Don't Fill The Silence

Tom Pellereau:

This is one of the most powerful lessons, I think, that anyone can learn.

 

Jono Hey:

It's this curious thing, which is slightly uncomfortable to do, and not wholly natural in some way.

 

Tom Pellereau:

What about an emergency biscuit?

 

And they were all sort of silent, and I immediately went, oh, lead balloon, let's move on to the next one.

 

We did Bixnicks, one of the worst that these have ever been involved in.

 

Rob Bell:

Did you win that one?

 

Jono Hey:

And it's a real lesson to me, that you think that you know what somebody might be going to say or what's going on in their head, but actually you don't.

 

Tom Pellereau:

You see it the whole time in the boardroom, people basically talking themselves into being fired.

 

Rob Bell:

On an audio only media, I'd say silences aren't the best.

 

You both have made me feel quite awkward.

 

Silence is golden.

 

Silence in court.

 

Silence can be awkward.

 

Or as it turns out, when used effectively, silence can be incredibly powerful.

 

Hello and welcome to Sketchplanations The Podcast, where each episode we select one sketch from the back catalogue of work at sketchplanations.com and explore how it applies to our lives and in our worlds.

 

There's also loads for you to pour through up on Instagram and Twitter if that's your preferred destination.

 

Just search for Sketchplanations.

 

Now, they say that a picture paints a thousand words.

 

Well, on average when speaking, according to wordcounter.net, we'll apparently get through anywhere between 100 and 200 words per minute when giving a speech.

 

Now, this podcast episode is by no means a speech, but it does contain people talking fairly consistently for roughly half an hour.

 

So if we stab for an average slap bang in the middle of that, say 150 words per minute, times that by 30 minutes, then by listening to this podcast, you're going to be hearing around four and a half thousand words.

 

And that, my friends, is where Sketchplanations provides such great value.

 

We've given you four and a half times what other pictures and illustrations can muster.

 

I'm Rob Bell, an engineer and broadcaster, and joining me on this mission to deliver market-defying value is Jono Hey, the masterful creator of Sketchplanations, and Tom Pellereau, aka Inventor Tom, aka The Apprentice winner in 2011, aka Tentigenous Tommy.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Jono, what does Tentigenous mean?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, very good question.

 

Rob, what does Tentigenous mean?

 

Rob Bell:

It's an adjective that's used to describe something that relates to feelings of lust.

 

Jono Hey:

That sounds about right.

 

Rob Bell:

I'm running out of words.

 

Words that start with T.

 

Anyway, Tom, guess what?

 

Yeah, well, I've been looking through your LinkedIn profile this time.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I'm not there.

 

Rob Bell:

I found a video clip of an interview you did after winning the Business Innovation Gold Award at the SME London Business Awards 2023.

 

When was that?

 

In January?

 

Tom Pellereau:

That was very recently, yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, congratulations, by the way.

 

In the interview, you are obviously and rightly very excited about winning.

 

But I couldn't help notice that at this Black Tie event, you opted to wear some flashing light up trainers with your suit.

 

What was going on there?

 

Tom Pellereau:

They are fantastic, aren't they?

 

I don't understand why everyone in the world doesn't have these flashing LED multicoloured shoes.

 

I have worn them for a couple of events.

 

Those particular ones are silver, and they're just epic.

 

Rob Bell:

Do you get a lot of attention, comments?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yes, you'd imagine.

 

Rob Bell:

Stick?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Amazingly, possibly because I don't tend to know the people at these events, they're actually very nice to me.

 

If I was out with you boys, I'd just get a load of the beauty.

 

Rob Bell:

Honestly, Tommy, good on you, I was loving it.

 

Jono, hello mate, how are you?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, very good, thank you.

 

Rob Bell:

On the subject of alternative footwear, I know there's been at least one occasion where you've rocked up somewhere with the wrong pair of shoes.

 

I'm thinking Richmond Park one time when we went for a run.

 

Jono Hey:

You know, you've got to be flexible with your shoe, your feet coverings.

 

This is the time that I turned up for a run without my running shoes and ran 10k in my work shoes.

 

Go home, do a bare feet?

 

Just run it in your work shoes, why not?

 

Rob Bell:

Such dedication.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Did you keep the shoes on though, Jono?

 

Because remember at uni, you always used to have a habit of always running home barefoot.

 

And arriving home with like really cut up feet.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, should we move on?

 

Rob Bell:

Back to Sketchplanations and sketches.

 

I was thinking in the week about other types of sketches that you might come across.

