Creativity through Music Composition

Franc Cinelli:

At some point, you also have to put your kind of grown up hat on and go, okay, we now need to move on to the next stage because otherwise you can't work on a piece of music endlessly.

 

Jono Hey:

Hans Zimmer did a masterclass and he said, one of the things he does is if you sit at the piano, like sit on your hands until you come up with something.

 

Rob Bell:

This week, we'll be talking about Jono's sketch that addresses music composition.

 

Tom Pellereau:

They confiscated my notebooks and my pens and they're like, no, you're not allowed to.

So during the task, I'd kind of collect them.

I'd have them sort of secretly stashed so that I could write stuff down.

 

Franc Cinelli:

I want to do something great and I haven't got press here for great button on my, in my studio, so, you know, where do you start with that?

 

Rob Bell:

Hello and welcome to Sketchplanations, the podcast.

 

As far back as I can remember, I always wanted to be a podcaster.

That's right, we're still coming in hot with more episodes this series.

Think of this as a public service, if you like.

You pay your taxes, pay your taxes, right?

So why shouldn't you have access to premium audio content?

What's more, in this series, we strive to help you live, love, laugh.

You think I'm funny?

Funny how?

Funny like a clown?

Do I amuse you?

I'm Rob Bell, an average nobody. I get to live the rest of my life like a schnook.

Over there is Tom Pellereau. Tommy was the kind of guy who rooted for the bad guy in the movies.

And leading from the front, the boss of Sketchplanations, Jono Hey.

 

We always call each other Good Fellas.

Good evening, fellas.

How are you both?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Very, very good link.

 

Rob Bell:

Can you place the movie?

 

I was surreptitiously quoting from that.

 

Jono Hey:

Sneakily putting the title in in the last word.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Good Fellas.

 

Great film.

 

Great film.

 

Do you guys like gangster movies?

 

Tom Pellereau:

They also make pizzas as well, don't they?

 

Was that a branch too far?

 

Jono Hey:

You never know where Tom's mind is going to go.

 

I do remember Bugsy Malone.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, that's a good gangster film.

 

Jono Hey:

Gangster movies, I can custard pies at each other.

 

Cream pies.

 

Rob Bell:

Brilliant.

 

Oh yeah, like with the cream pies with Tommy guns.

 

I've always been a massive fan of gangster films.

 

And specifically all the Martin Scorsese ones.

 

So Goodfellas is New York mafia gangster stuff.

 

It's absolutely classic 1990s.

 

Casino came out a little bit later on, another Scorsese, I think.

 

But they're all really, really long, these films.

 

Goodfellas is almost two and a half hours.

 

Casino is almost three hours.

 

The Irishman, do you remember that?

 

Scorsese brought that out on Netflix, probably around the time of the pandemic.

 

It's three and a half hours.

 

Jono Hey:

Well, considering we struggled to get this podcast down below 45 minutes, it's not bad going, is it?

 

If you're filming for three years.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's three and a half hours.

 

About one picture.

 

Jono Hey:

Hundreds of people, massive budgets.

 

Can we get another five minutes?

 

No.

 

Sorry.

 

Yeah, fair enough.

 

Can you stay for another five minutes to watch my life's work?

 

I need to get home and buy popcorn or something.

 

It's very impatient, aren't we?

 

We're sitting here to read a book for hours and hours and hours.

 

I guess actually, I mean, I think that's what, a bit like Netflix and that have changed, you know, like more of a serialization thing.

 

You actually, you can cover a lot more content because you're sat there for the whole series.

 

Rob Bell:

Do you guys have films that you've watched over and over again?

 

And I'm not talking about like, films that you've been made to watch by your kids.

 

Are there films that you think you've watched the most over and over again?

 

I don't think they always have to be your favourite films necessarily, they're just the ones that you might put on.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I feel like I've watched Ferris Bueller's Day Off a lot.

 

I don't know why, it's really fun.

 

Jono Hey:

I think I used to, I used to watch films again, or multiple times.

 

I don't tend to do that much now.

 

There's a sketch like three and a half thousand lifetime books, lifetime reads.

 

And I feel a bit like that with films.

 

They're making so many films, I can't possibly keep up with them.

 

There must be a new amazing film that I've not watched, or even not a new one that's amazing that I've not watched.

 

So maybe I should spend my time doing that instead of watching one that I have watched.

 

It's how I feel when I think about watching a film.

 

Rob Bell:

I am with you on that.

 

I do understand that.

 

It's not like you don't know what happens.

 

It's not like you're on the edge of your seat for the plot.

 

But I think there's an enjoyment with the familiarity and the performances of films that really do appeal to you, that you just wanna keep going back to.

 

Jono Hey:

Harry Potter films, keep watching those.

 

Rob Bell:

Have you?

 

Star Wars, keep watching those.

 

Tom Pellereau:

There are a lot of both of those, though.

 

Jono Hey:

But it helps, doesn't it?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Was it a new one, was it a different one?

 

Jono Hey:

Well, by the time you've finished watching the last one, you've forgotten about the early ones.

 

Rob Bell:

I do get that as well.

 

I mean, I've got a really bad memory for plot points.

 

My memory generally is fine, but for plot points.

 

Yeah, I know, but sometimes I do find myself watching a film.

 

I know I've watched it before, but I can't really remember what happens.

 

And I get, I'm quite happy about that.

 

So great, I get to almost watch this for the first time again.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Do you watch your own things regularly?

 

Rob Bell:

Not normally more than once, no.

 

I will watch them when they go out.

 

I enjoy that, because that's the first time I really get to see it in its completed version.

 

Yeah.

 

So that's nice to see how it's all come together.

 

See if there are any surprises.

 

I haven't used that whole scene, that took us ages to get that right, and it was freezing cold.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Cut the whole lot.

 

So they made me stand in that lake in the freezing cold for no reason.

 

Rob Bell:

It's all part of the process, it's all part of the creative process, isn't it?

 

Jono Hey:

We've watched multiple Rob Bell episodes, the same ones with the kids.

 

Rob Bell:

Oh, thanks guys.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, it's really good, they love it.

 

Can we watch the submarines again?

