Goldilocks Tasks

Rob Bell:
This episode, we'll be discussing Goldilocks tasks.

Tom Pellereau:
I actually really quite enjoy doing the dishwasher because it's like a 3D puzzle.

It's like my determination every night to get every single item in that dishwasher.

Jono Hey:
One of the co-founders of Twitter, he was always coming up with ideas.

He said, to be an entrepreneur, to be creative, you have to have confidence in your ideas before you've even had the ideas.

video games are just amazing at keeping you in the Goldilocks sweet spot all the time.

Rob Bell:
The hardest IKEA furniture builds.

The easy ones, you don't get me bored with that.

The hardest ones, they possibly are.

It says you need three people.

Don't worry, I'll figure it out.

I'll get it done.

Tom Pellereau:
No, no, no.

I don't want three people.

I want to do this all on my own.

Rob Bell:
In fact, tie one of my arms right behind my back.

Tom Pellereau:
Make it difficult.

Rob Bell:
Then I feel like I'm Goldilocks in this to the max.

Hello, and welcome to Sketchplanations, The Podcast.

Now, as a kid, my dad once said to me, well, when I was young, everything used to be in black and white.

Now, I totally misinterpreted this.

Instead of associating his historical reference purely with visual media like newspapers, photographs, television, I thought he meant that essentially colour didn't exist.

That literally everything in the world around was in black and white.

And I remember very clearly never really get into grips with that concept.

It puzzled me.

It concerned me.

And so you can imagine my relief when I learnt what he actually meant.

I'm Rob Bell, colour sensitive, and joining me in this celebration of saturation is the red, yellow and blue of the Audible Colour Wheel, its primary personality, Jono Hey.

And like a fancy paint job on a souped up car that dances across the colour spectrum, he's shady, he's tinted with exuberant undertones.

It's Tom Pellereau.

Jono Hey:
Hello there.

Rob Bell:
Hello my friends.

Jono Hey:
Hi Robert.

Rob Bell:
Right, come on then.

Very simple question for you both to kick us off today.

What's your favourite colour?

Jono Hey:
You say that's a simple question.

I don't know if it is that much.

Oh yeah.

It's not intentional, but whenever we come to choose paint colour for the walls or furniture or curtains or anything house related, cushions, we always end up with like a teal kind of thing.

Rob Bell:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
Like a sort of, you know, mix between a blue and an emerald kind of thing.

Does anybody say teal?

Rob Bell:
I've got a lot of time for that.

I've got a lot of time for teal.

I had a wall, a feature wall in my house painted teal until recently when I don't make all the shots in the house anymore.

But it is still a feature wall.

It's just a, it's now haig blue.

Jono Hey:
Whatever that means.

Rob Bell:
Whatever that means.

Tommy, favourite colour?

We got one?

Tom Pellereau:
I love a kind of a sky blue.

Really kind of sunny, sunnysday blue sky.

I love that colour.

Rob Bell:
The wall behind you, Tommy, is a kind of grey blue?

Tom Pellereau:
It's a bit more grey.

So I too don't make many decisions about the internals of this house.

And I have a bit of a laugh with Sarah.

It's like, OK, so what version of blue grey are we going to have in this room?

Kind of thing.

And it's pretty much all those colours.

As a result, our kids love really, really bright colours.

Jono Hey:
Rebelling against their parents.

Rob Bell:
It is, isn't it?

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, yeah.

Rob Bell:
Well, it doesn't surprise me that blue has featured in both of your favourite colours, because blue is the most popular colour across the board, it seems.

Between 23% in Indonesia and I don't know why I'd say Indonesia.

I think this is the top 10 of the top 10 countries in the world of where blue is the favourite colour.

23% of people in Indonesia, 33% with a top in Great Britain, like blue the most of the colours listed, which is, you know, blue, red, green, purple, black, pink, yellow, orange, white, brown.

Tom Pellereau:
Is that because we're always wishing for blue skies?

Cause we're always hoping that it would stop raining soon.

Rob Bell:
It is interesting because what affects you or what influences your favourite colour?

And has it always been your favourite colour?

Has your favourite colour changed over time?

Tom Pellereau:
I used to love green.

I used to really like grass green, love that kind of colour.

And I do switch between the two, I think I find.

Rob Bell:
I'm a little bit influenced by the football team that I support.

I love orange and a good flash of orange.

I really, really enjoy in my clothes, in bits and bobs.

There's a cat behind me there.

Things like political parties, you might see.

They're always wearing a particular colour type.

