guys, I'm not that keen.

 

I'm not gonna come.

 

Whereas the group think part of me, in 10 years prior to that, probably would have said, yeah, cool, yeah, great.

 

I'll buy my ticket and come up and have a day that I don't think I'm really gonna enjoy.

 

Jono Hey:

How did it feel to do that, to say that?

 

Rob Bell:

It felt great, but it still comes back.

 

I still get called stubborn, stubborn Robbie.

 

Jono Hey:

Cause he didn't get it on.

 

Rob Bell:

You're so stubborn.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

Look at you.

 

Why don't you just come to the darts?

 

I'm really pleased you had a good day.

 

Jono Hey:

They just missed you friends.

 

They wanted you to be there too, you friends.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I think that's what's great about growing up, right?

 

You start learning more about yourself and what makes you happy and what works for you.

 

And you, that sort of group think you learn, A, potentially not to just fight it and B, direct about it.

 

And B, that there are other ways that you can kind of get your thoughts across and C, you can do your own thing and that's all right.

 

And you get better at communicating that.

 

I think sometimes when we're young, we also, if we try to go against the group, think it just doesn't really work.

 

Like we almost have like a temper tantrum kind of thing.

 

But as we get older, we're a bit more mature about how we communicate it as well, I think.

 

Rob Bell:

I think in the professional situation, it's still very much dependent on the culture and what the consequences or what your perceived consequences of speaking up might be that can really have an effect on how you act.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah.

 

And Jono, I'm sure you, what is it that you do in the team?

 

You're brilliant at this sort of stuff and ensuring everyone's listening and listened to, rather.

 

Jono Hey:

I try, I try, but yeah, I mean, there are lots of things you can do in a professional context.

 

I think there are lots of different variations of like group decision making as well.

 

I was thinking like a classic one is like worrying that your idea is gonna be silly or it's stupid, you know?

 

And you can help address those kinds of things with like no stupid questions up front, just that kind of thing.

 

Like this is probably, there are no stupid questions.

 

If you're not sure, just say it.

 

And then you can help somebody get an idea out that they wouldn't otherwise.

 

I put a note in the description of the sketch about psychological safety, this concept from Amy Edmondson, which is where people feel comfortable and safe to speak up and to disagree with opinion, especially against authority or people with like a higher status in the group.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

There's a classic one, I've not done a sketch.

 

I don't have so many things to do sketches of.

 

I've not done one of The Hippo, I don't know if you heard The Hippo.

 

The Hippo is the highest paid person's opinion, which is quite a common example for group thing, which was a little bit like what I was going for in the sketch, right?

 

So, yes.

 

Well, you know, the boss comes in and says, so, clearly we're gonna do this, and everybody else is like, mm, okay.

 

And they go along with it, but they wouldn't otherwise.

 

And you need really good psychological safety to speak up against somebody superior to you who's got power over you, potentially.

 

And that's really difficult.

 

Rob Bell:

You do.

 

And I'm looking at a number of examples that I picked out earlier from history, where I think the hippo element has caused things to happen within groupthink.

 

I mean, I'll go through them quickly here.

 

I mean, there are loads of great examples.

 

So there's the 2003 evasion of Iraq.

 

Great examples.

 

Great example.

 

Yeah, strong examples, apt.

 

Going after weapons of mass destruction and the intelligence agencies wanting to please their superiors.

 

The superiors wanted to oust Saddam, so wanted some excuse to go in.

 

So the agencies only really supplied information to confirm that bias.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Confirmation bias, yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

That's all that.

 

Again, there's the invasion of Cuba, the Bay of Pigs in 1961.

 

That was a bit different.

 

A plan was drawn up under Eisenhower's administration, but then JFK came in, and without questioning any of the assumptions that that plan was made up, or thinking about it any further, or any further investigation, they carried out the plan and it was a huge failure.

 

The introduction of a new Coca-Cola flavor in the mid-80s.

 

That was done kind of without going out for public's consensus.

 

It was just amongst the board, the senior people within Coca-Cola that thought, right, we need to do something here to get back our market share because new diet drinks and juices, I think, were coming into the market.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I think Pepsi was becoming stronger, wasn't it?

 

So they were like, we've got to be more like Pepsi rather than, yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

Probably that as well.