 

And I remembered that it was probably more than 10 years ago now at a wedding.

 

There was a sketch artist there who do your portrait, but a caricature portrait.

 

You see them quite a bit at tourist hotspots as well.

 

You can get it done.

 

And this artist did mine in about, it's probably less than five minutes.

 

She did it and I found it the other day.

 

And she gave me quite a big chin, big jaw and a big nose, which is fair.

 

Have you guys ever had those done?

 

Jono Hey:

I think just the once, literally, maybe in the prom for university or something like that.

 

I think I got it done once, but that's it.

 

Rob Bell:

Do you remember what characteristics they honed in on?

 

Jono Hey:

I have a feeling it was the eyebrows.

 

I remember having mega bushy eyebrows.

 

Rob Bell:

We're all individuals.

 

We're all just who we are.

 

Jono Hey:

This is a podcast, there's no video.

 

Rob Bell:

But on a slightly more, I don't know, cognitive note, maybe, it got me thinking that that caricature that was a seemingly very informal sketch, it can actually be quite powerful in terms of what it's trying to communicate.

 

So an informal style, like a sketch, can give you lots of creativity, to make your point, over and above, say, you know, a photo or a very realistic style drawing or painting or whatever.

 

Is that something you're aware of in your sketches, Jono, that you're maybe afforded a certain freedom through that style of the sketch?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I mean, a hundred percent.

 

It's a question of time and skill.

 

But I think it's not just that.

 

I think there is some value in it.

 

I don't know if you've seen it, but there was a fantastic documentary called The Art of Design.

 

In particular, they picked out this amazing illustrator called Christoph Nieman, I believe.

 

And he talked about, I remember, this sort of sketch spectrum of abstractness.

 

And he talked about the heart as an example.

 

I think it's a really good one where, you know, everybody knows the symbol for a heart, right?

 

So there was a little red triangle and the two bubbly bits on top.

 

But really, a heart is like this, you know, thing with veins and arteries and pulsing.

 

And so that's like one spectrum.

 

One side of the spectrum is this super realistic heart.

 

And the other side is like a red blob, red square, just some red, as like super abstract.

 

And actually, this sort of zone in the middle is where all the interesting stuff happens, right?

 

You don't get, you're not pinned down to like all the details of the heart, and you're not like just stuck in squares and lines, land.

 

Yeah, so somewhere in the middle, I think is, I think is nice.

 

And that's, I suppose, where it's convenient to be if you're just trying to convey the ideas.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

And not all the other stuff, the baggage that comes with it.

 

Rob Bell:

And that's the thing about graphics and illustrations, isn't it?

 

Tommy, I mean, you, you know, you put out products out there.

 

You must have graphics and design that goes into that.

 

Is that, is that something that you think about in your marketing and your, your packaging, kind of how you're going to portray through illustrations what, what you want to communicate?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, I'd love using drawings on the front of packaging to try and explain the USPs of certain products.

 

And it's really, really difficult often to concisely and in instructions, especially.

 

And in our beauty markets, it doesn't tend to be huge amounts of drawings, but certainly in the instructions a lot.

 

When you start talking about this, Rob, I'm immediately drawn to the kind of matte cartoons that are on the front of newspapers.

 

I love those because it's just like a, it's such simple line drawings.

 

But you instantly understand what he's talking about.

 

It's so current and usually incredibly funny.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, it's clever, isn't it?

 

It's very, very clever.

 

Just a few lines.

 

Jono Hey:

I really like as an alternative example, the, you know, it's always interesting to look at Ikea instructions.

 

You talk about instructions, you know, how do you make this?

 

And they always make it so that it works in every single language.

 

You only have to print one, right?

 

And you send it anywhere.

 

And how do you make it so that it's foolproof and everybody can always put it together?

 

It's quite intriguing.

 

Tom Pellereau:

So, you know, on the pre-challenge for The Apprentice, we did a pre-challenge task, and it was to put a set of IKEA shelves up as a group.

 

There were 12 or 24 of us in this room, and I believe they repeated this like five times.

 

It was like one of the last things to see if you got through to The Apprentice.

 

And then they were next door watching as we were trying to put this IKEA thing together.

 

You know, Glen and I, and there was another person got through.

 

Rob Bell:

What kind of role did you assume in that team building exercise?

 

Tom Pellereau:

I'd stayed at the back for quite a long time thinking, OK, well, I could just put this together quite quickly, but that's not going to help me out here.

