Finishing Lines - with Brendan Leonard

Rob Bell:
The most important role of a finishing line is to get you over the start line.

Tom Pellereau:
I sort of convinced, I was like, yeah, I've got this great idea.

Is there any chance I can come and see you in January when it will be finished?

And I didn't have anything at the time, but I was like, I reckon four, five months, I can get something working.

So I put this deadline, it was like the 10th of January, I was meeting her.

And so obviously I put that in and I didn't do anything about it for a couple of months.

Brendan Leonard:
I think of finish lines and deadlines.

What I call it is a fear-based fitness plan.

I sign up for an event and you have no option but to get in shape for it, or you're just you're gonna fail.

That works really well for me.

Talking to Dominatrix about the focusing power of a whip and where people cannot not be present when the whip is there.

I've never done that stuff, but it's a way of focusing, you know, it's a way of providing clarity.

Rob Bell:
Hello and welcome to Sketchplanations, the podcast.

In January 1982, Steve Callahan set sail alone from the south coast of Britain to cross the Atlantic in a small boat.

When only seven days out, a violent storm caused it to sink.

Left with just an inflatable life raft and minimal supplies, Callahan survived for 76 days adrift in the Atlantic Ocean.

Utilizing his knowledge of survival techniques, he caught fish, collected rainwater, and rationed his provisions.

Eventually, he was spotted and rescued by fishermen in the Caribbean, having drifted some 1,800 miles.

Callahan's resourcefulness and determination make his survival an inspiring tale of human ingenuity.

And so as we embark on another podcast adventure together, we implore you to be prepared, plan for the worst, hope for the best, pack suitable emergency rations, and remember the words of John Wayne.

Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.

I'm Rob Bell.

I can light a fire.

And joining me once again on this journey into the, well, into the pretty well known, it's head hunter-gatherer Jono Hey and master whittler Tom Pellereau.

Hello, my friends.

How are we?

Jono Hey:
Hello.

Tom Pellereau:
Hello.

Jono Hey:
Very well.

Tom Pellereau:
Thank you.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

Very good.

Rob Bell:
How do you guys feel about stories of survival?

Jono Hey:
Do you mention about stories of inspiration?

I thought that's quite, like, they were quite inspiring, aren't they?

You're like, wow, I had not heard that one.

Sounds mental.

Rob Bell:
I hadn't.

And I looked up quite a few stories of survival like that, and some were a bit more grizzly.

So I chose not to go into those at the beginning of the podcast.

But yeah, this chap, Steve Callaghan, and he wrote a book about it, as you definitely would, and lectures on survival and kind of the lessons from that as well.

And I think you're right, if you were to go and hear someone speak about that, you'd be very hard pushed not to.

I would be very hard pushed not to come away really inspired by those people.

Jono Hey:
In terms of, like, setting up an interesting story, you know, just mention the first two lines of it, and you're like, okay, I want to hear what happened.

How did the, how is this guy standing in front of me now?

Yeah.

Really good.

Rob Bell:
And there's loads of great films and books that have come out of survival stories as well, right?

Some fictional, like, I think Life of Pi was fictional, right?

But a lot of based on real events.

So I'm thinking like 127 Hours, yeah.

Aaron Ralston, I think his name was, he was out hiking.

Jono Hey:
He caught his arm under a boulder.

Rob Bell:
Yeah.

And yeah, we all know what happened to that, right?

There's Alive, the story of the Uruguayan rugby team plane crash in the Andes.

In fact, that's recently been remade into a film called Society of the Snow, which I thought was better.

The original Alive is excellent, if you have a chance.

The Revenant, you know, with, what's his face?

Jono Hey:
DiCaprio.

Rob Bell:
DiCaprio.

I didn't realize at the time, but that was based on the story of a, based on a true story of an American frontiersman and fur trapper touching the voids, Everest, you know, all those loads and loads and loads.

Yeah.

Jono Hey:
I think a lot of the US is sort of they have like foundational tales like Lewis and Clark trekking across the US and it must have been staggering journeys that, you know, going across unknown land over mountains, just rafting down a river where you don't know where it's going to go.

If there's going to be a waterfall around the corner or something like, yeah, incredible journeys.

Rob Bell:
I've never been anywhere that's like uncharted, right?

It's not on a map, so I'm pretty sure I haven't.

Jono Hey:
Not many people do.

Rob Bell:
No, not now.

Jono Hey:
It's quite hard.

You've basically got a satellite image from Google Maps of everywhere you go.

Rob Bell:
But there was a time when that's what people did, you know?

I did a documentary on Francis Drake going around the South of South America, and not wanting to go right around the Cape, so kind of plotting away through all these islands.

But you don't know what's there, because no one's been there, or no one's mapped it before.

No one's there to tell you, or look out for this.

Oh, it's mad.

Absolutely mad.

Jono Hey:
Exploring the bottom of the ocean, or cave systems still have a little bit of that.

Rob Bell:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
Where you might go, nobody has ever been here, but you have to go pretty mental to find those places, I think, these days.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, quite extreme.

Jono Hey:
I was thinking of, I mean, it's fictional, but The Martian was quite good.

Survival Tale.

Rob Bell:
That was good.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

Like, On Your Own, On Mars, Now What?

I thought that was pretty good.

Tom Pellereau:
That was really clever, because it felt like it was possible as well.

Like a lot of what they were doing felt semi-realistic, maybe hyper-realistic.

Rob Bell:
Which I think is why I enjoyed it so much, because it was science fiction, but it felt quite close to reality.

Jono Hey:
Quite sciency.

Rob Bell:
Quite sciency.

A little bit fictiony.

Tom Pellereau:
For more technical speech.

Rob Bell:
There's a new genre there.

There's a new genre of film category.

Jono Hey:
Science fictiony.

<v SPEAKER_5>Yeah.

Rob Bell:
I mean, what are the fundamentals of survival?

Tom Pellereau:
Well, instead of me saying that, my son Jack has turned 11 today, and he would love to give his answers.

Rob Bell:
Having survived 11 years, Jack.

All right, Jack, what are the fundamentals of survival?

<v SPEAKER_5>Um, shelter, a fire and some hunting gear.

And if you haven't got that, then what?

<v SPEAKER_5>Uh, hide up in a tree.

Brilliant.

You heard it here first, guys.

Nice one, Jack.