 

The Challenger Space Shuttle disaster.

 

The engineers voiced concerns over the O-ring seal that was later found to have been the failure and its susceptibility to temperatures.

 

And the design group leaders were desperate to keep the project on schedule.

 

So they put their utter faith in NASA's safety protocols and safety systems at the time, which had led to the O-rings being signed off as being okay.

 

But the engineers were expressing, we don't think they're okay, and we think you need to probably look at your protocols as well, which says these are okay.

 

And it was the low temperatures in the night before the launch that caused the O-ring to fail and, well, we don't know what happened.

 

Kodak cameras.

 

Remember Kodak, the brand?

 

They were the world leaders in camera technology, and that superiority led to a feeling of invulnerability.

 

And the group think Element came in, because when digital cameras came in, they thought, no, we're all good here.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I think they were also, they developed some of the first digital cameras.

 

Rob Bell:

Ironically, they did.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And they were like, and they could have been the leaders of that, but yet they really, what they were, they were obviously makers of film and silver nitrate and all that sort of stuff.

 

So they didn't want to switch.

 

Rob Bell:

And world leaders in that, I thought, no, these are incredibly lucrative for us.

 

We'll stick with this.

 

And then a couple of very quick more cultural ones.

 

So Lord of the Flies, 1954 novel by William Golding.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Piggy.

 

Rob Bell:

Exactly.

 

Ultimately led to the murder of Piggy.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It was a fictional book rather than an accurate, but it felt very real.

 

Rob Bell:

But it's classic groupthink.

 

And the last one.

 

Do you remember the ice bucket challenge?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yes.

 

Rob Bell:

For ALS.

 

Jono Hey:

Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, also known as motor neurone disease.

 

Rob Bell:

Yes.

 

So it started off in the US and the ALS Association, where it started a thing where you'd get sponsored to do the ice bucket challenge.

 

You know, you get someone to tip a load of ice or AV and then you nominate other people.

 

So it's incredibly profitable.

 

Well, yeah, profitable.

 

It raised a lot of funds for ALS, which is great.

 

But most people had absolutely no idea why they were doing it by the time social media got on.

 

And, you know, five people nominating, other five people nominating, other five people.

 

People didn't know why they're doing it.

 

It's just that, OK, that's what everyone's doing for social media.

 

I'll stick it up on Instagram.

 

Here we go.

 

Yeah, there you go.

 

Just some examples.

 

Jono Hey:

I mean, these are really, really big important things.

 

I think I was thinking of like even Greta Thunberg doing the school strike, you know, everyone else is not, you know, you say, I'm going to go strike from school.

 

What?

 

What are you doing?

 

Of course you can't do that.

 

And then she went and did it.

 

And I'm really impressed, like at the school, our schools, they've been teaching about the concept of being an upstander and like standing up, standing up for things and speaking up.

 

And like they read a book recently by Stephen Lawrence called Silence is Not an Option.

 

And you know, those kind of things, they're just really important values.

 

But I think, I mean, what age?

 

Rob Bell:

What age is primary school?

 

Primary school doing that?

 

Jono Hey:

I know it's good.

 

So I've got a lot of hope for the future.

 

But like saying no and a lot of those things and saying stop is hard, I think.

 

I remember hearing about some of the Pixar films.

 

I can't remember which one it was, but like, you know, they were like two thirds of the way through and there's something just wasn't feeling right.

 

And they stopped where they were, basically got rid of that team and started from the beginning again.

 

And I think that must be a really hard decision to do.

 

It must be really annoying as well if you're in the team, but massively hard to just go, right, no, we're not going to do this.

 

You imagine like being your three quarters of the way through the development of New Coke and you're ready for the launch and then you have to say, actually, this is a bad idea.

 

And so actually I think in many ways in business, the good ways to avoid groupthink are to reduce the stakes as much as possible and increase confidence and get all those opinions early on when it doesn't matter, when it's easy.

 

Because the further you get down the road, like the launch date is next Wednesday.

 

It's very hard to say, no, we're going to take it all down, put it all back.

 

We're going to do some more tests, cancel the thing.

 

So like treating things as experiments as much as possible really helps.