 

And luckily there was another engineer in the room, and he immediately sort of like tried to take over and tried to make it happen.

 

And the others managed to kind of completely overhaul it.

 

And I think I managed to help put it together at the very end, when we were kind of running out of time.

 

Whilst the other guy was getting incredibly frustrated, because no one was really listening to him, because that's not how it works.

 

Rob Bell:

Pellereau, to save the day.

 

Chaos.

 

Well, before we get into the meat of this week's podcast, we just want to say a very big thank you to everybody who's messaged us and left comments about last week's episode, and in fact all of our previous episodes.

 

They're so, so welcome.

 

Please do keep them coming in.

 

And you can do that on social media or via our new email address, which is hello at sketchplanations.com.

 

And we'll be going through some of those right at the very end of the podcast.

 

Well, listen, guys, we're pushing well into a four and a half thousand words here.

 

So let's crack on with this week's episode.

 

Although that said, the topic of this week's podcast might not necessarily encourage us to talk that much.

 

This week, we're talking about the Sketchplanation entitled Don't Fill the Silence.

 

If you've not already looked up this sketch, it should be there on your screen right now as the artwork for this podcast episode.

 

Or as always, you can find it online or on social media through the links in the description for this episode.

 

Jono, why was this an important sketch for you to put out?

 

What made you think of it?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, you know what, I think of this all the time, because we're having conversations all the time, and it's this curious thing which is slightly uncomfortable to do and not wholly natural in some way, but is often beneficial.

 

So I know it, this principle of don't fill the silence, and the sketch talks about trusting your questions and weight.

 

And so I know it from doing design research, where you're looking for new product development, you're trying to understand and learn about people's lives and how they feel about things.

 

And really you're just trying to learn as much as you can.

 

And it's a curious exercise when you're trying to do that, because you have to ask questions, but you're really there to learn.

 

But you also have in the back of the mind that you wanna be a reasonable person.

 

And we always naturally wanna build rapport with the people that we're speaking with.

 

And so silences are quite awkward.

 

And so the sketch gives this example of, if you ask something quite innocuous, but maybe quite good, how do you feel about it?

 

It's very tempting to, if there's a pause there, to follow it up with something like, I guess it must've been hard for you, right?

 

And of course, what you've done there in that little bit is you ask this really nice open-ended question at the start, and then very quickly, because you were trying to fill this silence, you changed it to both a closed question, which is essentially a yes or no, and you also put your own aspect on it.

 

You presumed that people felt it was hard, let's say, in this case.

 

And so all you get at the end is a yes, as opposed to if you say, how do you feel about it?

 

And you give the person the chance to process the question, to think about it, because it might not be straightforward.

 

And then very often, you get back a much more nuanced, complex answer.

 

So I know it from that domain, but when I learned it in that domain, I saw also all the other places that you start to apply this.

 

And so that's why it's really important to me.

 

Rob Bell:

It is important.

 

I mean, in my work as a TV presenter, I've found myself filling that silence a number of times, and I don't like it when I've done it.

 

Jono Hey:

Can I just give one other example, which is really, really salient to me around this.

 

This is a long time ago.

 

We were actually doing some research in Central Valley of California, and we were doing an exercise with the community.

 

And I was there with my advisor, PhD advisor, and some other students, including some freshmen, who were part of the design team.

 

And we did an exercise somebody was conducting, which was all about listening.

 

And the exercise was to listen for a minute while the other person talked for a minute.

 

And you weren't allowed to say anything back.

 

You just had to listen, nod your head, no yeses, noes, no asking questions, no agreeing or anything like that.

 

And my advisor, an amazing woman, was paired with one of the freshmen.

 

And she said afterwards in the reflection, she was listening to the freshmen talking, and she said that, you know what, I'm a great interrupter.

 

And there were so many times where she paused in her sentences, and normally I would have filled it in with the words that she was looking for.

 

And then every time she surprised me with which way it went, every time.

 

And it's a real lesson to me.

 

There you go, you think that you know what somebody might be going to say or what's going on in their head, but actually you don't.

 

And that power of just pausing and listening, you don't know what they're about to say.

 

And so yeah, it really sticks with me, that because actually that's relevant in everything in all your conversations, I think.

 

Rob Bell:

It is, it is.

 

Tommy, where are you coming in on this?

 

Tom Pellereau:

This is one of the most powerful lessons I think that anyone can learn.

 

Rob Bell:

Don't be an idiot.

 

Just say that and then stop.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It really is.