 

Rob Bell:

Is it because they're layered?

 

You know, each time you watch it, you get something new from it.

 

Jono Hey:

As they get older, yeah.

 

New vistas start revealing themselves, it's great.

 

Rob Bell:

Good fun though, I do love it, I do love it.

 

Well, look, that is the intro done.

 

Now go home and get your f*cking shine box.

I'm so sorry.... 

That was the only famous quote from the film that I hadn't used already in the intro.

 

Here's this week's podcast.

 

Oh, gosh.

 

This week, we'll be talking about Jono's sketch that addresses music composition.

 

And we'll explore how any philosophies, techniques and methodology used can translate to other areas of life.

 

Now, before we get into this episode's discussion, I'd like to remind you that you should be able to see the sketch for this on your device screens right now.

 

And if not, or if you wanna see more sketches, head to sketchplanations.com.

 

I'm also certain that there must be some musical talent amongst our listeners.

 

And so we'd love to hear your experiences of composing music that we can share on the podcast in our post-bag segment at the end of each episode.

 

Please send your emails to hello at sketchplanations.com.

 

Now, I'm delighted to say that we have an expert guest joining us on the show this week, whose work regular listeners will be very familiar with.

 

Now we use three different tracks on this podcast, and all three were composed, recorded and published by singer-songwriter-producer, Franc Cinelli.

 

Now, Franc is a London-based Italian musical wizard, who's released numerous albums, EPs and singles.

 

He produces independent artists at his Song Circle studio, and he regularly composes music for TV commercials, short films and other visual storytelling projects.

 

In addition to all that, he's also a good fella.

 

And I'm very proud to say a good friend of mine, Tommy and Jono's, Franc, you're welcome, mate.

 

Franc Cinelli:

Good evening.

 

Thank you very much for the wonderful introduction.

 

It's very kind of you indeed.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Very true.

 

Jono Hey:

It's so nice to have you with us, Franc.

 

Franc Cinelli:

Thank you.

 

Thank you.

 

Good to see you all.

 

Rob Bell:

Do you know what, Franc, we received some really lovely comments about the music on the podcast.

 

So thank you for that, mate.

 

I think it really fits with the kind of tone and style of what we do.

 

Franc Cinelli:

Fantastic.

 

I'm so pleased to hear that that's why I make music, to accompany people, whether that be a feeling, a thought or an event, that's what it's there for.

 

It's there for human sharing.

 

Rob Bell:

Exactly, I was gonna say that.

 

We're gonna come on to exactly that, you know, matching music with...

 

Franc Cinelli:

Well, it's matching music with the story, whatever that story may be.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, thank you.

 

Franc Cinelli:

And it doesn't have to be a story.

 

The story could be a feeling, it could be an event, it could be an emotion, it's just something that you need.

 

Music gives it the wheels to kind of just move along.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, it does.

 

And that's exactly what it does to the podcast, right?

 

It moves us along.

 

At the beginning, it sets a pace, and then it moves us from one section to another.

 

It's a premium.

 

Now it's interesting preparing this episode because, I mean, there are so many directions we could end up taking this discussion, but I wanted to try and make sure that we focus on the composing, on the creating, as per the sketch.

 

And through that, I think we can ensure that it's hopefully inclusive of listeners who don't necessarily play music or have much knowledge of music, because that process of creating and producing something, I think can probably be applied to anything.

 

I mean, here at Sketchplanations, the podcast, we are nothing if not generalists, right?

 

And in fact, and amongst us, we have a full range of musical competence here in this foursome tonight.

 

I'd say Frankie's right at the top of that, a professional musician, songwriter.

 

Jono's definitely a close second.

 

Grade eight piano, Jono?

 

Jono Hey:

I did grade six before I stopped doing grades.

 

Rob Bell:

Slacker.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, a little while ago.

 

Rob Bell:

But you've also written and recorded and produced a few albums, haven't you?

 

Jono Hey:

I have, yeah, lots of stuff.

 

But decidedly amateur musician, doing it because I love it.

 

Rob Bell:

You had a track played at the Ministry of Sound as well?

 

Jono Hey:

We did, yeah.

 

Yeah, a little collaboration with a trance DJ.

 

Rob Bell:

I'd probably put me next, a very amateur enthusiast, I think I'd say.

 

I've played in lots of different bands, but none recently.

 

And then Tommy, recorder at primary school?

 

Tom Pellereau:

So Trumpet, I have a very, very musical family.

 

So my auntie was an opera singer in the day, and my mum is quite a singer.

 

So in my family, I am absolutely the worst musician at all.

 

Hilariously, in Sarah's family, they're all quite tone deaf.

 

So when I go to have Christmas with them, I'm the musical one, which is quite a fantastic sort of change around.

 

Jono Hey:

You are a good singer, Tom.

 

Rob Bell:

I stand corrected.

 

Jono Hey:

Whenever I've been at an event with you and there's been a song, like in a church, for a wedding or something like that, I'm always glad to be near you, because you're keeping the whole thing going.

 

We're you and your family, but my family is.

 

But you're helping out and I'm not.

 

Tom Pellereau:

So the full range, you are absolutely correct.

 

Rob Bell:

Levels of musical competence.

 

And Frankie, I mean, you know three of us fairly well already, but to kick things off, I thought it'd be interesting if you took us back through your journey as a musician and as a professional musician, because I know that certain aspects have changed a little bit over time in your career and what you're trying to do.

 

Can you give us a kind of brief summary of how you started and what you've tried to achieve has changed and where your focus as a singer-songwriter is now?

 

Franc Cinelli:

Well, I think first of all, for me, music is something that always just intrigued me, it fascinated me.

 

I've always found it a very kind of mystical thing that drew me in and that probably started just with listening to music on the radio or my mom's records, that there was always music playing and I just always found it a really magical thing.

 

And then when I started, I started playing the violin when I was like nine at school and I would always getting in trouble because I never learned to read music because the teacher would say, we're learning this piece and she would play it just as an example.

 

And all I needed was to hear her play it and then I would just go away and figure it out.

 

So at home, I'd be playing this tune and my mom thought I was practicing.

