Family Tree Explainer

Rob Bell:
Hello, and welcome to Sketchplanations The Podcast, facts and discussion to help fuel your own interesting conversations.

I'm engineer and broadcaster Rob Bell, and with me is creator of Sketchplanations, Jono Hey, and entrepreneur Tom Pellereau.

In this, the season of goodwill, well, Christmas has been gone already, but it's still that time of year when you'll typically spend more time with members of the family you don't see, at other times of the year.

So listeners, helpfully in this episode, we're tackling the Second Cousin Once Removed.

Do you have one?

If so, who is it?

I mean, I've definitely heard of this term, but without looking at the sketch, I honestly couldn't tell you if I have one or not.

You can see the sketch as the artwork for this episode, which is extremely useful, but you can also head along to sketchplanations.com to see it in much more detail.

So Jono, before actually we get into this topic, can I ask you, was it an awkward family moment that led you to wanting to do this sketch or just general curiosity for what on earth does this term mean?

Who were my second cousins once removed?

Jono Hey:
So it wasn't an awkward family moment, but I have had various discussions, mostly with my aunt, who's sort of the de facto family cataloger, I suppose.

Rob Bell:
OK, that's good.

Jono Hey:
You know, the person who has the knowledge about who's connected to who, and always feeling pretty lost.

Like I called it Second Cousins Once Removed, because I sort of feel like that is the classic term, which encapsulates all this family naming complexity, which generally speaking, I didn't understand, and I expect a lot of people don't understand.

And so there was just a bit of me going, why don't I know what this is?

I mean, it's families, right?

Now, how complicated can it be?

It turns out it can be quite complicated, but it feels like it shouldn't be complicated.

Tom Pellereau:
So you're right.

Jono Hey:
Partly a personal exercise to go, right, let's sort this out.

Rob Bell:
It is the de facto term for some relation somewhere in the family that's a little bit obscure.

Come on then, let's talk about, what is a second cousin once removed?

Do you have any?

Jono Hey:
Yeah, no doubt I do.

But you might not necessarily see that side of the family that much.

In fact, even when you go through, this is what this is, through the great grandparents, you actually go, they actually live completely different lives somewhere else in the country quite often.

Now, it's not always the case, but it is the case of my quite close family up to my grandparents and my parents, siblings and things like that.

And then there's lots more family who I don't really know and I don't really see.

And that's why I don't tend to use these terms that much.

Rob Bell:
Can I say at this point as well?

Because I'm about to flick over to bring up the sketch on my screen as we get into this.

I would highly recommend listeners, if you have the option to do that now, either zoom in on the artwork for this episode or go to the sketch at sketchplanations.com as well and I'll include the link for it down below.

Sorry Jono, carry on.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, it's all right.

So the deal is, let's not go straight to Second Cousins Once Removed like that.

You have to build your way to get there.

And you might know all this and I'm going to try and do my clearest job of explaining it.

But typically people know their aunts and uncles and their cousin generally and their nieces and nephews.

But it sort of stops around there except for grandparents.

And so the first or second thing, a first cousin is somebody where you share the same grandparents and if you end up with a second cousin, you share the same great grandparents.

Now, what in practice that means, which makes a ton of sense, is that who shares the same grandparents?

OK, so if you've got your parents and you've got their siblings, they're your aunts and uncles, yes, they have the same parents.

OK, if you go, your cousin is your aunts and uncle's children.

Rob Bell:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
And you share the same grandparents as your aunt and uncle's children.

Rob Bell:
Yep.

Jono Hey:
All right.

And so that's your first, because you've gone up to grandparents.

Second is quite a stretch, which is where you're sharing the same great grandparents.

Rob Bell:
Yep.

Got it.

And you can see this on the sketch.

I'm looking at the family tree here in the sketch and I can follow that quite nicely.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

So you actually have to go up really quite a long way, not just your parents and your parents' parents, but your grandparents' parents in order to find the connection between you and your second cousin.

Rob Bell:
So three generations back.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

I can see Tom's mind is exploding already.

Rob Bell:
Are you looking at the sketch, Tommy, as we're doing this?

Tom Pellereau:
Of course.

And what's great is you've given me about 10 minutes so far on this podcast to really try and understand this in silence in the background.

Rob Bell:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
So in the sketch, I've basically tried to put you right in the middle.

And the most obvious connection is your parents and your parents' siblings, which is your aunt and uncle and their children, which is what you normally know as your cousin.