 

Like whenever people ask me for advice, if they're going on The Apprentice or they feel that they're going on, my immediate reaction to them is go in, understand what you want to say in the boardroom especially, say it and then stop talking.

 

Because as soon as you carry on talking, you just dig your own hole, especially if you start to explain what you did well.

 

If you explain and you see it the whole time in the boardroom, people basically talking themselves out into being fired because he's just fed up of hearing them and they're trying to explain how they were better than the other person.

 

Say some stuff and then just shut up.

 

Rob Bell:

Shut it.

 

Well, I was going to ask you about silences with you and Lord Sugar.

 

And in your one-to-ones, if that's the case, because obviously in The Apprentice, I think that's a great example.

 

You're in amongst all these other people and it would be so easy to just keep going, keep trying to fight your corner and argue your case.

 

But as you say, probably the longer you go on, the weaker your argument gets.

 

But between you and Shugs, can you, like on a, I don't know, on a meeting or something, can you think of silences?

 

Would you be comfortable doing that?

 

Tom Pellereau:

A little bit.

 

And I do try very hard in meeting with him.

 

And I know it really frustrates him that sometimes I'm there thinking for a little bit.

 

And that's quite helpful.

 

Jono, I obviously spent a long time with Jono.

 

Jono is excellent at this, making sure he thinks through and often channel my inner Jono when I'm in these conversations.

 

And I've had a couple, I remember very specifically, not with Lord Sugar, but with a buyer, with a really massive retail buyer where I had to break some news, which I knew would be very bad for them.

 

And they could decide to kick me out.

 

And I was in this conversation going, this is a seriously important question.

 

And she asked me a question back and I just was quiet for a really quite a long time trying to work out an answer and then worked it out and said it, and then just didn't try to explain further.

 

And she kind of, and we had this sort of stalemate on the call of who's gonna break first.

 

And then she eventually went, luckily for me, all right then, okay.

 

Like that, but you could sense that we were on this call.

 

Rob Bell:

Because there are obviously loads of different conversations that we have with different people in different scenarios and contexts all the time.

 

But so in the case of a negotiation then, if that's what that was, or something similar to a negotiation where you need to put your point across and then that's it, and you put it to the other person, because that's what negotiation is about, isn't it?

 

You state your position, and then you put the ball in their court.

 

Right, over to you.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, and sales is a huge, this is a hugely powerful aspect in sales often.

 

They talk about this a lot in sales books.

 

Rob Bell:

Do they?

 

I mean, are there times where it's actually better to fill the silence, do you think?

 

Stop being silent.

 

Jono Hey:

Just thinking, formulating an answer.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I'm sure there are, a podcast is probably a good example of where, yeah, it is.

 

So this is probably isn't great.

 

Rob Bell:

Stop taking so long to answer.

 

Jono Hey:

A radio commentator or something like that, yeah.

 

A football commentator.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, no, but in performance, in performance, generally, silences can be very powerful.

 

On stage and drama, silences can be very, very powerful.

 

When you're watching telly, you see quite a few scenes where nothing's being said.

 

It's just the movement and just watching what's happening.

 

Comedy, silence is definitely a part of timing in delivery of punch lines and setups, I'd say.

 

But yeah, on an audio only media, I'd say silences aren't the best.

 

Tom Pellereau:

So Rob, I don't know if you've find it, well, you've just said it, that you find this when you are watching back an interview you've done, and you see, and then you didn't necessarily realize at the time that you'd interrupted that person or you hadn't given them time to think about it.

 

But I've really seen that.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, in my stuff, yeah.

 

Sorry, not in you.

 

No, I realized it at the time when I've done it, because when you watch it back, it's all edited out anyway.

 

But I realize it when I've done it, and then I break myself for it again.

 

You should have left that how it was.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, so my emergency biscuit idea is probably the thing that most people comes out of.

 

That emergency biscuit, that was a great idea.

 

And then I watched that episode back, and I'm in this group, and there's 12 people in whatever it's called, a market research group.

 

And I said this idea to them, what about an emergency biscuit?

 

And then I literally only gave it about three seconds, and they were all sort of silent.

 

And I immediately went, oh, lead balloon, let's move on to the next one.

 

If I'd been silent and just waited for a little bit longer, then people might have been like, actually, that's quite, I quite like that.

 

They were just in thought, rather than necessarily in agreement, it might seem.

 

Rob Bell:

But then your suggestion to move on, everyone followed.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Exactly, yes.

 

We did Bix Mix, one of the worst ideas I've ever been involved in.

 

Rob Bell:

Did you win that one?