 

And just lowering the stakes as much as you can, gathering data early, encouraging disagreement.

 

But yeah, I think saying no to big projects at the end is just really hard.

 

Tom Pellereau:

The first focus group I did for my makeup brush cleaner, which was in the first kind of month or two of creating it.

 

Now bear in mind, this is a product that has gone on to be my most successful ever.

 

We've sold 2 million units.

 

But at this focus group, they were all like, no, I don't really see the point in it.

 

Like, yeah, well, yeah, maybe if it was a tenner, I might buy it.

 

And this is a focus group of sort of 12 people.

 

I don't think we'd actually pick the right people.

 

There was one, looking back, there was one person who was kind of very much, she made a decision and then it was a real group think example where others were like, yeah, no, I probably agree.

 

I probably don't.

 

And it reminds me every time when we start talking about doing focus groups, how you've got to be very important on the dynamic of it and how you're taking feedback and that sort of thing.

 

But literally that idea could have been killed in the first couple of months had I listened to that focus group and not continued.

 

Jono Hey:

Wow.

 

I think that, particularly with ideas, it's so important.

 

And I put a link about group ideation and things like basic stuff.

 

If you have a lot of ideas, which one do you think we should go ahead with?

 

Things like anonymous voting makes such a difference.

 

You've done that thing where you're like, okay, which one we go?

 

You've all got some stars or dots or something and you're going to put them on.

 

And if you start putting, if everybody goes to put the dots on the post-its on the board as they think of them, you're like, okay, well, there's four on that one already.

 

I really like that one, but that's clearly not going to go.

 

So maybe I'll do that one.

 

And it totally changes it.

 

Whereas if you go, okay, you will do it, we'll do it anonymous, you decide your votes, then you do it, that kind of thing.

 

I think it just makes such a difference.

 

And I think that is what sort of happens in a focus group.

 

And so I tend to avoid focus groups.

 

I'd much prefer doing like a, I'd rather do fewer in-depth interviews with fewer people than-

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, as individuals.

 

Jono Hey:

As individuals, yeah.

 

Because I just think you, you know, like when you have time with somebody, you can really get to know them.

 

And you can make that safe space for them to tell you no.

 

And you have to work for that.

 

If you say, my name's Tom and I just invented this thing.

 

What do you think?

 

Of course they might say, oh, that's really nice.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And that's huge, Jono.

 

I have to make sure that I don't, now when we get feedback, we give people paper and they write it down exactly what they think.

 

And then that gets put into the sort of the envelope or the box, as it were, rather than me going, so what do you think?

 

I've spent two years of my life trying to perfect this.

 

And then them going, can I buy you a drink?

 

Yeah, oh yeah, it's obviously the best thing ever.

 

So, yeah, it's huge.

 

Jono Hey:

They're almost doing like group think back at you.

 

You've like given them an idea and they don't want to upset you.

 

Yeah, I quite like it.

 

Rob Bell:

It's the group think cycle.

 

And so it goes around.

 

Jono Hey:

I had some other like other ways of thinking of, it's sort of like group think, but it's almost like the reverse.

 

I was thinking like a lot of group thinkers, you want to fit in and it's risky to stick out.

 

And so like the classic example I have is, imagine you're in a lecture theatre and there's 200 people in the lecture theatre and they say, okay, who thinks it's going to be this one and who thinks it's going to be this one, put your hands up.

 

And you know, if everybody puts their hands up for one of them, and you've done that one where you put your hand up and you look around to see, has anybody else got their hand up?

 

Because it's really, it's worrying you like, oh my God, am I being really stupid?

 

And I think that's the sort of bandwagon effect because you're worried about you're looking silly.

 

But like the reverse of that is when you're with people who are doing something which seems otherwise outlandish, it's sort of okay.

 

And a classic example for me was, as you've got two of them, one is in the US, it's quite common to dress up, anybody just dress up for Halloween for the whole day, not just for a party.

 

So you might dress up in a Halloween costume and then go get the subway to work.

 

And it's fine if you get on the subway and there's a bunch of other idiots dressed up in ridiculous things.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, it's fine, it's fun, it's great.

 

Jono Hey:

But it's very weird if you're the only one dressed up in a shark outfit or something and everybody else is just in their workplace.