 

But then when we had like the test or whatever, couldn't read a note because I never learned to read, but I could just play the song.

 

And I just always enjoyed playing and always enjoyed just the notes and like just ditties.

 

And I have a little niece now and I'm always, and she does piano lessons and I'm always encouraging her, yes, do that, but also just sit and just have a tinker, have a play, because that's really fun and that's when your imagination can set sail.

 

And then from that you take whatever, there's so many things you can take from that, whether you do music or not.

 

But when I started playing the guitar when I was 13, it was just an instant connection.

 

It was two magnets and I was like, this is what I wanna do.

 

There's nothing else that I can do.

 

So it's now my job, just kind of by default, because I just would be useless at doing anything else.

 

It's where my mind is all the time.

 

Not normal, I guess, but it's just where I am all the time.

 

I'm thinking of pieces, I'm listening to pieces and going, what's going on with that?

 

Because then as I've gotten into it over the years, music production and arrangement is such an important thing and technology is such an important thing.

 

And I started as a singer-songwriter, put up a few records, did a lot of touring, which I'm still doing.

 

But then at some point, while I was touring and having those very long bus journeys or train journeys, the kind of music that I was listening to, just to accompany me from one gig to the other, started to, I guess, develop.

 

So I had my favorites growing up, the Bob Dylan's, the Bruce Springsteen's, but then at some point, it also became the soundtracks to films.

 

Like I remember the first, that really comes to mind is like the soundtrack to Blade Runner by Evangelis, which is a soundtrack that I'm sure a lot of people will know.

 

And I just enjoyed listening to that as music in its own right.

 

And that was a really fascinating thing.

 

And then you just go down all these fantastic rabbit holes of artists that make music for films.

 

But to me, the stories that they tell also work as compositions in their own right.

 

And so then it expanded to, yes, I wanna write music with words as songs, pop songs with choruses, but I also like the emotion, the freedom, the wider goalposts that you have writing instrumental music.

 

And so that combined with the production work I do with my artists at my studio, it's just evolved now that I do a lot of different things, but it's all the same thing.

 

It's all trying to translate an emotion in music.

 

And the sketch I think is perfect.

 

That's exactly what composing music is about.

 

Like start with a blank piece of paper and dive in and just let your imagination, just give it a chance because you can fill that page.

 

You can fill a hundred pages if you're brave enough.

 

Rob Bell:

That's brilliant.

 

Frankie, you've brought us round to the sketch.

 

Jono, I mean, you've written a lot of tracks as well.

 

Do you want to talk us through why you wanted to do this sketch and maybe explain how you started writing music?

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, for sure.

 

I mean, so it's quite an old sketch.

 

It was 10 years ago, this one I did.

 

I wanted to do this sketch and the sketch is just really simple.

 

It's essentially a piano with a blank piece of paper and a plea to, if you want to compose, just sit down without actually having any music.

 

And I wanted to do it because it was kind of like a realization to me.

 

And I often think, like, if it's something that was a realization to me, maybe it will be to somebody else.

 

I think I'm probably quite a different musician in some ways to Franc Cinelli.

 

And I went through my exams and I was doing the music theory and doing all the reading music.

 

And I used to just play music, right?

 

And that's what you do when you're learning music.

 

Or at least Franc Cinelli used to listen and just go with it, which is amazing.

 

I used to have all my music, my favorite tracks I would like and I'd sit down and play them.

 

And where I discovered this, I always felt like it was a big jump.

 

Like, how do you write music?

 

How do you just make stuff up and know what notes you should play?

 

It seems like this impossible leap to make if all you've ever done is look at music and follow the instructions.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

And interpret it.

 

Rob Bell:

Follow the instructions, yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, you know, this says like now play G for this length and now play, then play C quickly or whatever.

 

And so you're just following the instructions and obviously you listen to the sound you're making and you put your emotion into it when you're playing it.

 

But to go, right, I'm gonna just create something out of thin air.

 

I always think that's a tough call to make and I'd say that I started this sketch because I was at University of California, Berkeley and they had these music practice rooms, which was actually one of my favorite places, maybe in the world in a weird way.

 

It's the music buildings in the middle of campus, which was convenient because whichever side of campus you were, you might cross past near the music building.

 

I discovered that there were these music practice rooms you could use even if you weren't doing a music degree.

 

And you go downstairs and then you're basically in this, you know, it could equally be a prison, honestly, like a corridor, like a square of corridor and all these little rooms.

 

And each little room has a tiny little window, which most people have put paper over.

 

So you can't see it just like a little cell.

 

And all they have is like, you know, a music stand and most of them have a little upright piano.

 

And you go sit in one of those rooms and it's like you just shut out the entire rest of the world and you can just play whatever you want, as loud as you want.

 

And it was just a beautiful thing.

 

And then I remember there's just one time I just forgot to take my music on the way to the music practice rooms.

 

And I was like, well, what am I going to do?

 

I play the ones I remember for a bit.

 

And then I was like, what am I going to do?

 

And so I started making my own stuff.

 

And that was it, so simple.

 

Rob Bell:

I find that quite amazing that you hadn't thought to just play what wasn't in front of you before that.

 

Because when I sit down, I just hit chords and I don't like reading music, I don't enjoy it.

 

So I would rather either learn it or just bang any old bit down and see what happens.

 

Franc Cinelli:

I feel that like a lot to do with composing, a lot to do with creativity generally, it doesn't just have to be making music, is how we're conditioned in the sense that when we're little, we play and we make up stuff and you don't hesitate, you know, putting your Legos together and making little stories, right?

 

Everyone can relate to that.

 

You make believe with your friends and that's completely normal.

 

Just like when children are really, really young, they're quite good at art, just naturally.

 

And then when you get older, then like, you don't, you have to stop playing because then you have to work.

 

And then all of a sudden, like your imagination isn't just isn't pushed so much.

 

And it's just not because anyone's doing anything wrong, but just because that's just kind of part of growing up that you stop playing make believe.

 

Rob Bell:

There are rules.

 

Franc Cinelli:

There are rules.

 

And I think all composing music is really still playing make believe.

 

You're just, you're allowing just to play to, for your creativity to kind of have an outlet.