 

Tom Pellereau:

No.

 

Jono Hey:

It's so easy to water down your ideas, isn't it?

 

You say something and that little pause makes you think twice sometimes.

 

And then you go, okay, maybe it's like you said about the negotiation.

 

It's so easy to go, okay, I'll qualify it with this.

 

Or maybe that's not going to work.

 

And then before you know it, you just, yeah, you fill the gap with rubbish.

 

Age of position, worse, yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

One of the contexts of conversation that I've been in where silence is very powerful is in therapy, counselling, and you get asked the question and the counsellor is very happy to sit there in the silence.

 

Very comfortable with it.

 

Jono Hey:

Very skilled silence creators.

 

Rob Bell:

Absolutely.

 

Jono Hey:

You can sit there forever, can't they?

 

Rob Bell:

I just remember looking out the window trying to think about what my answer was.

 

So it was quite quiet on that sense as well.

 

And then I got distracted and started looking at the bricks in the building opposite.

 

Yeah, so it wasn't a very productive question and answer that one.

 

But I think in therapy, in that kind of context, those silences are really, really powerful and they will yield some progression, whatever it is you might be looking for.

 

Jono Hey:

But for sure, I'm someone I know that takes longer to form opinions.

 

And I like, as you mentioned, I like to think things through before I say them.

 

Some people just sort of say what they think as they go and you can see him working out.

 

I usually sit there and think for a second and say it.

 

And I remember thinking, so people will pass me in the corridor and say, Hey Jono, how are you?

 

How's things?

 

And I find it a really tricky question sometimes, because I don't want to give some like glib, good, how are you?

 

I mean, maybe that's probably what you're supposed to do.

 

But somebody asked me how I am and I'm like, good question.

 

Well, I guess something.

 

And by that point, they're already walking down the corridor.

 

Get much more than they bargained for.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I think maybe that's a good example of where silence is just not what people are looking for.

 

They're just looking for like high.

 

Rob Bell:

Nod.

 

Jono Hey:

But maybe this is just nod at me then.

 

Ask me how I am.

 

I'll tell you how I am.

 

You want to sit down?

 

Rob Bell:

Have you got time for coffee?

 

Tom Pellereau:

So here's a question.

 

Do you often, I find it a bit where, like to that question, I will react like with my thumb up before I can actually react with my voice.

 

Jono Hey:

Very interesting.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, you just programmed.

 

Tom Pellereau:

That's not necessary to that question, but quite often I do find that my body language is able to communicate before my speech, as it were, sometimes.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

What specifically to the, how are you?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Well, to sort of the quick questions that sort of necessarily come at you sometimes.

 

Rob Bell:

What about at work when you're managing people and you might, I don't know, if you're running a team meeting or on a more individual sense, one-to-one, would you guys both be quite comfortable asking a question and leaving silence in those scenarios?

 

In fact, they're quite two different scenarios because one's in a group where you're talking to a group and leaving a silence, and the other is to an individual.

 

Is there a difference there about how comfortable we are generally?

 

Jono Hey:

I would say there's probably value in it in both places, but I think particularly as somebody, as a manager or a leader, if you're trying to coach and help people grow and develop, silence is probably a really valuable tool, you know.

 

It's the sort of thing where it's very easy to think as a manager that you have to have all the answers.

 

And so you have to say what should happen or what they should do.

 

But actually, usually most of the growth comes when they have time to think about it and they're gonna formulate the actions.

 

And so I think there silence is key.

 

Rob Bell:

Tommy, you're very quiet.

 

Stop thinking, start talking.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I'm thinking.

 

As you say, a lot of thinking on this podcast is not necessarily the most useful.

 

Rob Bell:

You've given me a lot of editing to do.

 

I'm gonna have to edit out all these silences.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's really good one.

 

Everyone should just be quiet a little bit more and think about stuff.

 

So do you remember for GCSE, you had to make your selections of which subjects you were gonna give up and which ones you were gonna have to keep.

 

So at school, I was absolutely hopeless at French.

 

I mean, hopeless.

 

I'd never passed a French exam ever, but at my school, you had to do a language for GCSE.

 

So I was gonna have to give up history, which I really enjoyed and I was okay at to do French.

 

So I walked in to have this discussion with my form master and he said to me, which subject would you like to give up?

 

And I said, well, I'd like to give up French.

 

And then I just sort of left it there.

 

I didn't necessarily, I don't know if I even realized at the time, but I just sort of left it there, knowing that he would say, well, that's impossible.