So your first cousins are those, your aunt and uncle's children.

But if your aunt and uncle's children, as in your cousins, had children.

Yes.

And you have children, your children and your cousin's children are second cousins.

Rob Bell:
Yes.

Jono Hey:
Because they have to go through you, your parents, your parents, and then your parents' parents before you can go all the way back down the tree to your aunt and uncle, to your cousin, and down to them.

Rob Bell:
Yes.

Jono Hey:
So that's the connection between first and second.

So that does happen, right?

Definitely, like if you have your cousin's children and your children in the same room, then you've got second cousins in the same room.

And that's because you have to go all the way to their great-grandparents before you found a connection.

Rob Bell:
It's easier for me to follow this through my daughter.

Yeah.

Because I don't...

Jono Hey:
Carry on.

Rob Bell:
I'm going to keep thinking.

Jono Hey:
OK.

So the first and second is generations to your shared ancestor.

And the once removed is a slightly funny one, I'll be honest.

It's basically people being a different generation from you.

And it does get quite confusing, I think, with your family and ages, because people have kids at different times.

It's quite easy to have somebody who is kind of a different generation from you, but is actually a quite similar age to you, as opposed to nieces and nephews who are typically younger than you in most cases.

But the once removed is whether you're in the same generation or above or below.

So I've put in the diagram, I think the easiest one to do is again, if you go to your cousins, so your aunt and uncle's children.

If they have children, they are now a different generation from you.

And so that once removed is the generation difference.

So you can actually be either way.

So they are the first cousins once removed from me, even though they're below a generation.

But I'm also once removed from them because I'm above a generation.

Rob Bell:
So first cousin once removed is quite easy for me.

Yeah, that's good.

I can follow that.

The second cousin once removed, I am having to think quite a bit harder.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, it's funny, when I did this sketch, I was like, okay, what is the minimum set of relations you need to put in place in order to illustrate this?

And I actually came up with something I saw much later.

And other people may you may have seen this as well.

There's a diagram called the Family Tree Explainer.

And it turns out to have exactly the same layout as this.

And I hadn't seen it before I did this.

Rob Bell:
Oh, nice.

Jono Hey:
But I think it's basically because it is the minimum set that you can do in order to illustrate these relationships.

Rob Bell:
Gotcha.

Jono Hey:
So in order to get the second cousin once removed from yourself, you have to go all the way up to your great grandparents, so your grandparents' parents, and go down to essentially what was your grandparents' siblings.

And they had children, and they had children.

And they've now reached the same generation as you.

But then if your parents' cousins' children had children, they are now a different generation from you, and they're once removed, and they were also your second cousins.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is easy, and I have to work quite hard.

Which is why I had to make a diagram.

I'm extremely conscious when I'm saying this, that it sounds really complicated.

But it is possible to get your head round.

And I think that the way to do it is the first, second, third is your generations between a shared ancestor, and the once or twice removed is your generation separating the cousins.

Rob Bell:
Yeah.

If I were going to go through this, I'd basically use your sketch, Jono, and I'd put names next to it.

And then I'm like, okay, I can see what I'm going.

The thing with me is I don't know who my parents' cousins are.

I just don't know who they are.

Jono Hey:
Isn't that interesting?

Rob Bell:
Because it's not that far away, is it?

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

Jono Hey:
You know, like, I've spent a lot of time with my cousins.

Tom Pellereau:
Yes.

Jono Hey:
And quite possibly, my parents spent a lot of time with their cousins growing up.

And yet, you know, they develop their own sides of the family.

Rob Bell:
And might move away, as you say.

And I think maybe there's a thing here about generationally and technology getting involved.

We always come around to this.

Tom Pellereau:
But, you know, families can keep in touch more easily.

Rob Bell:
It's exactly that to me.

It's exactly that.

So if you do move to the other side of the world, because in our family, and this maybe this is my second cousin once removed, but the most exotic member of our family moved to Australia way back.

And it's maybe it's my dad's second cousin once removed, something like that.

I couldn't tell you.

But my dad talks about them all the time as though it's like, oh, I spoke to them today.

Tom Pellereau:
Jono, this is brilliant.

And I think I'm getting close to getting it.

And on that note of social media, I've just put a screenshot on my Denim Descendants, which is my mum's family WhatsApp group, so that we can all know who we are, because my mum is one of four.