 

And then like anything, if you do it every day or you do it often enough, you're not gonna be so kind of scared about it and you're gonna be, it's not gonna be that blank page isn't gonna be so daunting.

 

And it's gonna get to a point where that blank page is actually quite exciting.

 

How am I gonna feel it today?

 

So I feel it's just about conditioning.

 

I strongly believe that no one is more creative than someone else.

 

I think just someone has just been conditioned in a certain way.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Actually, I really wanna ask, Frankie, you mentioned that you don't really, you didn't, you couldn't read music.

 

When you create now, do you create in music on paper or do you just start playing and recording and into computer or piano or that sort of thing?

 

Franc Cinelli:

I can't read music and anytime I've tried to learn, it just doesn't happen.

 

At some point, I do want to do it, but I do notate what I write in a way that only really makes sense to me.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Amazing.

 

Franc Cinelli:

But I do keep a record of it.

 

I do try and keep a record of it, not just in the fact that it's recorded.

 

Tom Pellereau:

So you have your own way of writing it.

 

So people listening who are sort of thinking, oh, well, I can't possibly create music because I can't write it.

 

I don't know the difference between a quaver and a semi-quaver and all, you know, AG.

 

Yeah, you're like, well, no, that's really cool.

 

That's really, really cool.

 

It doesn't surprise me at all, but I think it might surprise a lot of our listeners to hear what.

 

Sure.

 

And you've created some amazing, amazing pieces.

 

So therefore anyone can do it.

 

It's an ear, it's a feeling, it's an emotion to you, it feels very much like.

 

Franc Cinelli:

100%, 100% it's an emotion.

 

And if anything, technology these days can help with that.

 

Although technology can be a little bit dangerous because you might think you're rising, but actually you're not really doing anything.

 

The technology is doing it all for you, but you certainly don't have to know music theory.

 

You don't have to read and write music to be able to compose anything on any instrument.

 

I wanted to answer the question that Robbie asked you just now, because I think it's really important.

 

He asked you, does problem solving aspect of what you do, if that is the same in music?

 

I don't think it is.

 

I think that what music, the goal of music is to open the conversation, whether that be a personal conversation within yourself to help you move forward, to help you reflect.

 

I think that's, in my view, the goal of music.

 

Rob Bell:

That's interesting, Frankie.

 

I think that's a pretty solid answer, actually.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And from my point of view, designing products, we are incredibly constrained.

 

And I really like that.

 

I really like the fact that we are constrained very much on, yeah, completely.

 

And actually, the projects where I've most struggled is where we have complete freedom, like where we have all the budget you can want, all the scope of all the things you can create with new, you can open new tools, you can do this.

 

Whereas today, I was trying to solve a problem and it was like, we're just incredibly constrained on that problem.

 

And I was like, I know the fact that we're finding this difficult to solve clearly means we are solving the wrong problem or we're thinking about it in the wrong way.

 

There must be, there must be another simpler way that someone solved this problem for us already.

 

And, learn behold, we actually found it and we think, it turns out, I think that we could use a part of a kitchen utensil that's been ubiquitous for like 50 years to solve this problem.

 

Rather than, because we thought we were going to stage we were going to have to open a new mold and then we can design it in any way we wanted it to be.

 

And it's just an accessory, it's not an important part.

 

And it's like, no, that's too much.

 

We'd like to constrain ourselves that there's a simpler solution and we sort of found it.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, this is lovely.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Mine is so different to the creativity that.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, yeah, and I love the fact you're talking about boundaries there.

 

Cause one of the questions I wanted to ask everybody was about how do you know when it's finished, right?

 

When do you take it to market?

 

When do you publish it?

 

When do you release your work?

 

And Tommy, I'm sure, especially when there are, you know, if you've got unlimited budget and unlimited time, you know, in that scenario, it's like, I could just keep going with this.

 

I can make it better.

 

I could keep developing and researching materials and finishes and ergonomics.

 

And same from the music perspective as well.

 

When do you go, that's it.

 

That is maybe not perfect.

 

That's good enough.

 

That's done.

 

I need to move on.

 

How does that work in both worlds of creation and creativity?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Having just watched Frankie's video on YouTube, you sort of say that you don't feel it's ever finished.

 

It's not, it's a work and it continues and you've become comfortable with that feeling that it's never finished.

 

Is that right?

 

Franc Cinelli:

Most definitely.

 

And that's exactly what I was gonna say.

 

It gets to a point where you think, okay, this can leave the nest, but that doesn't mean that it's necessarily finished and it's okay to keep working on it.

 

But at some point you also have to put your kind of grown up hat on and go, okay, we now need to move on to the next stage because otherwise you can't work on a piece of music endlessly because I mean, personally, I never have unlimited time or budget.

 

So there's always a compromise in creating something.

 

There's always a compromise because if you had more time, if you had more budget, if you had less other things that you were waiting to do, maybe you'd address it differently.

 

So I completely agree with the constraints.

 

If you, the narrower the goalposts, the more creative you have to be, you know?

 

And that can be definitely an exciting situation.

 

Rob Bell:

The end goal, but for both, the things we're talking about here, design of product and creation of music, the end goal is to get it out, right?

 

To get it heard, to get it seen, to get it bought off the shelves.

 

Or is it?

 

Or is it sometimes just for you?

 

Franc Cinelli:

It's definitely, for me, for music, I have this thing which I always say to other artists as well.

 

Maybe it's a bit harsh, but I'll maybe say it also to persuade people to just roll up the sleeves and get on with it is that until you share it, it's not art, it's just something that lives on your computer, and it doesn't even matter.

 

I really feel that.

 

With art, any kind of art, it's about the human story, the human connection, the human relationship, so you have to share it with someone.

 

It can be one person.

 

It could be that no one even hears it, but you put it up somewhere, and I think then it becomes a little piece of art.

 

I really think that.

 

Jono Hey:

Actually, it's really interesting you say about sharing, Frankie, because this is just a small sketch from 10 years ago, but we're only talking about it because I put it up on the web and carried on making sketches.

 

Otherwise, it's a small thing in my notebook.

 

And I've got hundreds, I'm sure you've got thousands, but I've got hundreds of little musical sketches.