 

But actually he went, well, actually I'll see what I can do.

 

I could not believe my luck.

 

I was like, I hate French and maybe this is gonna be possible.

 

And I just sort of stood there for a bit and went, okay.

 

And sort of was like almost legged out the room.

 

Jono Hey:

It's a good win, change your life.

 

Tom Pellereau:

French.

 

Rob Bell:

On holiday.

 

Tom Pellereau:

On holiday, exactly.

 

And ironically, with my surname, I get people in France always start talking to me in French.

 

And I'm like, en anglais, c'est du blé?

 

That's my French.

 

Rob Bell:

How did you do in history in the end?

 

All right, good, well done.

 

Are we hypothesizing here that by embracing silences in conversations, we might actually be truer to ourselves?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah.

 

Rob Bell:

That's a big one.

 

Tom Pellereau:

There were huge moments in my life, come on.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, same.

 

Rob Bell:

The power of silence.

 

Jono Hey:

Funny, isn't it?

 

Just the power of a little silence.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, a little.

 

Jono Hey:

Just a little.

 

Rob Bell:

A little silence.

 

Jono Hey:

You know we should.

 

Can I share one of my favorite sketches as a topic?

 

Anyway, it's really simple.

 

It's one which is just a quote, which is listen with the same passion that you want to be heard.

 

And we so often just want to be, we want people to hear us.

 

And so you talk, here I am extolling my viewpoint, I adnose him.

 

But actually, you know, when you're having a relationship and a conversation with somebody, you want to channel that same passion, that same desire to get your viewpoint out, but in your listening instead.

 

And I think it's just a lovely quote.

 

I remember, I don't know if you've ever read How to Win Friends and Influence People, the old Dale Carnegie classic.

 

And here's this curious thing, you know, like people like you, the more that they have a chance to talk about themselves, if you want to seem interesting, you have to genuinely be interested in them, which is the curious thing.

 

Like you don't have to do all the talking.

 

But it's funny, isn't it?

 

That somebody might think you're better if you didn't say anything.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

I'll be quiet now.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And almost the more, the less you talk, the more intelligent they think you are.

 

Rob Bell:

So if you were embroidered in a silence, in a conversation that you're having with someone, would you rather be on the receiving end of the silence or would you rather ask the question and leave the silence?

 

Where would you be more comfortable?

 

Which side of the conversation do you think?

 

Jono Hey:

For me, it's-

 

Tom Pellereau:

Good question.

 

Jono Hey:

I'll let you think, Tom.

 

For me, it's the receiving end.

 

I like to have the time to think.

 

Rob Bell:

So how long, roughly, before you start to feel like, oh, I should probably start answering something now, even if I haven't properly figured out what I'm gonna say.

 

Jono Hey:

Well, as you can tell in this podcast, I can wait quite a long time before-

 

Before I feel comfortable about what I'm about to say.

 

If you've asked me an interesting question like, how are you?

 

I'm gonna really have to think about it.

 

I'll take a while.

 

Rob Bell:

I feel like this was naive of me to bring this particular sketch to the podcast.

 

We've never done one like this before.

 

We've never done one when there's been so many silences and just waiting and I'm not comfortable with it.

 

Jono Hey:

You asked for it, Rob.

 

I did.

 

Rob Bell:

Bloody asked for it.

 

Oh my God.

 

Right.

 

Tom Pellereau:

In answer to your question, Rob, often when I'm giving long silences as an answer, it's because the question is very tricky and the answer is therefore really quite important and could go one of a number of different ways.

 

So the situations I've been in where there's been long pauses, it's because I'm like really thinking through different answers.

 

And if the question was easier, I would probably answer it quicker.

 

Rob Bell:

Whereas I think my go-to would be to almost talk through my selection of different options out loud.

 

Yeah, I think that's probably how I tend to do it.

 

Because I'll start talking.

 

Yeah, just say words.

 

Jono Hey:

This is very meta.

 

Rob Bell:

Just say some words.

 

That buys you a bit more time to think about what you can say.

 

Then you say it.

 

And then once you've heard it, actually, no, I think the opposite is what I think.

 

Jono Hey:

I'm just looking at you and picturing your brain working away at the next thing that's gonna come out of your mouth as you're talking.

 

It's a mess.

 

Buying yourself time.

 

Rob Bell:

It's an absolute mess.

 

Jono Hey:

I will say that the genesis for this was like a work situation as much as anything.