That's maybe not their favourite colour, but I bet you'd be hard pushed to find, let's say for example, a Tory who says that their favourite colour is red.

And there's brand loyalty in stuff like that as well.

You know, things like Coca-Cola and Pepsi.

If you were a die-hard Coca-Cola fan, you know, your favourite colour is probably red.

Food, your favourite food, all these things, I think probably influence our favourite colours.

Tom Pellereau:
So we use pink, bright pink in my Star Pro brand a lot.

So I do really, and I have a very bright pink suit.

I have pink shoes.

I have pink ties as a result of this.

And I do really quite enjoy wearing these very bright pinks.

It's kind of a bit ridiculous, but I do because of the branding, because I enjoy doing that.

Rob Bell:
Well, what's more, you are a trendsetter, so, you know, look out London.

Jono Hey:
Rob, I'm pretty sure that your dad was, was he not just having you on?

Because my dad used to say, you know, back in the 50s, the world was black and white.

Rob Bell:
But did he?

I think, I'm pretty sure what they meant was that, you know, the newspapers and TV and photographs was all black and white.

That's what I'm assuming he was making.

Or maybe this is just like in the dad's handbook.

Jono Hey:
I think it's in the dad's handbook.

Yeah, it's less than three.

Rob Bell:
From that era?

Jono Hey:
Yeah, but they all used to live in black and white, that colour only arrived in the 50s or something.

Rob Bell:
So what was, what was your reaction to that?

Did you go, oh, okay.

Jono Hey:
I think it's a pretty good dad joke I've used.

Tom Pellereau:
I think the equivalent today is that the mobile phones and phones didn't exist.

And I don't think children get that.

They're like, sorry, what?

No iPads, no internet, no, it's, I think that's probably the today's equivalent of, historically it was black and white.

Jono Hey:
We had to plug everything in.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, what?

Jono Hey:
You're joking.

Rob Bell:
What is this video player?

Yeah, we're going down a different route.

But there's loads to colour, right?

There's, I mean, we could probably do a whole episode on colour.

I think you've got some sketches around about colour, haven't you, Jono?

I have.

Jono Hey:
I've got some more in mind that I've never done actually as well.

Rob Bell:
Oh, really?

Jono Hey:
I think there's some really interesting things about it, but we could save that for an...

Rob Bell:
Well, let's do an episode on it.

Shall we?

We'll do an episode in the future.

OK, we'll make that happen.

Done.

Good.

So blue is the colour, podcasting is the game.

And whilst the three of us here at Sketchplanations, the podcast, might only cover a very small proportion of the colour spectrum with our tonal preferences.

Our palette of propositions and topics in this podcast series are about as diverse as they come.

What will it be this week?

Let's find out.

Let's podcast.

This episode, we'll be discussing Goldilocks Tasks, the sweet spot of knowledge and ability for any given task to bring about flow and mastery.

It's not too hard, it's not too easy, it's just right.

In a moment, we'll hear from Jono how this sketch came about, but before that, let me remind you that you should be able to see this sketch on your screens now as the artwork for this episode, but if not, you can follow the link in the podcast description along with links to all the other sketches that we'll reference in this episode.

I would also love to hear from you, our listeners, with examples of your Goldilocks tasks or anything that you want to tell us about, and you can e-mail us on hello at sketchplanations.com, and we'll be going through a selection of your correspondence since the last episode at the end of the podcast.

All right then, Jono, let's kick off as usual.

Can you please explain this sketch and tell us why this was a phenomenon that you wanted to communicate through Sketchplanations?

Jono Hey:
Yeah, sure.

I first came across Goldilocks Tasks with a name for it from Dan Pink, who wrote a really excellent book called Drive, which is about what motivates us, what drives us.

And there's lots of interesting things in there.

And actually, there's one of my other sketches, which is one of my favourites, which is also from that book.

Goldilocks Tasks, in some way, I think it's from his chapter about mastery.

And the view is that mastery is one of the things that kind of intrinsically motivates us, right?

Intrinsically, we like to get better at what we're doing.

And that makes us want to keep going at stuff.

Rob Bell:
And so-

That's what you mean by the word mastery, like continual progress with a skill or a task.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, like improving yourself.

Like, and I'm sure you felt it.

I'm sure you've all felt it, right?

Like, actually, people are intrinsically motivated to get better at stuff.

And Goldilocks Tasks is this lovely name for tasks which hit it just right.

And those are the ones where you are actually motivated at the end of it, as opposed to demotivated, because you can do it both ways.

And so Goldilocks Tasks are ones that are not too easy, that they become boring, but also not too hard, that you switch off because you can't do it.