 

And actually, I haven't found a great way to publish those things.

 

They don't quite feel finished, and I should probably finish more of them.

 

But maybe some of them are good enough to share already, but I don't have as easy way of putting them out somehow.

 

You can't put a 40-second thing with some mistakes out on Spotify or something, you know.

 

Nobody does that.

 

Franc Cinelli:

And maybe that's a good thing.

 

I don't know.

 

But in the sense of you've shared some of your fantastic music and put it up there on Spotify.

 

How did it feel when you shared it?

 

Did it make the work feel different to you in your eyes?

 

Jono Hey:

I think I get the same feeling I do with sharing anything in some respect in the sense that once you've put it out there and you have your name on it, you're owning it, your responsibility for it reflects on you.

 

But also you can feel proud about it.

 

But also you don't know, and I think both Sketchplanations, you don't know how it's going to be received and something you put out many years later, maybe somebody will send you a little note and say that song really changed me and I really appreciated that song and you didn't know that was going to happen before that.

 

Right.

 

And so I think that once you put things out there, they can affect people in all sorts of different ways that you don't expect.

 

And that's the magic of sharing, whether it's music or writing or sketching or whatever.

 

Franc Cinelli:

100%.

 

That's 100%.

 

That's the most magical thing of making things and sharing them with people.

 

When someone says something like that, it is absolutely a magical moment.

 

Rob Bell:

So here's an absolute classic question that most musicians probably get asked at some point in their careers.

 

I'm going to ask it from a much more general perspective of creating.

 

Where do we get inspiration from when we sit down to try and create?

 

Tommy, if you were to sit down and go, right, there's a new product that I'd like to bring to market.

 

There's this problem or there's this gap that I think I could come up with a solution for.

 

Do you have a means of finding inspiration?

 

Or do things come to you in the night?

 

Tom Pellereau:

The most difficult thing I've found is finding a problem that's worth solving.

 

That's the most difficult part, because often solving a problem is not as difficult as finding a problem that people actually want solved, weirdly.

 

So finding the problem is sometimes quite serendipitous.

 

Talking to people, talking to as many different experts in certain fields, and then a lot of research.

 

In terms of then solving it, often it's a kind of, okay, well, what has solved something happening similar, and then it's sort of getting loads of stuff, and I'm quite sort of making as well.

 

So it's a lot of buying of similar things and taking them apart and putting them back together again, which probably feels like it's going to be very, very different to the answer that...

 

Because one of the things I think about with music is in terms of how can anyone compose stuff when there's so much music?

 

As soon as I started composing, I just like accidentally put a little, you know, I'd start humming the Beatles or a bit of it or a bit of that, you know, it's like how...

 

It must be so difficult to create something completely unique and I'm always amazed by new songs that I hear and be like, wow, that is, that's completely new.

 

How, how, Frankie, how do you do that?

 

How do you find something that's so unique?

 

I immediately get trapped into starting to hum something that I've heard before.

 

Franc Cinelli:

I think that's a really interesting question and I think that just, you know, puts like a spotlight on the amazing thing of music, of how personal it is.

 

It's just a really, really unique thing.

 

I mean, I could play so many songs that are written on the guitar are written with the same chords because we take guitar, for example, so someone who isn't a trained pianist, but someone who's a guitarist and Rob, you will, you will know this.

 

You will, you know, you'll have a handful of chords.

 

Six.

 

Rob Bell:

That's all I've got.

 

One handful of chords.

 

Franc Cinelli:

Four, five, six chords.

 

That's what you'll construct music with and those four, five, six chords have been used by so many songwriters, so many bands all using the same chords.

 

Like there's this, I forget what it is, but there's a YouTube video.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, I've seen it.

 

Franc Cinelli:

Well, these guys, I think it's a C, G, A minor, F, like the four chords that the progression, I think it's like...

 

Jono Hey:

They call it the Axis of Awesome.

 

Franc Cinelli:

That's the one, that's the one.

 

But all those songs, they're using the exact same chords, so the bed is the same, but they're all completely individual.

 

I don't think you can listen to any of those songs and say, oh, that person copied that person, but they're using the same ingredients, and that's such a magical thing.

 

Jono Hey:

I mentioned about playing from the music, so I never saw that as a bad thing, right?

 

I was...

 

First of all, I was playing things that otherwise I wouldn't otherwise be able to play if the music hadn't been there.

 

And I was playing some music that I loved to hear.

 

And every time I played the music, I learned a bit about how they did this.

 

And I think every time you listen to music and every time you're playing it, you're learning about, okay, these are things, these are techniques that I might want to build some of it into my music.

 

And there's a really nice book called Steal Like An Artist by Austin Kleon.

 

I think everybody is always borrowing from other places.

 

Actually, I wasn't sure who I'm going to talk about this, but I bought a quote, which I think is quite relevant.

 

It was from this lovely book called The Listening Book, and it talks about the truth is the line between what is uniquely yours and what's given to you by your culture is invisible to you.

 

Don't worry about it.

 

Your village is inside you.

 

Your work is to go inside and bring out the sounds you like to hear.

 

Franc Cinelli:

Amazing.

 

That's amazing.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

 

Because to me, because we're borrowing from everywhere all the time.

 

And we don't know what the unique bit is that we're adding, but you've got to do the work to bring it out.

 

I always remember, actually, I watched Hans Zimmer did a masterclass and I really enjoyed his and Danny Elfman's.

 

Hans Zimmer said something, because when you're coming to a new film score, evidently, your job is to come up with something unique.

 

And he's done that so many times, it's so impressive.

 

And he said, one of the things he said, like, if you sit at the piano, like, sit on your hands.

 

Yes, sit on your hands until you until until you come out.

 

Franc Cinelli:

I'm so glad you know that.

 

I'm so glad you know that.

 

That's my favorite quote about music learning ever.

 

I'm so glad that you know that it's my favorite thing in the world.

 

Jono Hey:

I mean, I took from it.

 

Yours may be different.

 

But you know, if you put your start your hands on the keyboard, you'll end up doing what you do all the time.

 

And so he's like, right, force yourself to start somewhere new.