 

So it has all sorts of relevance in all sorts of domains of your life, but I'm not guaranteeing it's the way to make friends and fit in.

 

Rob Bell:

How to alienate people.

 

Jono Hey:

To bear in mind.

 

Rob Bell:

To make friends.

 

Tom Pellereau:

To lose friends and alienate people.

 

Jono Hey:

And be on your own.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, listen, chaps, I think one thing, and actually, you know what?

 

But I'm not gonna say that.

 

I wrote this.

 

I wrote this as like a scripted roundup to the end of this episode saying, one thing I find quite astounding about this week's podcast is just how much noise we've managed to create when talking about silence, where I don't mean that, actually, as it turns out.

 

That's not been the case at all.

 

There's been so much silence.

 

I feel quite awkward about this.

 

You both have made me feel quite awkward for 50 minutes.

 

Jono Hey:

That's what I mean.

 

That's what I'm talking about.

 

Rob Bell:

Jono and Tommy going to bed so happy tonight.

 

Yep, job done.

 

Filled my podcast with silence.

 

You haven't, you haven't, but it's been different.

 

There's a different style and tone about this.

 

Do you agree to this podcast?

 

Jono Hey:

Just consider in my response.

 

I do agree, Robert.

 

Rob Bell:

Listeners, if you've got this far and you haven't questioned whether your headphones are still working or not, if you have stories about filling the silence or not filling the silence, in fact, we'd love to hear about them, and you can leave us messages and comments on Instagram and Twitter.

 

Thank you, boys.

 

And thank you all very much for joining us and listening in once again on this podcast.

 

Maybe you can try and incorporate a bit of silence into your own conversations every once in a while for a bit of fun, if nothing else.

 

But in closing this week, I'd like to come back to value.

 

Value for your ears.

 

That's what I promised at the top of this episode.

 

And rightly or wrongly, I defined a quantitative figure of 4,500 words to produce a supremely valuable podcast here.

 

Well, I've counted up and the results are in.

 

5,867 words.

 

Mega value.

 

Stay tuned right until the very end of this episode after the music stops.

 

Well, we'll be going through a good few of your messages and comments about previous episodes.

 

Please like, rate, subscribe and tell your friends about the podcast.

 

Next week, we're gonna be talking about something called the Fresh Start Effect.

 

Until then everyone, stay well, go well.

 

Cheers, goodbye.

 

It's been a pleasure.

 

Thank you everyone.

 

All music on this podcast series is sourced from the very talented Franc Cinelli.

 

And you can find loads more tracks at franccinelli.com.

 

Thank you for staying to the very end of the podcast.

 

Right, let's delve into the post bag and see what's come in over the last week.

 

Well, thank you to everybody who's told us about their thoughts on phubbing.

 

I mean, it was a good one.

 

We had quite a lot of stuff in on Instagram and Twitter, a couple of emails through.

 

One of the things I wanted to talk about on Instagram was when I put up about the podcast on phubbing, I put out a couple of polls, and I've got the results of those polls.

 

So one, I asked the question, are you a phubber?

 

62% of people said no, and 38% of people said yes.

 

Which I just love the righteousness.

 

I think all those guys in the 62% are probably like me.

 

No, in fact, if you prodded them on it a little bit, you'd be going, oh yeah, well maybe I do sometimes.

 

Yeah, yeah, but not intentionally.

 

I don't mean to, I'm not as bad as everyone else.

 

That's my defence.

 

And the other question I asked was, does fubbing annoy you?

 

And 71% of people said yes, and 29% of people said, no, it's no big deal.

 

It's what people do.

 

So that's the quantitative.

 

Now let's have a look at the qualitative feedback we had.

 

I mean, I did see a number of rather lewd messages taking the word fubbing well out of context that were put up on Twitter.

 

I won't go into any of those.

 

Quite a specific note came in from a chap called Adam on Twitter saying, it's annoying when someone turns up at your house unexpectedly, then spends a lot of time looking at their phone.

 

I'm an unsociable git at the best of times.

 

And I always think, well, if you're that hooked on your phone, you could have just texted me.

 

And then at least you wouldn't be here.

 

I just, I love how specific that is.

 

When someone turns up at their house, not just up to the house, when they turn up unexpectedly.

 

Jono Hey:

Effectively, that's brilliant.

 

Rob Bell:

I love that.

 

I thought I really enjoyed that.

 

Prech again on Twitter said, mid-sentence, a friend's phone suddenly pinged and she never finished what she was saying.

 

We lost her to a mobile phone.

 

This is a normal scenario.