So Goldilocks Tasks are right in the middle where they're just right.

And so I read about it in the book, but it's just such an obvious simple spectrum to have somebody in the middle.

And I've got, I don't know, three faces, a bored face, confused and giving up face.

And then somebody who's kind of looks like they're getting stuck into stuff right in the middle.

And so that's where Goldilocks Tasks come from.

And it's something I could definitely relate to.

So I thought it was worth sharing.

Rob Bell:
And I can relate to all three of the figures in the sketch as well.

Jono Hey:
Definitely.

Rob Bell:
I don't, I was going to say, and now I'm thinking about it through as I'm thinking it through as I'm now speaking, I was going to say, I don't mind a kind of menial task that's repetitive and a bit too easy, but only for a certain amount of time if I'm in the right mood.

I think that's probably the caveat around that.

But then, because then it does become boring and you just want it to finish.

But then the too hard, it really is the kind of, as you've done in your sketch, the kind of, huh, what?

Where am I going to start with this?

This is a nightmare.

And there's no motivation, I think, for me, would be my reaction to that.

Jono Hey:
I think, you know, it's a bit like, to me, like chess is quite a nice, easy example you could relate to.

Like, if we go play Garry Kasparov or whoever is number one in the world, right?

You're just not going to stand a chance and you're going to get destroyed in like 20 moves and not have any chance, you know, not get anywhere.

And pretty soon that will not get very fun.

That will get not so fun.

On the other hand, playing against somebody who it's their first chess game and you beat them every time or Garry Kasparov playing you perhaps, then it probably is not that fun for them.

But you find it like a really engrossing chess match would be one where you're both kind of matched around the same levels and you feel like you have a chance to win.

They feel like they have a chance to win.

And that's very motivating, but the extremes are completely not motivating at all after perhaps the first game at any rate.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, agreed.

Let's park the kind of mastery side as this intrinsic motivator, I think, is the kind of words you've used, Jono, and I am intrigued by that.

But have you guys got examples of Goldilocks tasks for you?

Things that you've done or that you do regularly that you feel really hit that sweet spot of being motivated because of the kind of challenge it gives you, but it's not too easy, it's not too hard.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, one of the ones that I enjoy a lot is playing tennis.

But I do find that you've got to find the right partner.

And there's someone I play at tennis who we're very evenly matched.

We don't play as, neither of us play that much.

And so it kind of works really well.

And we work doing a lot of practice.

He also quite likes doing drills and little skills.

And so we have a really enjoyable hour.

And he also doesn't like playing matches that much.

Some people play against all they want to do is play a match.

And that's not kind of why I'm playing tennis.

I'm playing to kind of enjoy it and try and improve on certain strokes.

So for me, and I think both all of us probably come back to sport quite a lot with this.

In the work situation, I think finding that Goldilocks in your work can be very, very tricky.

And I wonder, Jono, do you find Goldilocks in your work quite regularly?

Jono Hey:
Yeah, it depends which work you're talking about.

But I was thinking some of the work where I would put as Goldilocks tasks that I find motivating, like not obvious, but not too hard either.

Something like writing copy for a user interface or something like that, or like rearranging an interface to work better, like an app that people are using and seeing what's wrong with it and going, I know that I can make this better.

And it's not completely obvious how to make it better.

But I know that if I work at it, I'm going to get something that's going to be clear and it's going to all make sense.

That's quite sort of Goldilocks tasks for me, where I look at it and I know there's something wrong and I know I can make an impact, but it's not immediately obvious what the right thing is.

So I'm going to have to work at it.

Rob Bell:
Can I poke a bit on that, Jono?

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

Rob Bell:
So when you sit down to address that task and you don't have the answer in your head, it's not immediately obvious.

Is that a question of confidence in your knowledge and experience and maybe ability to research that and come up with a solution based on the fact that you have done this kind of problem solving before?

Because sitting there, when you don't know what the answer is, and if you didn't know how to get to that answer, I think it could veer towards the more challenging end.

Like, I don't know where to start with this.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, I remember a situation when I was working at a company called Nutmeg, which did online investing, and we'd done just basic investment products, and the MD wanted to launch a pension.

And I remember he brought somebody in who was able to launch a pension.

But I remember him saying, like, it's not just everybody you can ask, make a pension.

Like, how do you, where do you even start?

I wouldn't even know where to start.

What, like, yeah, I could design some kind of interface or something, but like, that's not a pension.

What is a pension?

I don't know where to go.

Tom Pellereau:
Who do you need?