Thank you very much, buddy.

Jono Hey:
Bye.

Rob Bell:
Can you guys think of times when you've had to click into survival mode?

Jono Hey:
I mean, I've never been adrift in the Atlantic Ocean, thank goodness.

Rob Bell:
It's all relative, right?

So don't hold back, because it isn't adrift alone in the Atlantic.

Or caught in a snow drift on the way to the North Pole.

Jono Hey:
I was trying to think when you said survival, I was trying to think, what survival skills do I have?

And I was thinking maybe my best survival skill is the skills to plan so you don't have to be in survival mode.

Very good, Jono.

Rob Bell:
Very good.

Jono Hey:
Like making realistic choices, sensible plans, taking the right stuff, marrying well, letting people know where you're going.

It's very good.

Having a partner who will look after you when the going gets tough, keeping track of time, hiring guides who know the area.

That's my survival skills and that's why I'm here today.

Rob Bell:
That's genius, Jono.

Jono Hey:
I watch survival shows on the TV.

Rob Bell:
I've had a couple where I don't think I realized it was survival at the time.

If this goes even worse from now, then that's it.

Because I've got through it.

So you just think, okay, well, that wasn't great.

But I don't think you realize you're in survival mode until maybe you look back on it.

Jono Hey:
I mean, you've had one or two where you're pretty close.

Rob Bell:
You've had one or two where you're pretty close on the podcast before.

But I think, if I may, I think one of my strongest suits in a survival situation is kind of staying calm and kind of finding a slightly funny side to things, I think.

Jono Hey:
I was going to say that.

I can imagine you actually, not just finding it funny in retrospect, but finding it funny in the moment.

Maybe the going wasn't quite hard enough yet to really kick in for you.

Rob Bell:
I think there's a tinge of naivety about that though.

Jono Hey:
And being very lucky in the past, all of these things contribute to a nice, easygoing attitude like that.

Rob Bell:
Exactly.

Well, listen, however strong your survival instincts are, know that as a listener to this podcast, you'll always be taken care of.

We provide shelter, we provide sustenance, we provide optimism.

And so with our bags packed and our route charted, Jack, let's podcast.

In this episode, we're gonna talk about finishing lines and the fact that the most important role of the finishing line is to get you over the start line.

Now, you can see Jono's sketch for this as the artwork for the episode, and I'll include a link to it in the podcast description in case you want a closer look.

And I'm certain that many amongst you, our listeners, will have tales of journeys or expeditions or missions you've set out on where the thought of crossing that finish line or getting to the end point has been a major motivator.

And we'd love you to share those experiences with us.

If you'd like to send us your stories and thoughts on finishing lines, you can email us on hello at sketchplanations.com or you can head to the podcast website and leave a message on there, either through the contact form or if you're really brave, you can leave us a quick voice note, which would be ace.

Now then, to help us explore this topic of finishing lines, I am delighted to introduce a man who has crossed many.

Brendan Leonard is a writer and illustrator who regularly contributes to a number of celebrated publications, including Backpacker, National Geographic Outside and Adventures Cyclist.

He's written over a dozen books about the great outdoors and all kinds of adventures within it.

He's an amateur ultra runner slash ultra cyclist slash all-round ultra guy, really.

And most importantly for me, his work regularly makes me think whilst chuckling away out loud.

Brendan, welcome to the podcast.

It's lovely to have you on.

Brendan Leonard:
Thank you, Rob.

Thank you for that intro.

I feel great.

I can just log off now.

My day is made.

Rob Bell:
I've done a job of sorts there trying to describe to our listeners who you are, Brendan, and what you do, but I had to edit it back a fair bit because you do a lot of stuff, I think, is the best way to put it.

And a lot of stuff that I'm really into as well.

Have I missed anything key out of there in the list of the things that you do in your endeavors?

Brendan Leonard:
I'm a dad now, so that takes up a lot of time.

Our little guy is going to be two next month.

But yeah, I just kind of work really hard and try to avoid getting a real job, I guess.

So that's why I have to do all those different things.

Sometimes they don't make very much money.

Rob Bell:
So I have almost finished, and I think Jono, you have finished Brendan's latest book, Ultra Something, which I have massively enjoyed.

And I'm mentioning that now at the top because I feel like we might reference it a little bit through the podcast.

So listeners, if ever you get the chance, and I would just urge you if you're enjoying what you're hearing in the podcast here to look up that.

But there's also Semi-Rad, your, I guess, kind of catch-all website and the newsletter you put out every week, Brendan?

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah.

Yeah.

I guess that's my brand, I guess you would say if you were trying to do a brand, I guess.

But I just bought the website in 2011 and the social media handles for Semi-Rad, and I thought it was okay.

And then I didn't really know it was going to stick this long.

And people would like yell it at me when they saw me across a room, which is kind of awkward.

But that's it.

I'm stuck with it.

Jono Hey:
So yeah.

Rob Bell:
Awkward, but I'd say quite cool as well.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah, it's not bad.

I think about, sometimes I think about rappers who pick their rap name and they're like 16 and they got to live with it till they're like 50, you know.

Tom Pellereau:
It could be worse.

I've been a nail file guy for almost 20 years now, I think, which is a pretty weird kind of tag as well, or they're guided really badly on a show.

So yeah, it's funny how these things stick with you that you don't really think about at the time, but then suddenly like 10 years later, they're still really sticking with you.

Brendan Leonard:
Sometimes we choose them and sometimes they choose us, I guess.

Rob Bell:
Indeed.

Brendan, I think one thing that's key, perhaps at the start of our discussion is perhaps to give some context about where in the world you're from and where your playground tends to be for a lot of your outdoor pursuits.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah.

I grew up in the Midwest of the United States, in just like flat farm country in Iowa.

If anybody's, nobody's ever been there.

It's fine.

People in America don't know where it is.

And now I've lived in the mountain west for, jeez, since 2002, so it's coming up on half of my life.

So I live in Montana now, but spent a good, almost 15 years off and on in Colorado, and then bumped around the west in a van for about three years there.

So all over Utah, Colorado, Washington, Oregon, California.

And now I live in a house with a roof, and I have a toaster and coffee maker.

It's pretty great.

I'm pretty into it.

So, but I do a lot of, I've kind of done a little bit of everything in the outdoors, and now I mostly trail run and do ultra marathons.