So I've got eight cousins on that side.

I know them pretty well.

And then quite a few of them have now had kids.

I think in mum's sort of family, there's probably now 12.

Jono Hey:
So you are once removed from those kids, for example.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

So I have my first cousins once removed.

On that side, there's about 12 of them.

And I now know that my son, Jack, and my cousin, Dan, his son, Zack, they're second cousins.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

Rob Bell:
That's really cool.

Tom Pellereau:
Zack and Jack, they get on very well.

And Zack, who's actually going to come and work for me on a work experience next summer.

So he is my first cousin once removed.

Genius.

Jono Hey:
Absolutely.

Tom Pellereau:
What is also confusing is the once removed thing can either go up or down.

And that's a classic English, right?

I bet if this was in French, it would be first cousin once up or once down.

Rob Bell:
Do you know what I mean?

Tom Pellereau:
So my dad's cousin Clive, who lives in South Africa, he is my first cousin once removed in the other way.

So Clive and Zack are both my first cousins once removed, but one up and one down.

Jono Hey:
He's nailed it.

Tom Pellereau:
I think basically these podcasts and me kind of learning something new.

Can Tommy learn something new in half an hour?

Rob Bell:
I appreciate for our listeners, hearing our family members names going back in a cross generations probably isn't the most compelling bit of content.

I'm sorry, listeners, I can't show you this as well, but it's great to watch the cogs in Tommy's head turning as he's working his way through this.

Jono Hey:
I posted this, again, not too long ago, and a couple of things came of it, which were really interesting.

One was somebody sent me a video of the Chinese family tree explained.

Rob Bell:
How's that, is it different?

Jono Hey:
Well, yeah, so there's like a series of videos, which you mean I've been seeing millions of times, so loads of people know about it, but they were really good, which is essentially what you were saying, Tom, in some ways.

So I think like an aunt and an uncle is kind of an interesting one where we've taken this relation, and we've given it a specific name.

But in general, for most things, you've got those eight cousins and their children, and we just say their cousins once removed from you.

But in the Chinese family tree, there's basically a name for every single one of these relations, and whether they're male or female connections, for example.

So whether it's up or down or whatever, there is a word for every one of these.

Tom Pellereau:
Which is sort of more to learn, but actually makes it less confusing.

Jono Hey:
It's much more precise.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, because the first cousin once removed is very confusing, because you're like, is it removed because it's not my cousin?

Jono Hey:
It's wholly ambiguous, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah, which is a bit crazy.

But it's also a bit crazy when you start listing out individual terms for all of these connections, because it gets massive.

The other one that came from posting it, if somebody mentioned about Lord of the Rings, Rob, you probably not spend a lot of time with this, but Frodo and Bilbo are related.

Tom Pellereau:
Yes.

Jono Hey:
So Frodo is the main protagonist in Lord of the Rings, Bilbo in The Hobbit.

And I think there's a little introduction that they say between the two of them, and I've got it here.

He said, because he said that this was always confusing for him.

He said, Mr.

Drogo married poor Miss Primula Brandebach.

She was our Mr.

Bilbo's first cousin on the mother side, her mother being the youngest of the old Tuke's daughters.

Mr.

Drogo was his second cousin.

So Mr.

Frodo is his first and second cousin once removed either way, as the saying is, if you follow me.

And of course, if you've read that passage at the time, you've probably no idea.

But what was always really cool when he pointed that out to me was I basically took exactly this diagram and I put Frodo where you is.

Rob Bell:
In the middle there, yeah.

Jono Hey:
And then I just followed the sentence back.

And so you've got Drogo, his dad and Primula Brandebach, who he married and then it's Primula's mother is in the grandparents' position.

The old two is in the great grandparents.

Primula's mother's sibling is on the right as a grandaunt and uncle.

Bilbo becomes his parents' cousin on the right and they are first cousins once removed.

It actually works.

This incredibly complicated linguistic puzzle that has been set out.

You can map through it.

Tom Pellereau:
And the amazing thing is that Tolkien just made all that up in his mind and nailed it.

Jono Hey:
He probably just knew it all, yeah.

Tom Pellereau:
Such intelligence that guy.

Rob Bell:
Or maybe he had to do this sketch and figure that out.

Jono Hey:
It's possible.

Rob Bell:
So we're talking about in fiction there, but sometimes you find, is it in like political families as well?