 

I think, yeah, it's really fascinating.

 

Rob Bell:

That is brilliant.

 

Because, I mean, I was going to ask about discipline and discipline within creativity and writing music, composing music, you know, can you force yourself to be creative?

 

Can you sit down and go, right, this is the time I've allocated to do this.

 

And, Frankie, it might be a commission for you.

 

So it's like a job.

 

You know, this is the time I've set aside in the week to do this.

 

Can you sit down and go, right, I've had breakfast, let's get on with this.

 

I need to be creative.

 

Go.

 

Franc Cinelli:

You definitely could do something like that.

 

I don't know how great or important the work might be, but you can definitely, you can definitely work at it.

 

So I'm working on a documentary now, which is a very, it's a great, great work.

 

And I've seen the kind of finished cut and it's really beautiful made, beautifully made.

 

So that makes me a little bit, I guess, kind of intimidated, not intimidated, but like, you know, I want to do something great.

 

I want to do something great.

 

You don't, I haven't got press here for great button on my studio.

 

So, so, you know, where do you start with that?

 

Where do you start when I have something, when I feel already the pressure that I'm not just like expressing myself, I need to make something that is great.

 

I wrote two pieces, just kind of, how can you say on spec?

 

Like to you, is this the kind of thing we're going for?

 

And they really liked it.

 

So now I have to make, you know, 12 pieces like that and then edit them to picture.

 

And I think it's like you don't force the, you know, fingers on the piano, but you do not force, but you can be disciplined in thinking about it and looking for inspiration in working through it within yourself before the hands go on the instrument.

 

That's very, very, before the hands go on the instrument, I try to be very purposeful.

 

Like I have, it might be a little bit vague, but in my picture I have, in my head, I have some kind of picture of where I'm going.

 

And without that, I wouldn't stop because you can just go, you know, da da da da, you know, it's not, and it's not zero.

 

That doesn't count.

 

Jono Hey:

One of the favourite quotes I live by is, is from Madeleine Longley, who's an author, and she says, inspiration usually comes during work rather than before it.

 

Franc Cinelli:

Right.

 

Jono Hey:

And I think that's like that discipline is where you say, like, can you turn on creativity?

 

No, but you're probably much more likely to be creative if you're sat working at it.

 

And that's, that's true for me.

 

Franc Cinelli:

And also going back to what you were saying about how you practice your pieces, that can be a great way to, to induce creativity, induce the path when you're, when you're, you're playing something that you enjoy, that you're just reading from, you know, maybe your fingers might slip and you go somewhere else and that might trigger some, some, some musical thoughts.

 

Rob Bell:

I mean, when, when I write the intros for these podcasts, I sit down because I've done, I don't know how many now, 26 and I think, God, where am I going to go with this, this time?

 

So do we.

 

Yeah.

 

And I'll just let, well, the first thing that comes into my mind, I'll just take that and I'll start writing on it and then I'll try and expand it somewhere and if it doesn't go anywhere, fine.

 

And I'll just try and think of something else and typically I'll just look around me, I just look around me in my office here and I'll try and take some kind of inspiration from that and then I might go back to that first idea and go, actually, no, there was something a bit more in there.

 

Maybe I can try and find a way.

 

And as you said, Jono, with that quote, you find the inspiration in doing the work absolutely rather than sitting there trying to think about it before you come to the laptop or to the keyboard or to the CAD station, Tommy, whatever it might be.

 

Franc Cinelli:

But sorry to interject, but Rob, would you say that now on your 26th episode, you feel a little bit more comfortable in that process than you were in the first couple of episodes?

 

Rob Bell:

Well, first couple of episodes, you know, the world was my oyster.

 

There was, you know, as Tommy was saying, infinite possibilities.

 

And then in the middle, you're like, oh, I think I've done everything now.

 

But you still keep finding a way.

 

So what I do have now that I can call on is a confidence that I will find something, something will come.

 

And it might not be great.

 

It might not even be good, but I'm going to do it anyway.

 

Jono Hey:

It's ready to leave the nest.

 

Rob Bell:

I'm going to share it as well.

 

Ready to leave the nest.

 

Franc Cinelli:

The point that I at least was hoping to make was that it's practice helps a lot.

 

Rob Bell:

Absolutely, Franky.

 

Absolutely.

 

And so, well, it is creativity, but you know, you can you can practice being creative and Tommy, I'm sure you have this as well.

 

I hope you feel this with I don't know how many inventions you've created.

 

Do you keep track of that at all?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, yeah, it depends on the different levels of them.

 

And so in some respects, back to that point about, you know, is it finished?

 

Is it done?

 

Is it that?

 

Like with with my stuff, we have to finish on a certain day in order to, you know, we are in the middle of Christmas at the moment, and that's a big period for us.

 

So we have to launch new things, ideally in September, October, which means we have to basically lock it all down in kind of May, June.

 

And then we go, how many thousands of these are we making?

 

And that's really pressurized because it's like one, two, three, four.

 

Sometimes we make like a hundred thousand or something.

 

And that's like, are we really sure that that bit is as perfect as it could be?

 

And certainly having done this now for 15, almost 20 years, I'm becoming more and more comfortable with that, that you've just got to lock it down.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, great.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And yes, it probably isn't, you know, yes, if you had another week, you probably could improve it a bit, but no, we've got to stop here.

 

But that you probably will get another chance for in six months' time, you'll have to improve it slightly.

 

And in six months' time, we'll have to try and improve it even more.

 

And so it's not a completely, but at the same time, if you don't finish now and get it shipped, because there's a great quote, I think it's Steve Jobs, isn't it?

 

And Jono, you used to have Ship It Day at work, I don't know if you still do.

 

When you stay up all night just making sure it's all finished so that you can then that's done and you start.

 

Because if you don't ship it, you'll never be able to improve it down the line because it will never actually happen.

 

Franc Cinelli:

Right.

 

Yes.

 

So when a product, what's the word, goes to market, then you can still alter it down the line?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yes, but it's also potentially a bit late.

 

You can kind of improve it for the second generation.

 

And you can maybe improve some of it in...

 

If you discover something has gone wrong, which has happened once, twice, then you have to be really quick thinking.