 

And I remember, Tom, you and I did this.

 

Do you remember doing the red dress run?

 

Which is where everybody goes on a 5K run around San Francisco and dresses up in a red dress.

 

It's a ridiculous thing to do.

 

And I remember thinking, you're like, I don't know, it's a bit like a masked skinny dip or something.

 

You're like, hold it to the last second before you put this dress on and turn up.

 

Because you have to walk there and you're the only one walking around in a red dress.

 

What's going on?

 

And then you're running and everybody's in a red dress and it's fine.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And there's hundreds of you.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, well, it's fine.

 

It's like the Santa, Santa creeps things.

 

Yeah, so that feeling of like it's uncomfortable and you just want to fit in, but it's really uncomfortable until you're with that group who are doing the same thing, you know.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I think it's another example of finding groups of friends who can help you kind of break down barriers and do things like Tough Mudders or certain exercises that I wouldn't do half the exercise things I've done if it wasn't for you guys.

 

You know, the Tough Mudder, the 25 miles run with obstacle courses, which are so fun when you're doing.

 

But if it wasn't for the fact that hundreds of you were doing, you wouldn't go and do it on your own, right?

 

But they're really good fun with others.

 

Jono Hey:

I do remember, actually in that event, that 20-mile one, and the first obstacle was like cold water, muddy water, and it was low down and you had to crawl through it.

 

And just above your head, there was like a barbed wire thing, so you really had to get in it.

 

And everybody was dry and clean at that point, and it's a nice day, and you just dive in and you're like, there's no way I would do this.

 

Tom Pellereau:

There wasn't.

 

Jono Hey:

Absolutely no way.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It wasn't for the big queue behind me and everyone in front of me doing it.

 

Rob Bell:

I guess the other benefit that we kind of touched on earlier is that you get a decision made, right?

 

As opposed to it going round and round again in the kind of scenario as with the sketch, Jono, where you're in a boardroom and a course of action has been put forward and is like, right, so we're doing this, are we guys?

 

We're all agreed?

 

Jono Hey:

Have you guys ever seen the film 12 Angry Men?

 

Yes.

 

Rob Bell:

Absolutely.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, and I was, because it came to mind, it looks like that scenario, right?

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, it does.

 

Jono Hey:

And I remember at the beginning of that, so somebody was being tried for murder, right?

 

And so there's 12 people in a room, a jury, and it's the thing that half of them just want to get out of there.

 

And there's a little bit where he's like, okay, what are we going to do?

 

I guess I'm in charge.

 

So somebody says, I think it's customary to have a vote early on.

 

And so they just do a vote.

 

And it's a public vote.

 

And they all say, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, except one person.

 

And everybody just like rounds on him.

 

What are you doing?

 

I guess we're here for another hour.

 

What are we going to do about this?

 

Why are you saying that?

 

There's really that pressure that that person feels, isn't there, to change his mind and to go along with the group.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yes.

 

Rob Bell:

And isn't in 12 Angry Men, isn't that another example of hippo?

 

Where the guy with the highest status or people within the highest status of the group kind of take control and try and force that group think on others within it.

 

Jono Hey:

I remember being at...

 

If you're doing ideation, deliberate ideation, coming up with ideas sessions, I remember being at one which was facilitating, they gave people Nerf guns and they were like, who's the most important person here or whatever?

 

Who's the highest status?

 

He's brilliant.

 

And then they shot him with a Nerf gun.

 

They said, if you...

 

Everybody has permission.

 

If you hear them saying belittling your ideas or whatever, you can shoot them with a gun.

 

The whole way was to level the playing field and make it...

 

I went to another one.

 

It was really good.

 

It was actually an after dinner sort of thing.

 

It was coming up with some ideas.

 

And he said that there was a game that somebody liked to play as a warm-up for ideation for leveling the playing field.

 

It was called Barnyard.

 

Rob Bell:

Barnyard.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

 

I forget.

 

I think it was a Stanford professor whose game it was.

 

And he said all the game is, is you pick an animal and you make the noise of that animal as loud as you can in the room.

 

And it's like such a ridiculous thing, but it's something quite leveling about like seeing your boss trying to do a chicken impression or something or like, like a donkey before you get into stuff.