What do you need?

Jono Hey:
What?

And so it's quite interesting for me, that would have been like, I don't know where to start.

Like, quite stressful.

When it comes to the UI stuff.

Yeah.

Rob Bell:
UI, sorry, UI user interface stuff.

Jono Hey:
Sorry, yeah, yeah, where you're designing.

I was reading this book by Biz Stone, who was one of the co-founders of Twitter.

And he said an interesting thing about, he was always coming up with ideas, everything, like for creative guy.

And he said, one of the things about having ideas is you actually have to be an entrepreneur to be creative.

You have to have confidence in your ideas before you've even had the ideas.

You have to think that you're going to come up with ideas which are going to solve this.

And I bet you have that a bit too, Tom.

It's not like you sit there and go, there's no, there's no solution to this problem.

I can't possibly start.

You think, maybe if I work at this, I'm going to get there.

And I think that's the sort of feeling I have working on the user interface.

Where you're like, I've had enough experience to know that this could be better.

And now I'm going to apply some principles and I've got some knowledge in my locker that I'm going to put towards this and it's going to get there.

But I don't know what that is yet, but I'm sure I'm going to get there.

Tom Pellereau:
Yes.

Jono Hey:
So that kind of thing.

Tom Pellereau:
Yes.

So within my business, I'm often involved in the new and different things.

That's obviously in terms of the product development, but also like opening new retailers.

So we're expanding quite a lot in Europe at the moment.

And bringing on a new retailer can be really challenging.

At the beginning, it's bewildering because they can send these huge documents across or it becomes quite clear that really they don't know how it works at their end either.

As you say, Jono, at the beginning you're like, okay, I know I've done this before with three or four or five.

And so I know we will work this out, team.

But at the moment, it just feels either totally bewildering or totally impossible.

And it'll probably get worse before it gets better.

But think of that one that we did before where it did work out.

Think of six months ago where we had that return and it wasn't working.

We were getting all these problems, but we did sort it out.

Eventually we will get there.

And it's a really nice quote, Jono, as you said.

Jono Hey:
I've never done this before, but I wonder if professionally, if you looked at people's LinkedIn profiles or CVs, and you went back to the bullet points on the early jobs and the bullet points on the next job and the bullet points on the next job, I think you might see the Goldilocks task progressions.

Like at the beginning, I did this thing because that was quite hard for me there.

At the end, I started a business, something which is messy and uncertain, and it would be impossible maybe if you were just starting out kind of a thing.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, and some examples from stuff I do, I find woodwork.

Jono Hey:
I was going to ask you about that, yeah.

Rob Bell:
It's some of the projects that are a bit more challenging that I make more challenging because they're, you know, there's more than one way to skin a cat, right?

If you need to put two pieces of wood together, you could just bang some nails in and join two pieces of wood, you know, and that could suit the purpose, depending on the aesthetic you're after.

I enjoy pushing myself and trying to do things in a slightly more difficult way.

And it takes so much longer, and I'll get it wrong loads of times, and I'll have to start again.

But I enjoy that.

And I do feel like that is my kind of Goldilocks task area, as long as I have the right tools to do it.

Because if I don't have the right tools, then you start trying to bodge it with the tools that you've got, and then it's not, then it becomes too hard.

Then I get a bit frustrated with it, and it's not Goldilocks.

It's definitely not Goldilocks.

I'm interested that you said writing copy, Jono, because I find writing can get there.

All right, after dinner, talks, that kind of thing.

And it does take me quite a bit to get started.

And when I sit down, and this is why I wanted to ask you this question earlier, Jono, when I sit down, I don't necessarily know, I don't have the solution, I don't have this picture of where I'm going to take this talk, where I'm gonna take this piece of writing.

But if I just start writing, and I'll have little bits, and I'll do a bit that I go, oh, that's probably towards the beginning, there's some stuff here in the middle, I've got a thought for an ending bit here.

It does slowly start to come together, and at that point where it's coming together, that's very much becomes Goldilocks task for me.

I'm like, oh, this is great.

I don't feel like this is too hard anymore.

I'm motivated to do this.

This is definitely a challenge.

I'm not bored by this, and it's in that lovely, lovely sweet spot.

And the final area which I really enjoy is, this is very specific, the hardest IKEA furniture builds.

The easy ones, that's too easy, I get a bit bored with that.

But the hardest ones there possibly are, great, yeah.

Oh, don't worry, I'll have it up in two hours.

It says you need three people, don't worry, I'll figure it out, I'll get it done.