You know, you've got almost dynastic families.

Is that word dynastic?

Jono Hey:
Dynastic.

Rob Bell:
Dynastic, thank you.

You have this, I'm thinking of Kennedys.

I don't know what the relations were, but it does feel like they'd be cousins and maybe some once removed in theirs as well about the famous Kennedys.

Jono Hey:
Yeah, we often go down to Plymouth in the southwest of the UK, and that's quite well known as a place where the Mayflower left from, which is one of the first boats of colonists to go to what became the USA.

And there was a lovely story on it of this chap who fell overboard on the journey and then was rescued, nearly died.

And then eventually, he's an ancestor of two to three presidents of the USA in modern day times, you know, in the 20th century, and you know, just from being rescued off the Mayflower, his whole complicated family tree has gone on for 300 years to produce this.

So I'm sure there are third cousins, fourth removed all the way through that.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, the Royal Family has a lot of this sort of stuff, doesn't it?

Rob Bell:
You're right as well there, Tommy, yes.

Tom Pellereau:
And back to the Battenbergs and all that.

Jono Hey:
It's kind of niche, but it'd be quite interesting to take all these sort of famous families or even TV families and do a little diagram like this and explain whose first cousins once removed and second cousins and that.

I think that would be popular.

Rob Bell:
It's very good and this is all very factual.

I'm wondering how useful it is, but does it even need to be useful?

It's just a thing.

It's how your family tree works, right?

Tom Pellereau:
It's a good chatting point with the family.

Rob Bell:
This is why we're doing it at this time of year, Tommy, exactly.

Tom Pellereau:
Exactly.

So you can maybe even get it right this year.

Rob Bell:
Get your phones out, get this sketch out, go through it with family members.

What a lovely thing to do whilst you're exchanging gifts.

Tom Pellereau:
Take a screenshot of it, send it out, and understand who your second cousins are.

It is unlikely that you see your second cousins very often, there isn't it?

Rob Bell:
Well, I don't know.

Tom Pellereau:
Your kids will see their second cousins quite regularly.

Like your daughter probably sees her second cousin quite regularly.

Well, I wonder when was the last time you saw your second cousin?

Rob Bell:
Yeah, as I don't know who they are.

Jono Hey:
Sit down and do the exercise, Rob.

Come on.

Rob Bell:
But you know, it depends on how close you are as a family.

I think about this as well.

So my wife's family is very, very close.

She's spent loads of time with all of her cousins growing up.

And thus now, as we're getting into the next generation, they are kids and their kids all spend time together as well.

That doesn't happen on my side of the family.

So I think, I mean, this is an obvious thing to say, but the more time you spent with your family, probably the more likely you are to know who your second cousins and once twice removed are.

Jono Hey:
My aunt was quite well in touch with, I guess, her cousins.

And we've done over the last five or ten years, a few meetups with sort of extended family, in a way just to sort of meet extended family.

I think it's interesting how quickly it gets sort of somewhat distant and confusing.

And when we were at these things, I thought it was quite interesting to see if we can actually write this down and do the family trees.

Because you've actually got people there who know these connections, because you know, I don't know them.

And I do think if you're still with your family over the holiday, it is a really nice thing to do to take an elderly family member, or maybe that is you, and spend half an hour drawing out all the family tree that you know.

And it might not be even for you because you know it, but it might be for your kids or your grandkids, that they'll actually have these connections revealed.

And it's really interesting.

I found when looking at our own families, how very quickly it gets fuzzy.

You try and go back and then you're like, Oh yeah, and they had another brother and they moved to Australia.

I don't really know what happened to them.

Nobody's in touch with them anymore.

Or they moved, but he died.

But then they remarried and then they've got some cousins.

And I think they live locally, but we never see them, you know.

And you try and draw it out and it's really complicated.

And that's your family, I don't know.

It's interesting.

Rob Bell:
It is really interesting.

My dad got well into it and he traced his side of our family tree right back.

I think he got into the late 1600s with it.

He went deep.

He did loads of research online.

And then he started doing like day trips up into East Anglia, where his side of the family originated from, that he knew of, and would start going to little parishes and going through wedding certificate archives or like death certificate archives.

And was tracing all this stuff back.

And then a couple of Christmases ago, he said to my young niece, she was quite young at the time, Oh, do you want to see the family tree?

And she got really excited.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, let's go and see the family tree.

And I don't know what she was expecting.