 

And it just makes you realize, oh, we're just all people here.

 

Because we've just done something silly together.

 

They're not more important than me.

 

There's a level in the status.

 

So yeah, it's always a good thing if you can.

 

Rob Bell:

So let's talk about some of the ideas or some of the methods that you've proposed in the caption under the sketch, Jono, about how to avoid groupthink.

 

That feels like a nice place to bring some of those in.

 

Because I was quite motivated by a lot of those when I read them.

 

And that first one, I think, is really good.

 

So generating ideas separately before coming together, which is kind of what you talked about a bit earlier.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I think that one also comes up because people are so different.

 

You have extroverts and introverts.

 

You must have been in sessions where some people just throw out ideas, and they're talking, and they're taking up the whole conversation.

 

And somebody else who's super smart is sitting there saying nothing.

 

And maybe they've got the great idea, but first of all, they don't have a chance to say anything because everybody else is talking.

 

Secondly, they don't want to speak up.

 

They don't feel comfortable speaking up.

 

Maybe they don't have the confidence.

 

Exactly.

 

A standard technique, particularly works brilliantly remotely, is everybody goes off and does their thinking like 10, 15 minutes of ideas, and then you bring those back together, and then it's like a shared document that you can go through.

 

And that makes a big difference.

 

I like that one.

 

Rob Bell:

Another one you've got in there is hiring diverse teams.

 

So including people with all sorts of different backgrounds, different ways of thinking, different upbringings, different skills, different educations into your team in order to bring all these different ideas and opinions to the group.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I almost did the sketch as a two-sider, which was groupthink on the one side, is it's enhanced by similarity.

 

So if you have a bunch of middle-aged white men, that's going to encourage more groupthink than it is if you have a diverse population.

 

So on one hand, you got enhanced by similarity, and the other groupthink is reduced by diversity and getting outside perspectives in.

 

Rob Bell:

What else did you have on there?

 

You talk about psychological safety, so setting out those rules of engagement for people and I guess trying to level that status amongst everybody.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, another simple one is making it a normal thing to, and people do that really well, like, I'm just going to play devil's advocate for a moment.

 

If I was this, I might think that, you know, and it gives you sort of gives you permission if you say that to ask a question which might be countered to the group.

 

Everybody's agreed on this.

 

Let me just play devil's advocate.

 

I'm not saying this is right, but what about this?

 

And it gives you another perspective.

 

Rob Bell:

It's a very simple, but can be very effective and useful tool that, isn't it?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

You're taking the pressure off of yourself and you can maybe even camouflage your own opinions.

 

Jono Hey:

Well, I think that's a good way to think about it, because it's not necessarily your opinion.

 

And I think that's actually a lot of ways to separate this.

 

We often talk about task conflict.

 

Task conflict is good, but relationship conflict is bad.

 

So if you think you're stupid because of the idea that you're putting forward, or people think you're stupid, then that's bad.

 

But all you're trying to do is assess this idea versus that idea.

 

There's no effect on you or judgment on you.

 

And so I think devil's advocate is like, okay, well, somebody might think this.

 

I think that's quite a nice way to do it.

 

Another one that comes up quite a lot is the disagreeing commit.

 

It's quite a good one.

 

So you're like, okay, I'm going to raise my doubts.

 

I don't necessarily agree.

 

Fine.

 

But if the group's going to go with this, then I'll commit to it.

 

But at least that's a way that you're going to, people can raise their doubts, even if that's not going to be the end up decision of the group.

 

I think that's a good one.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's another framework is this concept of a pre post-mortem where people in the team are asked to kind of think about, okay, we've launched and it's a year later.

 

And unfortunately, it really didn't work out.

 

And if you could please write down all the reasons that you think that the project didn't work out and you deliberately ask people to be in a kind of negative mindset and then you hope that, and I think Jono's concept of getting them to do this separately is very important as well, where you then get the honest feedback of things that people are actually concerned about, which they wouldn't necessarily want to voice because they don't wish them to come true.

 

But if you're talking about it's already happened, it's already gone wrong, these are the reasons.

 

And then hopefully you can then address them or decide whether actually maybe it's something we shouldn't continue with.

 

Rob Bell:

That's great.