Tom Pellereau:
No, no, no, I don't want your help.

No, I don't want to do this all on my own.

Rob Bell:
In fact, tie one of my arms right behind my back, then I feel like I'm Goldilocks in this to the max.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, I think the bit about the writing is a bit like the blank paper sort of syndrome, isn't it?

You don't know where to start, you could start anywhere, it's just hard.

And then once you start, as you say, you start getting in, you start breaking it down.

And I think it's a classic sort of thing with like, like if a kid is stuck with their homework, and they don't know what to do, you go, okay, well, let's take it one bit at a time.

What do we know?

Should we write that down?

What do we not know?

Okay, what's the next bit?

And then it sort of starts to come clear.

But that's the-

Rob Bell:
It's the jigsaw puzzle, isn't it?

Jono Hey:
Yeah, yeah, you're like, how can we possibly fit this together?

Well, let's start with the edge pieces, because we can do those.

And then you make something that was impossible, sort of tractable.

I was thinking, though, about your woodwork.

It's quite interesting, because I thought you might bring that up.

And woodwork's this-

Rob Bell:
I always bring it up, that's why.

Jono Hey:
No, no, because it's good.

I like-

I love it as a skill building.

Because you're motivated through mastery of that alone.

Like, yeah, you make nice things, but you might do it, even if you never use the things, potentially.

I don't know.

Rob Bell:
I do.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I'll just go out and do a dovetail joint for the sake of it, and not building anything, just two bits of wooden dovetail joint it, just because, I mean, that's less so these days.

But when like the pandemic was great for that.

Jono Hey:
What shall I do for another dovetail?

No, but I think it's first of all, it's self-directed, right?

So you've got control over like, what are you going to do there?

As opposed to somebody saying, Rob, I need another 10 dovetail joints.

Rob Bell:
That's true.

Yeah.

Jono Hey:
Which might be a bit different.

And then woodworking is this interesting one where it has this enormous scope and range of quality that you can do.

Like I did a dovetail joint when I was 12 in design and technology, and it was not as nice as the ones that you're doing now.

So there's like a huge, huge amount of scope for you to develop your skills.

But if you take some other things, which probably are on the low end of the Goldilocks task, I was thinking about, whenever I think of what's a boring job, I used to think of like what a toll booth is, and no disrespect to people who are doing toll booths, because I've never done it.

But it seems like that, you know, there's, you've probably done it for an afternoon, and maybe you know everything there is to know about toll booths.

You know, pay your money, hand it, next, next.

And there's maybe not a lot of scope for being brilliant at it compared to what you're doing, even if it's another joint.

That joint could be amazing.

Whereas this next card might go two seconds earlier if you beep the card a little bit faster.

Tom Pellereau:
I don't know.

Jono Hey:
So perhaps there are differences there.

It's a bit like also, you know, working in a McDonald's on a particular station versus, you know, trying to run your own restaurant.

Yeah.

Tom Pellereau:
And I think, as Rob, you said earlier, I think that's the sort of the secret of management and good systems and amazing companies, where somehow McDonald's have managed to make that a really good job.

I think with them, with the STARS system and the development programs that they have, and the people like do do that and do work their way up, because they kind of see that they could, if they wish to, like become the manager one day.

I think there is an amazing transition through some of these incredible organizations.

And certainly as a manager of a fairly small company, trying to understand from my team, their Goldilocks, trying to make sure that the tasks are not too difficult, not too easy, but also are stretching them each month as they go forward.

That we're lucky to have some fantastic sort of 20, 30 year olds who work for me.

And it's, you know, trying to stretch them, trying to ensure that they're in their Goldilocks the whole time is really, really challenging, but can be amazingly rewarding for them and for the business, if you can somehow get it right.

And I think a lot of companies are really good at doing that, which is amazing.

Jono Hey:
There has to be a deliberate, like somebody's got to think about it.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
To make it happen.

I've given the example before that video games are just amazing at keeping you in the Goldilocks sweet spot all the time.

You know, take the most basic like, and they're so much better now, but like first Mario's or something, the first level is dead easy.

There's one guy to jump over and one thing to hit.

Tom Pellereau:
Yes.

Jono Hey:
And then the last level, you're doing like these ridiculous things.

You know, how do they get from here to here?

Well, we kept you in the in the Goldilocks zone the whole way through stepping up all of these levels.

And that's a bit like a bit like a career working at something.

By the end, you've got somebody, you know, jumping on bombs and throwing fire and dodging things.

Rob Bell:
I was when I was talking to somebody in the week about Goldilocks, us video games was the example they came up with straight away.