But yeah, I kind of did a lot of climbing, mountaineering, backcountry skiing and backpacking, a little bit of whitewater rafting and stuff like that.

And kind of really just grateful now to have a couple hours every week to go run up to the top of the mountain at the end of the street here, and then come back and help with changing diapers or whatever it is.

We're doing.

Rob Bell:
I mean, it does.

So for any of our listeners who are anything like the three and slash four of us, because I don't think you are cut above Brendan, but that's, you know, that's okay.

Brendan Leonard:
Man, I love this podcast.

Thank you, Rob.

It's great.

Rob Bell:
Well, we're all sitting here listening to that just wetting ourselves.

That is just brilliant.

It sounds amazing.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah.

When you compress your whole life down to like three sentences, it sounds really cool.

You know, you're like...

Rob Bell:
That's what podcast is all about, Brendan.

Brendan Leonard:
That's so great.

Rob Bell:
Now, I've watched a couple of your public speaking engagements online as well.

And I think this comes across in, or it's something you address in quite a bit of your writing as well, the theme of making a success of something.

It feels like to be a strong element to me of what you communicate about.

And correct me if I'm wrong.

I think a lot of that relates to outdoor pursuits, but maybe even more relates to making the success of being creative and just being creative and getting your stuff out there.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah, I think, you know, I teach writing workshops.

I teach a writing workshop every year.

And I think the thing I run into while talking to people who want to write a book or even just a short story or just, you know, the people who are either in my class or message me online, you know, to ask for a little bit of advice or whatever is that people's biggest obstacle is kind of giving themself permission to do something and oftentimes to just do it badly at first.

I don't know how much profanity you guys use in this podcast, but if people are looking for a starting point, I'm always like, make a piece of shit, just do that, make a bad thing and then you have somewhere, at least you've got something, you know.

But to start is the biggest, the hardest thing for so many people and to avoid that.

It's true in running, it's true in making art, writing, any of these things.

It's pretty easy to, actually, I wouldn't say it's easy, but my experience is mostly learning by doing just everything which involves a lot of failure at the beginning or what a lot of people would, I guess, call failure, but.

Jono Hey:
Brendan, I mean, I've been enjoying a lot of your material for a long time, but the thing that made me reach out to you, I was looking back, was actually you did a series on Make It, and it was like 25 thoughts about making and creating.

I know I think you made a book of that, was it 50 myths and truths about creating?

Yeah, and that, I love all the outdoor stuff, but actually that was the one, that series was what made me go, actually I felt like you were talking to me throughout that.

Brendan Leonard:
Oh, I appreciate that because I don't think, that's a minority of the people who follow me, and I wish I could do more of that because I think about that all the time.

Rob Bell:
Oh, really?

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah, the outdoor stuff is just how I basically make a living, and I would rather talk to people about creativity and art all the time, but I'm just like, it's not quite paying the bills.

It's not going to pay the bills.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, fair enough.

Brendan Leonard:
That book, I've given away copies.

I don't know if I've even sold a thousand copies, but it's one of those things where I'm like, I just self-published it.

Like, this is out there if you want it, and I don't need to sell a thousand copies of it.

It'll keep timeless thing.

I feel like it's just kind of talking smack to you.

Like, just, okay, just start.

50 different ways.

Don't be afraid.

Go for it.

Everybody has imposter syndrome in more nuanced ways for sure.

Jono Hey:
It will get some people started, right, though.

You know, you don't have to influence in a thousand people's lives.

Or 500 or 10 is good, right?

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah, I hope so.

Yeah, for sure.

Rob Bell:
All three of us, Brendan, have kind of been in that position before where you're maybe slightly nervous about getting something out there that you've created and you're going to put it out.

And is it absolutely ready?

Can I, should I spend another two weeks on this making it right?

And, you know, all three of us in our creative endeavors have done that.

And, you know, you call it failures or whatever.

You do learn loads very, very quickly about how this can be improved.

Oh, yes, I should have done that.

And I'm sure this is part of, you know, what you talk about is that you can't give yourself a hard time for that.

You just got to keep riding that wave and taking it on.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah.

It's funny you should say that because I like did all these things to self-publish this new book, Ultra Something.

And it was like, you know, it was all me.

You know, I did all the illustrations.

I did all the layout, everything.

Got to like publicity going to this book tour.

Everything's me, you know.

And, you know, I had this paid an editor, you know, to help me developmentally edit the book.

But that was the only cost.

And everything was like it just had to come together by May 23rd.

And it did.

And I was I was like sitting there signing copies of it to drop off at this warehouse where they ship the signed copies.

And I like flipped through a page and I was like, oh my God, these quotation marks are upside down.

It's just one.

So I'm like page seven.

Rob Bell:
And I was like, oh yeah, page seven.

Yeah, I did pick up on that.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah, did you?

I think it may be page nine.

I don't know.

It's like it's in the first ten pages.

And I was just like, huh, I could go back in.

And the way books are distributed here, I'd have to go correct it in two different places.

And then the book would not be available for like 72 hours.

And I was like, you know what?

That's just the way it's going to be.

It's going to be like that.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

But I mean, that's, you know, all the things you want to pay attention to, that's probably the least of the problems.

You know, it's like, that's one little thing, you know?

And of course, my dad will find a typo in the book at some point he's reading and tell me about it, you know?

Rob Bell:
But that's what dads are there for, right?

You know, that, yeah.

We will use constructive in inverted commas here, the constructive criticism from an end.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah, exactly.

Rob Bell:
But we've all done it, right, Tommy?

You know, we talked about this in previous episodes, you know, with your products.

When is it ready to go?

Jono, with your sketches, how long do you spend on this?

And even getting started in the first place, editing and producing this podcast and getting that out.

You know, if I, I haven't listened back to our first episode, but it'd be different.

Not for a while anyway.

Brendan Leonard:
It's done.

Rob Bell:
That's the fun of it.

Brendan Leonard:
I think you can wait until you're like, think everything's perfect and you might be, you might wait forever, you know?

Like, oh, I'm not, I'm certainly not going to wait around until I'm a good artist, because that's just not going to happen.

So like, can I get the idea across in the sketch?

You know, does it, is it okay?

You know, do people understand it?

Rob Bell:
Sure.

Brendan Leonard:
Good.