But when my dad got out, loads of A4 pieces of paper that he'd sell and taped together and unfolded it, I think she was a little disappointed.

Tom Pellereau:
She was thinking of an actual tree.

Rob Bell:
I think she had an actual tree in her mind that sounded really fun.

Oh, the family tree.

We traced back how it...

Tom Pellereau:
I never realized we had such...

Rob Bell:
Oh, bless her.

And she feigned interest for a few minutes.

Tom Pellereau:
She did feign it.

Rob Bell:
She feigned interest, yeah.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, because often kids don't even bother.

Rob Bell:
No, she's very sensitive in that way.

So to my dad, her grandfather, she's, oh, OK, yes, yes.

And then would look at me the eyes like, what is this?

Tom Pellereau:
Can you get me out of here, please?

Jono Hey:
A family tree is a sort of imperfect metaphor if you try and actually draw it.

This drawing kind of looks like a branching pattern, a bit like a tree.

But what you notice on there, if you look at it a bit closely, is all I've done is you, and I haven't done any of my siblings or their children on here.

Or who my siblings are married to and their parents or children, who would become your in-laws.

Or where this person died and then remarried, and so you've got two family connections and a whole new set of cousins in-law, let's say, or not in-law, but a whole new set of cousins, but with a different parent.

If you actually think about it like a tree, and you try and think, I'm just going to draw a tree, it just doesn't work.

It's like got so many layers and dimensions to it.

Tom Pellereau:
Because my name is unique, Pellereau, there are only like 14 of us in the UK, and it is just my direct family.

Rob Bell:
There are only 14 Pellereaus in the UK.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, and actually it sort of goes up and then it goes down, because when I got married, Sarah became a Pellereau, but then my sisters have since got married, and so they are no longer Pellereaus.

For press reasons, I have a Google alert for my surname, and every so often, like a Pellereau in France or America will kind of come up.

So this week, Hadrian Pellereau posted something on YouTube in France or so.

It looks like a 15-year-old.

So I'm like, somehow, Hadrian, I am related to you.

I have literally no idea how many generations ago that might have been, because also quite rare, there aren't many in France or America.

You have our shared name.

I know my granddad did do quite a lot of research into this, but it's like bonkersly generations ago, which can also happen.

So it's almost like you're Lord of the Rings tale.

Rob Bell:
Hang on.

So because Pellereau is a unique name, not unique, but it's much more of a rare name than Bell, for instance, you are quite confident that you're all related.

Does that mean that every Bell is related?

I mean, if you want to take it right back, we're all related somehow, aren't we?

Tom Pellereau:
Well, I suspect we were all.

I think surnames in the main came from some kind of professional, whatever that person did.

So whatever Pellereau kind of meant, which is something to do with some kind of unique type of boat in a certain region of France, as I understand it, that was very rare.

And so this one little group got called it, whereas Bell was probably something to do with Bellmakers or metalworkers or that sort of thing, which is why Smith in the UK is so common, because every village had a blacksmith.

And so that person would just get called Smith because he was the blacksmith of the thing.

So it's unlikely that all the Smiths are related, so to speak, and possibly the same with the Bells and the Hays.

But then you do get these very unusual names.

Rob Bell:
But if you go back so far as the Big Bang, not many humans around, but we know what you're saying.

And move forward from there.

Jono Hey:
Yes, single celled.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah, we move forward in maybe 13 and three quarter billion years.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

Are we all related?

Tom Pellereau:
Oh, this is a big, this is a very big question.

It's very possible.

Rob Bell:
I don't know.

Tom Pellereau:
Improbable, but it's possible.

Jono Hey:
No comment.

Rob Bell:
That's safe, Jono.

Very safe.

I don't know if I feel stupid or not asking that question.

I'm trying to ascertain that at the moment.

Tom Pellereau:
It's nice that you feel free that you can ask that question.

Rob Bell:
It's nice that I can feel free to say that whether I'm feeling stupid or not.

Tom Pellereau:
Yeah.

Rob Bell:
I mean, I'm in good company.

Jono Hey:
I've worked with somebody who had quite a well-known, well-respected name in the UK.

It's the same one as some various place names and things like that.

And there probably is a connection between him and many of these people.

And he used to talk about these cycles of boom and bust in his family.

And there was this person who made great fortune and was really well-respected.

And then it all went to William.

And William is a gambler and he lost it all.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, the gambling.