Yes.

I was going to say notoriously, but I think the word is probably famously designed to keep you in that Goldilocks zone, which is great.

It's a very clever design process to be doing that, right?

Tom Pellereau:
With my son playing Fortnite, he's like, Daddy, do you want to play?

I'm like, I have not got the first clue how to play this game.

And he's like, it's fine.

You know, the controller does this and I'm dead within about 30 seconds.

He's like, OK, well, we'll try and find another level.

And eventually finds a level where I can kind of not die immediately.

And I'm sort of wandering around.

Jono Hey:
In many ways, if you're if you're just designing software, you see it.

So not just games, but even like like an Apple phone, you hide the advanced functions, right?

Like, so you don't.

It should work to a basic level just by pressing the button.

It should be obvious.

And then once you've used it for a bit, you're like, oh, I wonder if I can do this.

And then you're like, oh, yeah, this is how I do that.

And then it's a soft dish like it progressively reveals more features as you get more accomplished with it.

And so even even though it's not it's not super obvious, you're not necessarily going through levels.

And sometimes it might have an onboarding which says, hey, now, have you tried setting this up?

I think you do that if you're designing things for people, you're trying to keep it in their Goldilocks zone as well.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, what you said, you know, famously with video games rather than notoriously, and I wonder in some respects of social media is a bit more notoriously in the fact that I suspect there is a lot of things that are being designed to try and keep you in your personal kind of Goldilocks of scrolling through of seeing videos of, you know, I don't know if it's really Goldilocks or more like insomnia that you kind of get when you're kind of death scrolling through going, I should really go and do something else, but I'm still scrolling on this.

Rob Bell:
I think the difference is, and this might segue us nicely into where I want to take this conversation next, the difference is perhaps around it being a task where there's some kind of sense of reward or accomplishment at the end of it, right?

Which I don't necessarily get from social media.

Is that the difference there?

And it comes, and I want to get us back to that feeling of flow and of mastery of a skill or a task or something.

Jono Hey:
You're not sure, are you mastering social media?

Am I getting better at scrolling through Instagram the more I do it?

Rob Bell:
I am so fast now.

I can take in so much.

Jono Hey:
I absorb all these posts.

Rob Bell:
I don't sleep for days sometimes.

Jono Hey:
Man, you're really good at that.

Tom Pellereau:
Expert user of social media.

In our family, I do the dishwasher, Sarah does the laundry.

This is an actual thing.

One of the reasons I wonder about that is because I actually really quite enjoy doing the dishwasher because it's like a 3D puzzle.

It's like my determination every night to get every single item in that dishwasher, which sometimes results in me going, oh, okay, just going to have to repack the whole thing just for the sake of having to wash a couple of dishes by hand.

It's a real piece of geometry and art.

Whereas the times that I do help with the laundry, I find it just really dull and boring.

But I remember talking to my mom about it, and my mom would have these fun games within it.

It's like, oh yes, you've got to matching the socks.

She quite enjoyed the puzzle making of matching socks together.

I was like, clearly I've got this all wrong, that actually laundry is really fun if you can find a game in it.

But I'm going to stick to my dishwasher.

I've got a game going on that.

Rob Bell:
Do you feel like there is progress in your dishwasher skills?

Dishwasher packing skills, Tommy.

Because that, we're saying, is part of the Goldilocks in that it is a pattern of improvement.

Tom Pellereau:
So I was thinking about that the other day and going, Tommy, you're just repeating the same things.

And unless there's a dinner party and you've got some really tricky stuff together.

So is there any improvement you could got here?

And I thought, well, I tell you what, I undo the tray that holds the cutlery the whole time, and I'm the one who stacks it and I'm the one who empties it.

So could I improve this tool?

I was like, I tell you what, what if I put, always put all the knives in one of the little boxes, you know, the kind of the tray bit that you hold, it's got like six compartments, all the knives in one, all the spoons in another, all the forks in another, all the small spoons in another.

It's like, it's a bit more of an ask when you're loading it, but not that much more.

But when you come to unload it, you just grab all the knives, put them in, grab all the spoons.

It's like, I've actually, I think I've found a level of improvement here.

It's potentially not the best example of flow or Goldilocks because ultimately I'm just doing a dishwasher every day for the rest of my life.

Rob Bell:
It's definitely in the category of task, right?

So in that sense, it works.

Tommy, there's no right or wrong when it comes to Goldilocks task.

It's whatever is in your world that you feel.

Jono Hey:
Sounds like you were quite driven.