Good enough then.

Rob Bell:
Once you've done it once or twice, right?

And you know, your hair hasn't set on fire and nobody's beaten you up in the street because of it.

You know, I do find you get more and more confidence to do more and not be as scared the next time.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah, for sure.

And I'm sure you guys have a little bit of this with the podcast.

And in even the book, Baby Jono, but it's like, you know, people say it's a launch.

It's just like, I'm like, it's not really a launch.

It's more like this plane that's just like trying to take off on this runway and it's like barely going to clear the trees.

And you for most of us, you're going to fail pretty small, right?

Like, yeah, if things are, if it doesn't go quite right, it's not like the whole world is going to notice.

Like Taylor Swift.

Yeah, that's a launch, right?

Like a lot of people are listening the first minute that's out.

But like for most of us, it's like going to be a slow, slow thing and you don't have a big audience at first.

Jono Hey:
Hello.

Hello.

I made a book.

Would you like to read it?

Brendan Leonard:
I said it was launching.

It's launching.

Rob Bell:
No?

Jono Hey:
Okay.

Rob Bell:
Well, listen, Brendan, we are delighted to have you on the podcast.

So let's get cracking on with this week's headline sketch called Finishing Lines.

So I guess first of all, in time-honored tradition, Jono, can you please describe your Finishing Lines sketchplanation?

And tell us a bit about where your inspiration for it came from.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, this one is a bit different than many sketches, because it's essentially just a quote that really struck me.

I also noticed that, funnily enough, most quotes have like a start and a finish.

It's like a first half and a second half, which is kind of interesting.

I'd never noticed that before.

Rob Bell:
Oh yeah, like the set up and the punch.

Jono Hey:
Exactly.

So just like this, the quote is, the most important role of a finishing line is to get you over the start line.

I came across this when I was reading a fun book, a sort of book you might like.

Brendan was by this guy called Mike Carter, and he decided to bike around the coastline of the UK.

And it's just his travels doing that.

And it was quite amusing.

And he happened to take this ferry down in the southwest of England.

And the guy who was running the ferry happened to be Stevie Smith.

And Stevie got talking.

And Stevie said that he was one of the two people who embarked on a human-powered journey around the world, which they called Expedition 360.

And so they had to get there all on their own steam.

And so he made it as far as Hawaii and apparently his partner Jason Lewis carried on going and finished the first apparently complete circumnavigation of the world all on human power 13 years later.

But anyways, for me, when I saw this crowd, I just thought it was so interesting because it was sort of counterintuitive in some ways to me.

Like I think it's so easy to think about the finish line as being the race and you're aiming towards the finish line.

But actually the finish of that bit doesn't even matter.

The point is the idea of a finishing line is what even got you out the first time lacing up your trainers or getting on your bike for the training.

And so that's what's in the sketch is somebody thinking about the finishing line, which is actually getting them out outdoors in the first place.

Simple as that.

Rob Bell:
So Brendan, how do you interpret this philosophy of using that finishing line as the motivator for a project or for training for a race or it could be any kind of endeavor really, I guess?

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah.

I think of finish lines and deadlines that work like this for me.

And one of the things that I would I call it as a fear based fitness plan.

So not like I want to lose weight or I want to like run faster or like whatever.

It's more like I sign up for an event or I commit to some sort of adventure with a friend and you have no option but to get in shape for it or you're just not going to, you're going to fail and that works really well for me.

So there's that finish line where, okay, I have to finish running a half marathon or a marathon or whatever it is.

And you're not just doing that off the couch.

So you have to, you know, maybe it's three months away and you know you have to start training or you have to put together some sort of plan.

So that's always worked for me.

And that's, I think that's why this particular sketch really resonates with me.

And I've recommended to everyone, honestly, it's like one of those things.

Like I can definitely look in the mirror and be like, yeah, I'm doing okay.

I look okay.

Right.

I give myself a lot of, a lot of leeway in that.

But if you're running like 10 miles all at once or, or 25 or whatever, whatever it is you're going to do, there's no, you don't get any slack.

You have to run the 10 miles.

It's like, so you have to do it.

It's going to, it's going to make you very honest.

It's a lot better than, yeah, I'm good.

I'm in good shape.

You know, it'll prove to you if you are not.

So that's the way I think of it.

Jono Hey:
Brendan, I have, there's a sketch about forcing functions.

And the example I used for forcing functions was exactly that, was a marathon and it has a picture of somebody going from a couch and then basically scared about the prospect of a marathon coming up and where they have to get to.

And that just forces you to be ready, yeah, as you say, it's just incredibly effective.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah, my, the way I've drawn it is in a different book.

I think, I think it's in my book, I Hate Running and You Can Too, but it's a calendar and like, you know, it's like the race day is here and like all the days leading up to it, just say oh shit, oh shit, oh shit, oh shit, like, it's the same concept.

You procrastinate it long enough and you're definitely gonna, like, okay, I guess I'll have to do all the work now.

Jono Hey:
Everybody should follow Brendan's stuff because he does the same topics but they're just so much funnier when you do it.

I love it.

Rob Bell:
It's brilliant.

Brendan Leonard:
I don't know about that.

Jono Hey:
It's so good.

Rob Bell:
Don't use so hard, yours are humorous as well, Jono.

Thank you, thank you.

Jono Hey:
Brendan's, I'm like laughing out loud.

Tom Pellereau:
I Hate Running and You Can Too is one of the best book titles I've ever seen.

Jono showed it to me when I was with it recently.

That's so good.

Rob Bell:
It is brilliant.

And that is definitely how I would just kind of describe my relationship with running.

You know, I don't really enjoy it.

I love running with a friend.

I love running if it means something to me.

And I'm training, I'm training to get, I'm training for something that I'm going to, it's going to be meaningful in some way or another.

But I don't kind of get up and go, yes, can't wait to get out and go for a run.

I never, never do that.

So if I didn't have something booked in, if I didn't have a finish line out there waiting for me, I wouldn't go out and run.

But it's important to me that I'm physically fit and that I'm healthy.

So that is the only way I can do that is by booking in finish line races throughout the year.

Tom Pellereau:
I'm with you.

I think that's very interesting because I think a lot of people would look at the three of you, certainly, and go, they must love running.

They must really love running because they spent so much of their life running.