 

And is this the kind of stuff that you are trying to implement at work then, as you're saying with the meeting today, you're trying to bring some of this in and embed that culture within the people who work with you?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, culture is so important, firstly, and, you know, a culture of openness, of transparency, of sharing of ideas, of like no bad ideas.

 

I also really encourage using, we always have bits of paper where people write their thoughts on and I much prefer it when people write in their own words that we then put in the box, because if I then write it down, I know that I'm putting my own personal bias in, in terms of what they say, or I am hearing what I want to hear rather than necessarily hearing what is being said.

 

And me personally, as often the hippo in the room or the founder, you know, owner of half the business, I have to be very careful in asking people their opinions and often try to use my other team members to find out the true opinion, because I am often the hippo.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

But some of the tools that we talked about here do help automatically because the system and because of that process.

 

It's a process, isn't it?

 

Because you're following a process within a structure, hopefully that just gets rid of that hippo.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I hope so.

 

And I've written down, Jono made some very good ones there, which I'm writing down to make sure we, for example, have more anonymous voting.

 

I don't think we have anonymous voting actually currently.

 

So that's something we could do for these new ideas we were talking about today.

 

And that would be really helpful.

 

Jono Hey:

Just as a small thing, you reminded me with the Post-It, something I recommend quite a lot.

 

If you were doing that sort of exercise where everybody writes something and then you put them up, is to, like, let's say you're using Post-Its, is to all use the same colour Post-Its, because what it does, and ideally you all write with the same pen.

 

People don't like me when I suggest this sort of stuff, but you all write with the same pen, and you try and all write in capitals, let's say, so it's all the same, more or less, and then you put them all up together.

 

And what you do there, as opposed to sort of, like, having everybody having a different pen and a different colour Post-Its, is when you put the things up together, it becomes like a shared work product, as opposed to individuals' ideas.

 

And so you're no longer, like, looking at it and going, oh, well, that's Jim's idea.

 

Jim always has rubbish ideas, and we'll put all the blue ones to the side.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And I can't read Jim's writing anyway.

 

Jono Hey:

And I can't read it.

 

Yeah, I can't read it.

 

So, like, I always try as much as possible.

 

You want to make it a shared work project, and this is out.

 

If you work on team projects at work and make it a group product, and then it's like, nothing's personal.

 

It's just about the end product together and little things like, actually, why doesn't everybody use the same color as Post-It's?

 

Actually, they help in small ways.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, very good.

 

Jono Hey:

People don't like it, though.

 

Rob Bell:

All right, listen, guys, any other business on groupthink?

 

Jono Hey:

I would just put it out to plug a few other sketches.

 

I was hoping you would.

 

Yeah, a few of them came to mind as I did this.

 

So there's one that I would mention, which is the bandwagon effect.

 

So you could go look up, which is very similar to this.

 

Also, I think it's called the bystander effect, which is where if nobody is helping someone who looks like they're in trouble, you're less likely to help, which is sort of groupthink in a very negative circumstance of it.

 

There's also quite a fun one, I think.

 

I've only found one reference of it.

 

It's from Nassim Taleb.

 

It was called the firehouse effect, which is this idea that in principle, at least as he says, firefighters who would sit around in the fire station waiting for a fire and having nothing to do but chat about stuff without a lot of external ideas would come to think all sorts of crazy things, crazy ideas, because they don't have that outside perspective.

 

I think that's quite a good one.

 

Rob Bell:

I like how you caveated that at the start.

 

That's not what you were thinking.

 

Jono Hey:

And then there's also the Abilene paradox, which is, I think, a really good one to look at.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, it's good.

 

Jono Hey:

But anyway, we can...

 

Rob Bell:

It's a nice sketch as well.

 

Great.

 

Thank you all very much for listening.

 

Please email us your stories of when you've witnessed or been part of a group think to hello at sketchplanations.com.

 

I'm almost certain that everybody has experienced this at some point.

 

So let us know your stories.

 

We'll be going through the post bag in just a minute from last week.

 

And we'll be back with another episode next week.

 

But for now, go well and stay well.

 

Goodbye.

 

Goodbye.

 

Hello.

 

It's just me again this week.

 

Straight into the post bag we go.

 

And as the one amongst the three of us who I think seems to...