Rob Bell:
Suits your skills, yeah.

Tom Pellereau:
Well, maybe this is an aspect of enjoying life, is to try and put some tasks, you get the opportunity to stretch yourself and to find that Goldilocks and other tasks, you just have to get done and you maybe don't want to.

But if you can find a way to put that task into a Goldilocks, then maybe you'll enjoy life more.

Jono Hey:
By the way, I've never done a sketch on like the best way to load a dishwasher properly because I think it's too controversial.

I don't want to get involved there.

But I remember doing an assembly line equivalent, like temping job way back in my teens.

And we were putting together like gift hampers for Christmas with like shampoo and a moisturizer and a flannel and stuff like that.

And so there were all these stations and one guy was like arranging like, you stand here, you stand here, we'll bring a palette, this and that.

And obviously, if you were just doing your bit, which was like picking up the shampoo, putting it in, and then moving it to the next person, that got pretty boring, pretty quickly.

But then if you started like if you if you made that sort of mindless and you knew what you're doing, you could start to think now about the whole thing.

It was quite interesting.

It reminded me of your dishwasher going, well, it'd be easier if we put the flannel in before the shampoo.

So should you and I swap places?

And then actually, if you don't put the palette here, but we put the palette there, then it really, you know, and I remember, like that suddenly got quite interesting.

And it was like this sort of very mundane task, but you can you could start to go, how do I optimize this?

I remember I remember finding it really quite interesting.

Rob Bell:
I enjoy the the optimizing of a process like that.

I also enjoy the gamifying of a process like that, just for the sake of it, just because it might make it less efficient, but it makes it a bit more fun to do.

So instead of putting the palette here next to you, where you're going to get it, you put it on the other side of the way, and you've got to sprint across to get it before, before your baskets moved on, that kind of thing.

Jono Hey:
Run over by the forklift.

Rob Bell:
Can I guess what the female members of your family got for Christmas that year?

Jono Hey:
There were a few ones that didn't go quite right.

The ones with the shampoo at the back.

Have you ever heard of, I think it's called the Tom Sawyer Principle?

I've never done a sketch of it, but in the book, Tom Sawyer, he's tasked with painting a fence, and of course, he doesn't want to paint a fence, and so he goes about bragging about how lucky he is to be painting this fence, and how he wouldn't ever switch it, and then people are like, oh, well, maybe could I have a go?

And he's like, well, no.

I think pretty sure people pay him to paint the fence in the end, and he's just sat there watching them.

And so it's like about finding, yeah.

But people are probably quite happy painting the fence when they're doing it, as you say, like finding the joy in the mundane.

Rob, you once taught me a way of folding shirts.

Rob Bell:
Oh, yeah, I was thinking about that earlier today, actually.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, well, when I'm packing shirts for a trip, I don't mind doing the shirts, because I practice folding them, the Rob Bell method, to try and make them really nice.

And I don't always get them really nice.

And I think maybe I've got a bit better, but not enough better.

Rob Bell:
Nice.

I mean, I have to say, that's courtesy of my mum.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

Mother Bell.

Rob Bell:
She takes real pride in that, as do I.

And it's lovely to hear that you're still taking pride in that as well, Jono.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

Oh, good.

Maybe it needs a sketch sometimes.

But I'm pretty sure if you work in a shop selling shirts, maybe you learn some better methods, but maybe not.

Rob Bell:
Do you know, there is a method to do it in one way, where you pick it up, you pinch it in two bits, and you do this kind of flick over, bang, and it's perfect.

And you can also get those boards that you put it on to, and there's like a click clack that do that for shirts, but that's cheating.

But that wouldn't be a Goldilocks task for me in that sense.

It would just be too easy and I'd be bored.

Jono Hey:
It's a bit like mowing a lawn or something, making the stripes in the lawn or something.

You can do it really nicely, right?

Like you can have satisfaction in that.

Rob Bell:
There you go.

Again, that would be a Goldilocks task for me, but it's not difficult.

Jono Hey:
It's just the right skill level for me.

Rob Bell:
But because there's pride and there is pride in what it looks like afterwards.

I absolutely love it, but it's definitely not too difficult.

But it is easy or is it easy?

Jono Hey:
To do a really good job.

Rob Bell:
What I particularly enjoy is that when I go home, last week I was at Mum and Dad's and they have a lawn, and so I was very happy to mow that lawn.

But what I really enjoy about it is that their lawnmower has a few little quirks.

That makes it a bit more difficult.

And that then, when it jams up, you need to find a way or find the right implement to kind of unjam it without taking the whole thing apart.