And so therefore, you know, when I go out for a run and I really don't like running and I don't do it very often, and I don't put enough finish lines in, but I kind of go out and go, I'm not enjoying this.

Clearly, it's just not for me.

Like Rob must really love running.

And to hear you say, I'm not bothered either.

I don't like it.

It's like, OK, so actually no one really likes it.

It's just a good thing to do.

Rob Bell:
Let me give you two quotes from Brendan's latest book, Ultra Something.

You were describing a race and it's an ultra race.

So more than 26 miles.

And in this case, it's going to either have been a 50 mile or a hundred mile.

And you were talking about another lady and she said, she ran because it was fun.

I ran because it was not fun.

That was your take on it, Brendan.

And there's another one that I absolutely loved about this is, I just wanted to go and move on the trail for a few hours and do something difficult.

Describing why you wanted to go out and go for a run.

I love it.

I get it.

I get it.

But it's hard to explain.

Brendan Leonard:
The first quote is, it's about my wife.

Rob Bell:
It's about your wife.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah.

And I have friends who love running too.

And I'm, I kind of, we're friends, but we're not going to get that close.

Cause I'm like, really?

You'd rather, that's what you want to do first thing.

You don't want to sit around and drink some coffee and like.

Tom Pellereau:
My wife really enjoys running as well.

Oh, Sarah really wants to get up for a run.

Brendan Leonard:
Why?

Super weird.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I think there's like this, you know, I don't like work either, you know, but I can't not do that because of, you know, I have to pay for the house and stuff and we would starve.

So that's, but I don't know.

It's like, there's, I think there's just value in doing hard things that you don't like, no matter what they are.

At least that's a lie I've been telling myself for like 30 some years now.

Rob Bell:
Well, no, because then it, because then it feels that there's a sense of virtue about it, I think that I enjoy and that's fine.

And I'm so happy to be honest about that.

I get quite a lot from that feeling of virtue having done something either that's gone for a hard training run or I've completed.

For me, it's marathon running and trying to do it faster.

So kind of different kind of style of running to you, Brendan.

When it comes to running anyway, and when I achieve that, I feel great.

And that's there for a few days and then that's gone.

And then you have to look in for another one.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah.

Or you hope that the self-inflicted adversity helps you deal with real adversity in some way, where you're like, okay, this isn't going to be the hardest thing I've done, I've ever done, when it does, when life does, you know, blow up on you in some way.

You hope that those lessons you learn will help.

I'm not sure if that's always true, but.

Rob Bell:
There's definitely something that I relate to there as well, because you know, when you do put yourself in that real difficult position, that is an experience and you'll be having emotions and a physical feeling that the, you don't get that often in life, really.

You know, you really have to kind of go and seek those most difficult experiences out and make them happen.

But the fact that it hurts so much and pushes you and forces you to dig really, really deep, I think there is something unique about life in that and experiencing life in a slightly different way.

And so it's quite nice to go and look for it.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah, yeah.

Otherwise it just can bleed together into this like, what do we do?

What did we do in last year?

What do we actually do besides check emails and watch shows and live day to day to day?

But if you have the things to break it up and like the something you just need something really, really painful, that's what you need to do.

You know, and then and then you're just miserable and you're like, why am I doing this?

And your friend who's with you is like, you actually paid $300 to do this.

Like, shut up, man.

I don't, you know, it's all ridiculous.

And then you get done.

You're like, thank God.

I don't have to do that again.

And then you go back to your life, that's your answering emails.

Jono Hey:
And sign up for another one.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah.

And then you sign up for another one several months later because you forgot how much it sucked.

Rob Bell:
But I think the important thing about this, the sketch here with finishing lines is, it doesn't have to be a physical experience or race, you know?

So, I mean, Tommy, I was going to ask you about where, if you've ever used the visualization of the end of something or the completion of something, like getting this finished as the motivation to get you going on it in the first place.

Tom Pellereau:
I've had a couple in my kind of work life where, Sainsbury's, so, Brendan, I'm an inventor.

I create products for consumer products.

And I was selling to a very big retailer in the UK, Sainsbury's, I was selling them a nail file.

And I just had a baby and I was like, I'm pretty sure I can come up with a baby idea.

So I managed to get the contact details of the baby buyer.

And I sort of convinced, I was like, yeah, I've got this great idea.

Is there any chance I can come and see you in January when it will be finished?

And I didn't have anything at the time.

I had literally no idea.

But I was like, I reckon four or five months I can get something working.

So I put this deadline, it was like the 10th of January, I was meeting her.

And so obviously I put that in and I didn't do anything about it for a couple of months.

And then three months, you're like, oh, I've still got that meeting.

I don't have anything, but I also don't want to cancel it.

So I'm pretty certain and, you know, lo and behold, with a few weeks ago, I really worked something out and by the meeting, I had a really nice prototype and a very nice idea.

That's the nipper clipper, Jono.

That's the baby nail clipper that 10 years later is still selling very well.

The prototype just about held together in the meeting and didn't break, which was fortunate.

And it turned out to be a pretty good product.

And then lastly, we had our meeting today of when we are going to launch seven to 10 new products next year.

So it's like we've put that stake in the ground and that's the finish line.

And then we then work back all the things that have to happen.

And today we had to have a meeting for a certain part of that stage in order to meet that deadline.

And some of you's job is to hold us to this.

And that's our finish line.

So it's an incredible timing that we're talking about this evening.

Rob Bell:
Brilliant.

And I knew you would have those things Tommy.

Again, this is another YouTube Jono's sketches.

Tom Pellereau:
I didn't five minutes ago, but luckily they've come to me.

Rob Bell:
No, but you're a quick thinker like that.

That's what we like.

We like keeping everyone on their toes.

I think that just goes to show you, and I hope for our listeners as well, we are talking about running races a lot here, but this kind of finishing line concept, it needs to have some kind of meaning.

It needs to matter to you.

But having that deadline, whatever that might be, or a physical end to it, can get you off the couch and get you going.

Whenever I do writing, it's typically because I've got some public speaking to do.

And it's normally, it's months in advance I get booked for it.

And then it's always two days before, I'm absolutely panicking trying to get this together.

Because that motivation of standing up there and not having something good to say in front of a number of people is a horrible feeling.

And when you've only got two days, you're like, right, yep.

I've got the motivation now.