 

And those are really scary moments when there's something that's happened that you had no idea would happen and you're starting to get significant levels of return.

 

And those are the things that occasionally keep me up at night.

 

We had a situation with the second batch of nail files that came through.

 

So this is at the very beginning of my kind of apprentice, you know, new business with Lord Sugar.

 

They came through the Suez Canal in the summer for the first time and some of the foam started peeling off.

 

And it was just so hot because it was so hot.

 

Like in those containers, they got to like 50 degrees and it started.

 

And so we received all these and 30,000 and 5,000 of the stuff had started peeling off.

 

And we had no idea that was going to happen.

 

And then we had to sort of reassemble them and then find a glue that's suitable, obviously, for the next shipment.

 

So sometimes you are forced to improve things.

 

Rob Bell:

Forced creativity.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Forced creativity very, very quickly.

 

And those are the terrifying times, but also when you're kind of quite amazed by your ability to be creative under pressure.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Don't mind the pressure as a catalyst for creativity at all.

 

Don't mind it.

 

Jono Hey:

But on the creativity part, I should share something which came to me again like this sort of wow moment, which is a strange moment, which was, you mentioned, Frankie, all about talking about emotion.

 

And so my wow moment was like follow the emotion.

 

And the funny thing was, I was thinking about like, I don't know, I had like some chord sequence or something.

 

And I was, you know, you're wondering and you're on this chord and you're like, where does it go to next?

 

And if you'd have asked me, I had no idea where it was going to next, you know, we're going to ask some D, should it go to A, F sharp minor, like I couldn't have told you.

 

And then I suddenly realized that I did know, all I had to do was I had to follow what my emotion said should come next.

 

And my job was, it was bizarre, it was my job was just finding the notes to express what my, I already knew needed to be the next note, which was just such a curious thing.

 

I was like, oh, wow, I do know, because I just, I just, I just feel what should come next in the music.

 

And my job is literally finding the notes to express that.

 

And just fascinating insight for me all of a sudden one time.

 

Franc Cinelli:

That's amazing.

 

Yeah, for anyone possibly considering the creative path, I think it's also really important to stay on track with the fact that not everything you make is going to translate that emotion that you're after.

 

You're not going to get it every time.

 

It's impossible.

 

So it's not like the pressures of having a product and that product needs to work.

 

I think a piece of music can often not work.

 

And I think that's okay.

 

That's part of the process.

 

Rob Bell:

What I really want to ask is some real quite practical question about writing music and keeping hold of a musical idea that you've had.

 

Let's say you want to write a piece.

 

How do you keep track?

 

How do you keep a record of a musical idea as you work on it over time?

 

So you're building a piece of music together, but it's late and you need to go to bed and sleep.

 

How do you make sure that when you get up in the morning, you know where you were with it and you can get back into that?

 

Or can you?

 

And I think it's the same with ideas as well, Tom.

 

I certainly have it.

 

I'm building a kitchen at the moment and there's a lot of real fiddly bits of carpentry.

 

How am I going to make that fit?

 

And you sit and work it all out and then you have to go and, I don't know, go and do something else for the rest of the day.

 

You don't come back to it to the next day.

 

And I've forgotten it or it's gone because I didn't record it in any particular way.

 

So I have to figure out how I'm going to make that work again.

 

How do you record that?

 

How do you make, I mean, music, you could just record it literally, I guess.

 

But I think it's more to it than just that.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I'm fascinated to know what Franc is going to say to this.

 

Franc Cinelli:

I think you can just record it.

 

And I think if...

 

Rob Bell:

Great, thanks very much.

 

Franc Cinelli:

If I'm just kind of in the middle of somewhere, or I'll record.

 

By what?

 

Rob Bell:

Just singing into the phone?

 

Franc Cinelli:

Singing into the phone, playing into the phone.

 

But I've also, I feel, done enough musical creations to know that when that moment of real kind of inspiration is very kind and merciful and shines its light on me, I don't take it for granted.

 

So when it's there, it's there, and everything else just needs to get lost for a while.

 

Because I don't, sometimes, sometimes something will come and it feels so good.

 

And in the past, so many times, I go, that's in the bag.

 

I'll work on that tomorrow.

 

And then tomorrow, it just doesn't exist.

 

Not because I don't necessarily remember it, or I can't play it, or I didn't note it down.

 

But because it's just not there.

 

Whatever it was, it's just not there anymore.

 

And I've lost it.

 

And it's gone.

 

It's gone.

 

And it's a thing.

 

You know, Keith Richards says that songwriters have this TV aerial on their head, and it allows them to kind of pick up these song frequencies when they get broadcast.

 

But they don't always get broadcast.

 

So your aerial always has to be up.

 

And I completely agree with that.

 

I completely identify.

 

So when it comes, it's like it's here.

 

Now, I'm in a perhaps a situation where maybe not a lot of people are at, in which I'm looking for that moment, as it were, all the time.

 

That's what I'm constantly on the looking for.

 

When it comes, it's here and I'm ready for it.

 

Rob Bell:

And it's flowing, right?

 

It's kind of not forced.

 

Franc Cinelli:

But it doesn't happen always.

 

It doesn't happen every day, you know, but you've got...

 

I'm quoting all my favorites now, but Noel Gallagher calls it going fishing.

 

You've got to turn up.

 

It's really...

 

You've got to turn up.

 

And you might get lucky, and if you're lucky, then you have to be prepared.

 

That's all it is.

 

Rob Bell:

The very best example I can share with you about this is when I was 17, playing rugby for my school, and I'm by no means a very proficient rugby player, but I could kick the ball a little bit, but drop kicks were not my specialty whatsoever.

 

For some reason, this one match, I could drop kick, and I put four drop goals over.

 

And I have no idea how.

 

I didn't have to think about it.

 

I just got the ball, and it went, and it was just flowing from me.

 

Next game, I tried it, scuffed it, spooned it, dribbled it, you know, it wasn't happening.

 

I was back to normal.

 

But for that game, I didn't want that game to finish.

 

I wanted that to just keep going and to just keep having this flow.

 

It was brilliant.