It's always the gambling.

Jono Hey:
And then the family has been poor again for three generations.

And then this guy did really funny stories.

Rob Bell:
The other thing that pops up in my mind, and I know this through football, is the Icelandic system of naming, but in surnames.

So generally, a person's last name indicates the first name of their father, sometimes their mother as well, followed by either son, meaning son, or dotir, meaning daughter.

So if you had someone called, I don't know, Robbie Gunnarsson, then their son.

Tom Pellereau:
Are you reading this?

Rob Bell:
Yes.

Tom Pellereau:
So you know this from Google?

Rob Bell:
Well, no, but I did know this, but I'm just, I'm just refreshing my memory on it.

If Robbie Gunnarsson had a son called Peter, that would be Peter Robbie's son.

Tom Pellereau:
Oh, yeah.

Rob Bell:
But if they had a daughter, it would be, I don't know, Angela Robbie's dotir.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

Rob Bell:
So the surname would actually change depending on whether you had a son or a daughter.

And you see, if you look at Icelandic footballers, both in the men's team and the female team, you see this, that most of the names are son at the end or dotir at the end.

Jono Hey:
Angela's popular Icelandic first name.

Rob Bell:
Oh, Angela's so popular in Iceland at the moment.

Jono Hey:
That's really cool.

I like that.

So there it's changing all the time, isn't it?

Rob Bell:
Exactly.

So you lose that, like Tommy was saying, you lose the, oh well, we're all related because we've got the same name.

It's all just changing.

It's all just fluid.

But it's quite cool, isn't it?

Jono Hey:
One word that I've heard only in recent years was niblings.

You ever heard of niblings?

Rob Bell:
No, what's a nibbling?

Other than what you do with a mince pie.

Jono Hey:
Yeah.

So it's a single B, so N-I-B-L-I-N-G-S.

It's a gender neutral term for nieces and nephews.

So you don't have to say that this is your niece or this is your nephew.

We're having the niblings over.

Tom Pellereau:
Ah, that's cool.

Jono Hey:
Is you're having nieces and nephews over or the niblings are going to get together, and it doesn't matter whether they're nieces or nephews.

Rob Bell:
Is that a legit term, niblings?

Jono Hey:
It is a legit term.

I only heard it, you know, relatively recently, but I think it's a really nice one.

Rob Bell:
It's made up.

Tom Pellereau:
Can't be legit.

Jono Hey:
Well, all words are made up.

Well, I'll give you one that's less common, like with the Chinese family tree.

We have an aunt and an uncle, which is a male and female parent's sibling.

And apparently, you can have piblings, which is parents' siblings.

Rob Bell:
Yeah, piblings.

Jono Hey:
Piblings, but that one is less common, but it does exist, apparently.

So you have niblings in your piblings.

Quite nice.

I like it.

Rob Bell:
That's good.

Jono Hey:
Try it over the holidays.

Tom Pellereau:
Is gibblings the next one up?

Jono Hey:
Good parents.

Yeah, why not?

Rob Bell:
What are our conclusions for this chat, guys?

Mine is I need to figure out who my second cousins once removed are.

Tom Pellereau:
Yes.

Rob Bell:
That's my homework.

And there's never been a better time to do that.

Tom Pellereau:
Or just straight second cousins.

Rob Bell:
Or just straight second cousins.

Yeah.

Tom Pellereau:
I'm going to start calling my relatives by their proper names.

I think that's cool.

Uncle, cousin, cousin one, cousin once removed.

That's excellent.

Excellent knowledge.

Jono Hey:
You can live your entire life without knowing what these mean.

And it's absolutely fine.

But it's kind of interesting to be able to talk the lingo for it.

Rob Bell:
It's a fun exercise.

Well done, guys.

Very, very good, Jono.

Well done for holding that together.

That was great.

I appreciate listeners.

That is a little tricky one to follow.

So I urge you again to bring the sketch up and make sure that you can follow that as we go through and lay your own family names over the top of it.

We just thought it would be quite a fun one to do at this time of year.

So we will round off by wishing you all a fantastic remainder of the festive season.

And we look forward to many more conversations about who knows what else in the New Year.

Go well everybody and stay well.

Tom Pellereau:
Thank you.

Jono Hey:
Cheers.

Rob Bell:
All music on this podcast series is provided by the very talented Franc Cinelli.

And you can find many more tracks at franccinelli.com.