I've got the fear.

Let's do it.

Let's write.

Brendan Leonard:
How do we get this sort of thinking into the goal of cleaning our garage?

Like that's, that's, you know.

Jono Hey:
The jobs that never get done.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah, that's my white whale.

Let's get in the garage cleaned.

Tom Pellereau:
So you've almost got to book something that's going to happen if you don't.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah.

Tom Pellereau:
Like book the truck to arrive to take it away or book a car to be delivered.

And there has to be space.

Brendan Leonard:
Right.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

Tom Pellereau:
Or something.

And Rob, I can't help thinking also along these lines, I wonder if baby's arriving, you know, that nine month, nine month period, which Rob, I think you're getting quite close towards the end of.

How's that feeling for you at the moment?

Rob Bell:
Yeah, there's stuff to be done.

Jono Hey:
It's probably going to happen.

Rob Bell:
Both personally and within the house.

There is stuff that I feel like.

Brendan Leonard:
You have to become a better person.

Jono Hey:
You've got two months.

Rob Bell:
Right, you know.

Right.

Tom Pellereau:
And imagine if baby's just arrived within like a couple of weeks.

I think it will potentially be a very different place if you didn't have that nine month finish line and deadline.

Brendan Leonard:
They'd also be very small.

Yeah.

Jono Hey:
Brendan, when I was reading Ultra Something with a lot of your stuff like the, well, I hate running and you can too.

It's basically like this massive puzzle.

It's almost like a Sherlock episode or something.

I keep doing this thing that on all accounts, I don't seem to be enjoying and don't seem to enjoy and yet I keep doing it.

Why is that?

And I was I was reading the book.

I was like this is all the ways Brendan's figuring out why we do all this stuff that I don't seem to enjoy.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah, I mean, I think a couple of threads that are in there without giving the ending of the book away is like, one is storytelling and the stories we tell ourselves.

And then two is like this idea of meaning.

We just create meaning for ourselves, right?

It doesn't matter, you know, and like one of the parallels in there is an American football team that just has not, they lost four Super Bowls, I think in a row actually, when I was a kid, and they continue to not have ever won a championship, but their fans are incredibly rabid.

And this is true, you know, it's true everywhere for every sport, you know, there's a there's a team like that.

And he's like, why do we attach ourselves to this thing we have absolutely no control over and then let it dictate our emotions every Sunday from August through, I guess, January nowadays.

And to me, it's just like we're just looking for things to give our lives meaning and to like wrap a narrative around.

And some of us like go run around in circles for a hundred miles or whatever.

And some people keep going back to Buffalo, New York and watching the football team and spending money on it in time.

And like, I don't honestly think that either one is more meaningful or meaningless than the next one.

But, and those are just touching the surface, you know, there's just, I love the thing I love most about human beings is just how much, how you can just find somebody who's extremely passionate about anything, you know, and I love those people, you know, when you do find them, whether it's like model trains or football or baseball or running or whatever it is.

And, you know, we're all just, none of this stuff is essential to our survival.

It's just interesting in a way.

So yeah, everything's hard though, right?

Like, you know, we talk about signing up for a race and then, or whatever, doing something hard and like hating it and then forgetting about it and signing up again like three months later.

And it's, I always think about childbirth, you know, like watching, having watched, having watched my wife give birth, you know, and like, you know, my grandmother had, both my grandmother's had seven kids, you know, and like, you know, they had obviously different choices at those times.

But yeah, you know, they weren't, at some point they weren't like, nope, no more.

You know, they were like, yeah, I could do another one.

Sure.

You know, Steve, yeah, let's do Steve, you know.

And they, you know, and you just forget about it.

And you're like, it was awful.

Oh my God, delivering that baby was awful.

And then, yeah, okay, we could have another one.

Let's go again.

Yeah, like to keep signing up for that.

Like these Ultramarathon races are nothing.

Jono Hey:
I mean, it's one of the most fun sort of signing meaning thing that you did was the food marathon.

Can you tell you didn't talk about it very much in the book, but it just sounded so good.

I wanted to go.

I just thought it needed to be an event.

It's amazing.

Brendan Leonard:
It was like 2012.

I was in New York with a friend and we started looking at the Zagat's restaurant guide and we kind of came up with a list of I think it was seven iconic New York foods.

So bagel, caneshe, street pretzel, hot dog, donut, cheesecake, pizza.

Jono Hey:
Is that seven?

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah.

I think it was an egg cream drink.

Maybe it was eight.

But so we just in this Zagat guide was like, here's the best one in every, here's where you should go to find the best one.

So we just put them together on a map and then just ran.

It ended up being like 20 or 21 miles and it was July and it was really hot and humid and a lot of them were clustered very closely together.

Everybody got one mulligan where they didn't have to eat.

Which is good, except I'm vegetarian, so I wasn't going to eat a hot dog.

It was ridiculous.

But the thing I've realized with all these races we do or whatever, or the things we decide are important in the outdoors, like let's climb to the top of a mountain, it's just somebody's idea.

Then somebody was like, yeah, it was fun.

You guys, we should all do it.

Then whatever, a few years later, you have the London Marathon and there's just tens of thousands of people doing it.

You're like, yeah, that was great.

They're telling people, it's like, that's meaningless too.

It's just this random distance we decided to run that it's hard, and it's 26.2 miles.

Why not 27?

Well, because.

I have a friend who just started an Ultra Marathon where I'm from, and it's 20-mile loops.

So I've done the one that's three loops, there's another one that's five loops, and he's just like, this is my idea, put this, here's the map, we'll be here, we'll be making sandwiches all night.

And they're just, we're like, people are suffering.

They're out there for like 36 hours, some of them.

And I asked him one time, I was like, you ever just stand out here like three o'clock in the morning, thinking about how there's just like all these people running around circles in the woods?

Because of you?

Yeah, because you had this idea.

You're like, hey guys, this will be fun.

And they're out there just on a vision quest.

And you're just like, cool, this is gonna be meaningful.

But that's what we do, I guess.

I love it, but it's ridiculous.

Let's be honest, you know.

Rob Bell:
It is, I tried to do that once.

I tried to start a race.

I called it The Grand Race.

And I wanted a bunch of our friends, so these two guys and probably about 12 other people.

I put it all out there.

Right, you're gonna get in teams of three or four.