 

And sadly it is.

 

Jono Hey:

Do you want, that reminds me of, we didn't talk about it in the episode, but there's a sketch of something called continuous partial attention, which is just a really nice little phrase.

 

And the sketch for that is a little bit like that scenario.

 

It's like, I don't know, the dad is cooking and the thing's bubbling over and the mum's sat there probably arranging the school thing next week and the baby's painting on the floor and the teenager's like, so I'm going now.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

Bye.

 

Rob Bell:

Yes.

 

Jono Hey:

It's that kind of thing, isn't it?

 

It's like, have you finished the, sorry, what?

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

And that's not necessarily specific to the phone, is it?

 

That's just, you're trying to concentrate on more than one thing at a time.

 

But my brain's not great at that.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, but I think it is driven as a thing by now being a problem for the technology.

 

But yeah, it could be anything.

 

Rob Bell:

A lot of that, was it partial attention?

 

No.

 

Jono Hey:

Continuous, partial attention.

 

Continuous, partial.

 

Paying attention, always a little bit to everything.

 

Rob Bell:

I reckon a lot of that comes from just trying to be polite.

 

And instead of saying, hang on one sec, I just need to finish this.

 

Instead of that, go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

Whilst you're finishing your article or finishing inputting your spreadsheet, whatever, rather than saying, hang on, hang on.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, don't you do that to me, Robert.

 

Rob Bell:

But yeah, there are quite a few messages of people who are acknowledging the fact that fubbing is definitely a thing.

 

I mean, yeah, there's one on Instagram here.

 

I hate that.

 

I hate how normal and accepted it's become.

 

Yeah, yeah, tough.

 

I mean, I'm with these guys.

 

I'm with them.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I think maybe also you've got someone sort of apologising.

 

Rob Bell:

Did I?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, I read a message from one of our friends saying, I'm really sorry, was this about me?

 

Rob Bell:

And then they also then accuse me of fubbing when I get my phone out to film stuff that I'll inevitably forget to put on social media later on.

 

So yeah, fair.

 

Jono Hey:

Do you know what?

 

Rob Bell:

Red-handed.

 

Jono Hey:

A bit of like a fundamental problem with Instagram as a concept.

 

And at least it's not so instant now, but like the idea that I'm doing something right now and I'm going to take a picture and take a few moments to tweak the photo and send it while I'm doing the thing is sort of offensive, isn't it?

 

Rob Bell:

Like-

 

It's offensive, that's a great word.

 

Jono Hey:

It's taking you away from everything that you do.

 

Most of the time, I think it's not that anymore, right?

 

Like people think about, they plan Instagram posts, but if you're always on your phone, Instagram, like that's a way to disrupt whatever's going on at the moment, isn't it?

 

Rob Bell:

Tommy, did you have something going back?

 

Back a couple of weeks to yak shaving.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yes, so my dad says hello.

 

My dad, bless him.

 

He's been listening to the podcast.

 

And so yak shaving, he was like, hang on, Tom, to get the wool off a yak, I thought you combed a yak and you don't shave them at all.

 

I was like, hang on, this gives you an idea, if actually yak shaving isn't even a thing.

 

And I looked it up and he is partially correct that you do comb a yak first to get the thinner hair off, which is more valuable until you get that.

 

And then you do shave them afterwards.

 

So he is partially correct.

 

And I was like, oh my gosh, is yak shaving?

 

And I was like, Jono, is this actually the ultimate irony that yak shaving isn't even something that you do either?

 

Jono Hey:

I think that was the idea that it doesn't.

 

I thought you were gonna say that your dad has shaved a yak.

 

And when I did it, I couldn't there.

 

Rob Bell:

I wouldn't put it past him.

 

Tom Pellereau:

No, he's done many things.

 

Rob Bell:

Your dad's a multi-skilled man.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Exactly.

 

But he did have me for a while there.

 

He was probably just, it was probably a joke, but yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

Couldn't pay attention to any of the rest of the episode.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, what?

 

Jono Hey:

He doesn't make any sense.

 

Rob Bell:

There it is again.

 

They've said, yeah, actually rubbish.

 

It's very good.

 

Oh, bless him.

 

Jono Hey:

Good, good.

 

Rob Bell:

Keep them coming in.

 

We love it.

 

So yeah, you can get in touch with us on social media or send us an email at hello at sketchplanations.com.

 

But that's it.

 

Thanks again.

 

Cheerio.

 

Goodbye.

 

Jono Hey:

Thanks, everyone.