 

Let's use the word suffer the most from laughing at friends' misfortunes.

 

I especially have enjoyed reading all of your messages this week about schadenfreude, about this infliction, as I think you agreed it was in last week's episode, of inappropriate laughter.

 

And I've been reassured that I am not the only one out there.

 

Thank you very much to everybody.

 

We've had loads of input on this, and I'll read out just for you now.

 

Okay, from Andrew on Instagram.

 

Andrew says, I'm afraid my first instinct is to giggle or laugh at someone tripping over, but I don't mean to be bad.

 

It just happens uncontrollably.

 

Andrew, exactly.

 

I feel your pain.

 

I feel your pain.

 

Retired Mary, again on Instagram, says, I laugh when someone falls, but laugh harder when I fall.

 

A little flip reverse it there.

 

She doesn't say, I usually break my nose in brackets four times, but tripped on stone pavers two weeks ago and busted my lip.

 

I had a padded mask on so nothing showed and it helped to soften the blow.

 

I could still feel I had my front teeth.

 

I'm very pleased to hear this, retired Mary.

 

And so I laughed it off.

 

But when I got home, it looked like I'd been punched in the mouth or it had bad Botox or both.

 

Gosh, I'm so sorry for laughing, retired Mary.

 

It kind of feels appropriate and inappropriate at the same time.

 

But just a little follow up for those of you like me, who's very concerned for Mary's well being.

 

She says she's fine.

 

There was nothing broken.

 

She just won't be kissing for a while.

 

I mean, crikey, Mary.

 

I mean, that sounds awful.

 

You say four times you've fallen over and broken your nose.

 

I mean, I don't know what to think about that.

 

Yeah, gosh.

 

But anyway, Mary, here's wishing you a full and swift recovery from that.

 

And hopefully you'll be kissing again in no time at all.

 

Let's have a look.

 

One final one on Schadenfreude and laughing at people hurting themselves.

 

I do appreciate that is an odd thing to be saying out loud and publicly actually.

 

But here we are.

 

This is what we're discussing.

 

Halil Dermis again on Instagram sent us a message saying, in Game of Thrones, Varys says, who doesn't like to see their friends fall down then?

 

Good question.

 

Thank you, Halil.

 

I've never seen Game of Thrones to be honest, but it sounds like a right laugh.

 

Brilliant.

 

I mean, yeah, loads of messages about Schadenfreude and laughing at your friends.

 

But finally, off the topic of Schadenfreude, we had a lovely email in from Sarah who says, firstly, thank you for being my supermarket shop soundtrack this Friday evening.

 

You're very welcome, Sarah.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

And secondly, the listener who suggested the sketch got me thinking about what I call a people path, where a formal footpath is in place, but takes you on what feels like a much longer route.

 

Therefore, people create their own path, which is shorter and very often it's right next to the footpath.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

Sarah, it does make sense.

 

Yes, I know exactly what you mean.

 

And Sarah goes on to ask, is there a name for this?

 

Is there a sketch?

 

Well, lo and behold, Sarah, yes, and yes.

 

And I learnt the name for this because of Jono's sketch on it.

 

You call it a people path, Sarah.

 

Other people call it a desire line or a desire path.

 

And you can find Jono's sketch for it up on sketchplanations.com.

 

He's called it a desire path up there, I think.

 

I always tend for some, not for some reason, it's very obvious why.

 

I always tend to think of vectors in maths when I think about desire lines.

 

You know, you've got your kind of X and Y axes and then this diagonal line that goes between the two endpoints, which is instead of going up and then turning 90 degrees and walking across, you just go straight diagonally between them.

 

That's just how I think about it.

 

Anyway, there you go.

 

Guys, thank you all again for all your messages.

 

Please do keep them coming in.

 

Email to hello at sketchplanations.com.

 

Did a little tummy there.

 

My mind went blank.

 

And don't forget, you can still preorder Jono's Sketchplanations book, Big Ideas, Little Pictures.

 

And the best place to do that is at sketchplanations.com forward slash book.

 

Otherwise, thanks again.

 

Cheerio, see you next week.

 

All music on this podcast series is sourced from the very talented Franc Cinelli.

 

And you can find loads more tracks at franccinelli.com.