We're gonna start at this place and it's Swindon.

What's Swindon?

It's about maybe 70 miles west of London.

And you're gonna start at this pub where there's a clock behind the bar.

And you have to start with a whiskey and get a photo of your start time.

And then we'll set off in 15 minute intervals.

And there's two checkpoints between the start point and the final point, which was in Henley, nearer London.

And there's a big clock tower.

So you can get a photo there.

So we can see your start and finish times there.

And there are two checkpoints.

And you can take any route you want to get to these two checkpoints, no phones allowed.

So no digital navigation guides.

So maps of conferences.

And you can take any route you want to get there.

And it's through the night.

So we're starting at 11 p.m.

And it's in the winter.

It's cold.

And I was so excited about this.

I put it out.

And nobody came back.

I was like, are you surprised?

Are you really mad?

Like, why are you doing it at night?

Why are you doing it?

And in total, it's about 60 kilometers.

In the end, because I wanted people to take all different routes and have all these stories.

I got chased by a cow or I got, I don't know, someone told me to get off their land.

I don't know whatever it might be.

But as it was, the four of us just went and did it as one group.

And it was brilliant, we weren't racing anybody.

But I absolutely loved it.

But others just didn't get it.

I've only got it.

Brendan Leonard:
Robbie, you got to keep doing it every year.

And then people will start picking up on it.

It may take you like eight or 10 years.

Rob Bell:
Okay, that's fine.

Persistence, persistence is key.

Do you know, we talked quite a bit about food along this, right?

There's the food marathon.

I have noticed, Brendan, pizza is a relatively highly recurring theme in your latest book, which I'm all about.

One of the greatest reasons I do keep doing the running is you can basically eat what you want, right?

And that's fantastic.

Brendan Leonard:
I love that.

It burns the most calories per hour or per minute of outdoor, any outdoor exercise that I can do.

So I'm into it.

Yeah.

Same reasons.

Yeah.

Rob Bell:
I've not ever done, I've done one ultra, but it was a 50K.

So which is like the kind of smallest ultra you can do.

Why even bother mentioning it?

Brendan Leonard:
She is.

Yeah.

Rob Bell:
But what you don't get to do on that is like, is eat all the different meals throughout, because it's just not long enough, right?

But on the kind of things that you're doing, when you're doing, you know, 10, 20, 30 odd hours, you need to put those calories in.

And there's some great stories about ultra runners and kind of how they get their calories on the go.

Because I get asked this quite a bit, you know, how do you put your energy back in?

And you've got this really healthy diet and all the old energy bars.

No, it's when you're out there, it's burgers and it's pizza and it's whatever, it's calorific and got the fat in there.

People are sometimes surprised about that.

Jono Hey:
Brendan's might be different.

Rob Bell:
Well, I've read the book, I know he eats a lot of pizza.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

Brendan Leonard:
And I mean, I think everybody's kind of like that.

There's only, and except the really fast people might be a little more refined.

They have more discretion maybe, but even then you have this, you just can't eat that many hundred calorie gels and have your gut react.

I mean, like for 10 hours of doing that, it's just, you know, it doesn't work that well.

So pretty amazing.

You get later into these races and they're like overnight, you'll run into an aid station and they'll be like, what do you need?

You want a quesadilla?

Do you want some bacon?

Do you want to, you know, like sometimes they have beer, you know, like we got a campfire over here and it's all this like, you know, soup, all this stuff.

And you're like, oh, okay.

It's like literally someone is taking your order.

So it's pretty great.

And oftentimes you get surprised and like, you know, one of the best surprises I've ever had was like, like mile 80, I'm just feeling terrible.

And my friend who was pacing me was like, hey, they got pizza.

And I'm like, how are they making pizza out here?

Like, yeah, I'll take it.

I'm like, oh, morale, just the spikes, you know?

And you're like, okay, I think I can finish.

Rob Bell:
Tommy, I'm seeing you, I'm seeing your eyes light up about ultra running now because you're hearing about all this food you can shove down your face along the way.

Jono Hey:
Time to sign up, get them quick.

Brendan Leonard:
I mean, bicycle, like cycling too is like the same.

I've done a long bike tour for like almost two months and you just can't keep up.

You know, there's like your body's a temple.

And I'm like, no, your body's a furnace, man.

At that point, you're just like, you have to eat whatever you can.

Rob Bell:
Throw it in.

It's within seconds because of that furnace.

It's gone.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah.

And you're just, you're like trying not to waste away.

Rob Bell:
I feel we should probably kind of start to round off this chat, but I wanted to ask you of the finishing lines that you have crossed, is there a favorite of an actual finish line, a physical finish line of a race?

Is there one that you think, oh, that was special because of its surroundings, because of what the race was, because of the people there?

Brendan Leonard:
All of them are a relief because I can just stop.

I love that.

So we made the first 100-mile race I did and I've done three.

But the first one I did, we made a movie.

It was about my friend who I was running with and it's called How to Run 100 Miles.

And it's not a how-to movie, it's like his life story about persistence.

And it was our first 100-mile race together and it was the biggest film budget I ever worked with and I was directing and producing it and running in it.

And it was a terrible idea.

I should have asked for a bigger budget anyway.

But because we did that, I got to see all this footage.

I reviewed all the footage to figure out what we're going to put in.

And the race director is the guy who's at that time, he's probably in his 50s or maybe early 60s and had done a bunch of, you know, he created the race and did all these, I think he created the race.

He had done a bunch of these, you know, events himself.

And we came across the finish line and we were like sixth from last.

And my buddy had been limping for the last like 20 miles.

There was something that went wrong with his ankle and to the point where we had to go all the downhill at the end and he had to walk down it backwards because his ankle hurt so much.

But we made it in and he was just like falling apart.

And the video that I scanned back and forth and back and forth, trying to figure out where to cut and stuff, you could see the race director who's waiting at the finish line to give everybody a hug when they finish.

He does that and then he's like waiting to hand us our finisher belt buckles.

And there's just this second where you can see the corners of his mouth turned down and he's about to cry.

And then we cut to a different thing.

I don't think he did that with everybody who came across the finish line, but I always have that image of Fred, the race director, who was so visibly affected by my friend crossing and digging so deep to get across.

So I guess that's the one I think of the most.

And it speaks to the people who put on these events and how emotionally involved they are too.