I get a lot of enjoyment out of that.

That was great.

Plus the fact that you get that reward at the end.

Look at that beautiful lawn, look at those lines.

Jono Hey:
You know, when you go past a pancake stand and they have the round, flat metal surfaces in a circle and they're heated, and you order a pancake and they just pour it out and then they have a little sweeper.

And somehow they get it absolutely perfect to the edges of the circle and the pancake is just the right thickness and everything.

And then, yeah, if I try and do a pancake, it never ends up like that.

And it is a simple thing, but they do it so well that I'm quite jealous of it.

I'm quite jealous.

I want to be able to do that.

Rob Bell:
Which is lovely, because I think that brings us back to something we were talking about earlier, because once you'd mastered that, you'd be bored.

I think knowing you, you might get quite bored with that.

I might get bored.

Once you'd mastered it.

Tom Pellereau:
You'd be trying to do one with both hands.

Rob Bell:
Yes, with the left hand involved.

Jono Hey:
I don't know if you've, you know, like the squeegees in the shower to like do the glass.

Rob Bell:
Very satisfying once again, immediate results.

Jono Hey:
You use your left hand as well.

Rob Bell:
Oh, Jono, no.

Jono Hey:
Because the right hand is too easy.

So like once you get good with the right hand, switch hands.

Rob Bell:
Right, great bit of advice.

Jono Hey:
Then do it with your eyes shut.

Rob Bell:
Great bit of advice here.

I think what we say is Goldilocks tasks can be quite enjoyable, whether either at the time or at the end, it's because of the result that you've produced.

If there are tasks in your life that are a bit mundane, a bit boring, because they're too easy, what we're now suggesting, I think, try it with the other hand, and it might bring it back into the Goldilocks region, the Goldilocks task region.

Tom Pellereau:
Brushing your teeth is another one, which is surprisingly tricky.

Jono, are you finding you're getting that much better though with your left hand brushing your teeth?

Because after years of doing it, I still don't feel that I've actually improved.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, but your nose is really clean, Tom.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, just got to keep at it, mate.

Keep at it.

You'll get there.

You're in the just-too-hard zone.

Tom Pellereau:
It's too hard still.

Rob Bell:
Trying to round this off with thinking if we have any advice about Goldilocks' tasks.

They're obviously a lovely place to be, right?

A lovely way to be spending your time.

Jono Hey:
Do you think Leonel Messi is in the too easy?

Like when he plays football, it's just like, it's not fun because it's just too easy.

Rob Bell:
But there's always a way that he could be doing something different, right?

Or try and pull off a skill that he's not done before or...

Jono Hey:
Yeah, you're like, I'm so good, I'm going to do fancy stuff now.

Just for fun.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

And maybe that is the lesson Rob, that Goldilocks is a brilliant place to be, but it's a move, it moves.

So it's a case of trying to stretch yourself into it, but potentially also deliberately handicapping yourself.

If you find you've gone beyond, then you have to do something.

Jono Hey:
In the sketch, it seems wholly deficient now, as it's like this single point in time, right?

But it's not that at all.

It keeps moving and, yeah.

Rob Bell:
You're right, Tom, you're right.

You're gonna have to turn it into a 10 minute animation, Jono.

Based on what we talked about here.

Jono Hey:
Start with a dishwasher.

Have the level 10 at the end.

Rob Bell:
Well, listen, let's call that a day there.

Don't forget, we love to know what you have to say about Goldilocks Tasks and what your examples of it are.

Fascinating to hear that.

I do feel like it says a little bit about personalities, knowing where your sweet spot of these tasks, whether they're professional, whether they're domestic, whether they're within hobbies.

It's a really interesting aspect, I feel.

So let us know about those activities that really hits the sweet spot for you.

And you can email us on hello at sketchplanations.com.

And if you have a minute, it'd be great if you could leave us a review on your podcast player of choice.

That really helps us build our community and help bring new listeners in so they know what they can expect when they get here.

As we round off another discussion here on The Podcast, I feel like that in itself was a Goldilocks task for me.

I was curious and interested to know more.

I was learning.

It wasn't too much.

Tom Pellereau:
It wasn't too little.

Rob Bell:
What do you know, Sketchplanations, The Podcast, getting it juuuust right.

Thank you all for listening.

Until next time, go well, stay well.

Goodbye.

Jono Hey:
See ya.

Tom Pellereau:
Goodbye.

Rob Bell:
All music on this podcast is sourced from the very talented Franc Cinelli.

And you can find loads more tracks at franccinelli.com.