They're there to watch you come across the finish line and they stay up all night and all these things but they really do care and there's just this camaraderie I guess.

It's like, it feels too light of a word I guess, but that's kind of what it is.

And they're there to help you push yourself and figure out what you're doing.

But I've watched that.

It's still on YouTube and I'll just like rewind and be like, there it is, boom, pause it and like, that's great and then move it on.

But yeah, it's awesome.

Rob Bell:
Jono, tell me, have you got favorite finish lines of experiences or races that you can think of?

Brendan Leonard:
Or your garage being finally...

Jono Hey:
I think it was probably the Isles of Silly Swim Run we did, partly because it was so damn hard.

And I think you had a quote in the book, Brendan, which was like, you know what I like about mountaineering?

It feels so good when you stop.

And I definitely felt a bit of that.

But it was also like the two race directors coming up and just getting a massive hug with these big arms around you at the end of it.

I just remember, I'd never done a race like that before, where, you know, I've done a race and everybody finishes and pick up your medal from the table and you're just one of 10,000 or something.

I don't know.

And that felt really different to be acknowledged by the race directors in that way.

It was really nice.

Rob Bell:
I'd never been hugged by a big Swedish guy before either.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, I mean, it's pretty cool.

Brendan Leonard:
It's a reason to go back.

Rob Bell:
It was.

It was.

Tell me.

Tom Pellereau:
Well, so my weirdest one is the finish line of Winning the Apprentice, right?

So, yeah.

And Brendan, in the UK, I won this pretty big TV show.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, it's pretty big deal.

Tom Pellereau:
But when you win it, they record two endings.

So I lost and then I won, right?

And then you don't find out until six months later, roughly, when they air it, whether or not you are the winner or the second place.

And so I was recorded winning it, but I'd also five minutes earlier just recorded losing it.

So it wasn't like a really exciting finish line because I'd also just lost.

And then I'd won.

I was like, well, it's sort of hollow victory.

I don't know really what's going to happen.

And then six months later, I met up with him on the day that it was basically going out live.

And he sort of walked in and he was like, yeah, so...

Rob Bell:
When you say he, Tom, Lord Sugar.

Tom Pellereau:
The host who's in the UK, Lord Sugar.

He walked into this room where I was waiting and he said, yeah, so yeah, the winner will be in touch in a couple of months and have a good weekend.

And then he kind of just walked off.

I was like, I've spent nine months of my life preparing for this massive moment.

And you know, you've just said you've won and sort of walked off.

Then it did air and then I, you know, my friends and my family and all that.

And we had an amazing night, the night that we recorded it.

We did.

We've got photos of that.

So that's a very strange three, four part finish line.

Rob Bell:
Yeah.

Tom Pellereau:
But the one with you boys was brilliant.

Rob Bell:
Before we round off, is there anything anyone else wants to bring up that we haven't covered yet or anything we want to ask of Brendan?

Jono Hey:
At one point, I think you compared pain to like a mild drug that kind of allows you to be or forces you to be present.

Brendan Leonard:
There's a passage in there about it's called the term is benign masochism.

And then there's a section.

Yeah, it's about like eating spicy food or like listening to songs that make you sad and stuff like that.

It's a whole concept.

And then there's another bit about it was it's actually people talking about talking to a dominatrix about the focusing power of a whip where people cannot not be present when the whip is there.

I've never done that stuff, but I like I kind of like it just fit perfectly.

I was like, yeah, it's a way of focusing, you know, it's a way of providing clarity.

Jono Hey:
You like couldn't be stressed about your meeting next week or an email you can get back to when you're getting hit by a whip.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah, yeah, or potentially going to be in a few minutes.

And you paid for it, you know, you're paying for it.

So yeah, it's pretty fascinating.

Rob Bell:
I think that's why that cold water is such a good cure for your hangover.

It's like, well, suddenly you got a bigger problem to deal with right now.

Like you might have a really bad headache and not be feeling great.

But if you dunk your head in a really cold water, you're like, oh, Christ, no, this is I'm present with that problem right now.

Everything else has disappeared a bit.

Brendan Leonard:
My wife's a cold water swimmer and I'm like, I make a guest appearance every few months for literally three seconds.

But she's like in there in the middle of winter in Montana, just swimming around the river.

Good for you.

Rob Bell:
I'm happy for you.

Jono Hey:
She sounds so much more hardcore than you, Brendan.

We should get her on the show.

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah.

Well, we got a little two-year-old running around.

I didn't give birth to him.

Nor did I carry him.

Nor did he grow inside my belly.

After that whole experience, I'm not really impressed with men in general, honestly.

Like, what do we do?

War?

Rob Bell:
Listen, Brendan, where do people need to go if they want to follow your work and your adventures into your writings and your illustrations?

I'll leave it there for you.

Filmmaking.

It does go on and on and on.

Where's the best place?

Brendan Leonard:
Yeah, I think if you just Google Semi-Rad, that's probably the...

It's my website, semirad.com, and all my social media handles are Semi-Rad.

It's easier than spelling my name, I guess.

But yeah, everything's there.

Rob Bell:
Ahead there, I would urge listeners if they've enjoyed our chat with Brendan.

And even if not, I highly recommend that you just go to Semi-Rad and sign up for his weekly newsletter.

For me, it is 20 minutes of absolutely pure joy every Friday.

Brendan, I feel like I could sit and talk to you for hours more and bring up so many more stuff.

But sadly, we do need to call it a day.

Otherwise, there's a risk this becomes an ultra pod.

It's so fun.

It's so interesting here in your perspective and all your experiences.

You know, we talked about really, really pushing yourselves hard, but you've got so much insight and entertainment to give people when you talk about it as well.

So, yeah, thank you so much for coming on.

Brendan Leonard:
Well, thanks for having me.

This is a total blast.

Rob Bell:
Please just keep doing what you do because we're massive fans.

We absolutely love it.

Brendan Leonard:
Thank you.

Rob Bell:
And that's it for another episode of Sketchplanations, The Podcast.

Thank you all very much for listening.

I'm off to start looking for my next race by scouring the web for photos of the greatest finish lines in the world.

See you next time.

Go well.

Stay well.

Goodbye.

All music on this podcast is sourced from the very talented, Franc Cinelli.

And you can find loads more tracks at franccinelli.com.