 

Franc Cinelli:

Amazing.

 

Jono Hey:

Well, I find it quite different.

 

Maybe you just have to be hot with the recorder.

 

But I struggle with music and music notation.

 

It's not as easy as being able to like sketch something out or write out some words because the moment you did it, it's gone.

 

And so what happened to me quite a lot is I'll be playing something and I play something and I think it sounds great and I'm like, oh, brilliant, I should record that.

 

And literally, I'm trying to get back to that little thing that I played, which sounded great.

 

Rob Bell:

Just a minute ago.

 

Jono Hey:

Just a minute ago sometimes.

 

And I just can't do it.

 

I'm just playing, I'm improvising and something sounds great.

 

And I'm like, it's gone.

 

And I've got like the rough thing, but I wasn't recording it.

 

And I think, like you said, I will never, I will never play that again.

 

I'll never see that beautiful combination never again.

 

Shed a tear.

 

It's heartbreaking.

 

Rob Bell:

It's heartbreaking.

 

Jono Hey:

And it's funny because if you're writing or if you're drawing, you can put it down and you can look at it and then you can work on it.

 

You can, you know, if you're an architect and you draw the outline of a building and then the building, the line's not quite right.

 

You go over it a bit.

 

You move it to one side and it's so much harder to do that, I think, with music, unless you can get it down easily and start tweaking it.

 

But often I find the process of getting it down is too hard and you lose it or I lose it.

 

Rob Bell:

Is the lesson there to just record all the time?

 

Franc Cinelli:

I think so, if that's where the situation...

 

I found myself in a slightly different place, is that I get frustrated with having a lot of kind of loose bits that aren't quite right in my computer, so when I have an idea I'll just work on it until I'm ready to record it.

 

But I completely understand what you're saying.

 

I think a lot of people are in that place, and I think that the easiest way is to just hit record and then just forget that you've hit record.

 

Easier said, I know, easier said, but that's really the way, because it's also when the record light is on, something happens, just something happens that makes it different.

 

Jono Hey:

A game changer for me was in the digital music software, a lot of them now have a feature where they're playing and they are always recording in the background, and you can press a button afterwards, and it will recover the notes that you played.

 

But you haven't sat down and gone, right, I'm going to record this thing now right and proper, nicely, it's just always recording, and if you play something nice, then it recovers it.

 

But it was recording, it just didn't tell you.

 

It makes a difference.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, that's nice.

 

Tom Pellereau:

So on this note, I used to write down everything, I've got all these little notebooks, I used to, and then it creates you-

 

Rob Bell:

Always notebook and pen in your hands.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And Jono, when we went to, do you remember, did we ever work with Dimitri together?

 

I can't remember, it creates that, he was one of the most creative people I've ever worked with and he used to see me noting down stuff the whole time.

 

And he was about 10 years older.

 

And he said to me, Tom, just, you know, just let it go.

 

If it's good enough, if the idea is that good, it'll come back.

 

Don't worry.

 

And if you forget it and it doesn't come back, it probably wasn't good enough.

 

So just be fine with that.

 

Rob Bell:

Did that resonate with you?

 

Are you fine with that?

 

Tom Pellereau:

I thought he was nuts.

 

And it took me years to kind of understand what he meant.

 

And now I probably am much more about that.

 

Rob Bell:

And Tommy, am I right in saying that you weren't allowed to have a notepad and pen during The Apprentice?

 

Is that right?

 

Tom Pellereau:

It was absolutely right.

 

You weren't allowed a notebook or pen at all.

 

And when I...

 

Rob Bell:

You must have felt all at sea.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Well, and I didn't realise it for a while.

 

My first boardroom that I was in, I had my notebook and pen in my pocket and they didn't realise that and I pulled it out.

 

So in the very first boardroom and then everyone was like looking around going, he's got a notebook, he's got a notebook, you've got to get the notebook.

 

Rob Bell:

Bring him down, bring him down.

 

Tom Pellereau:

They confiscated my notebooks and my pens and they were like, no, you're not allowed to...

 

So during the task, I'd kind of collect them and I'd have them in...

 

I'd have them sort of secretly stashed so that I could write stuff down later.

 

And then you'd kind of go to the bathroom and you'd write little notes.

 

Because for me, I actually find, I think better with a pen in my hand, which is quite...

 

And I kind of need paper to doodle.

 

But I can remember ideas and that sort of thing.

 

I can't personally remember music or notes or tunes or ditties or chords in probably a different way.

 

Like, I wonder if you almost can see music?

 

Franc Cinelli:

Often, yes.

 

It's a very visual thing, yes.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, so it's a very visual thing for me, for you.

 

Music is not a visual thing for me.

 

I can't see it.

 

I can only listen to it and enjoy it.

 

Franc Cinelli:

But completely, for me, music is 100% shapes and colours.

 

Rob Bell:

But I guess it's always moving, isn't it, as well?

 

So hard to draw, maybe.

 

Franc Cinelli:

But I think, I'm presuming.

 

Yes, it is.

 

But it has a shape.

 

It has a visual from start to finish.

 

So it starts here, it goes here, it goes smaller.

 

And it has different colours.

 

And I could, anything I've written, I could visualise that whole path.

 

Jono Hey:

Wow.

 

Franc Cinelli:

Definitely.

 

I can't read or write music.

 

So I have to have it visual in some way or another.

 

Jono Hey:

I think that we're still in the early days of what's going to happen with music going digital.

 

I just think it's so fascinating.

 

And even if I think of when we were at college, we used to go to gigs and you needed a band to be there and to be making the music.

 

And now you can, first of all, you can make music in a non-synchronous way, right?

 

Like Franc, you do this all the time, right?

 

Recording all the different parts.

 

And you can take your time and I can work on this bit and I can work on that bit, as opposed to, say, 50 years ago, you had to, if you wanted to play the music, you had to do it all there, there and then in one go.

 

And now you can work on it like you can like a novel.

 

And also, I think the fact that you don't need a band, let's say, as an, like an, all the introverts who never play in a band or get up on stage, they can now take their time over music and they can achieve something fabulous.

 

I don't have to coordinate five other people and get them all to buy into that.

 

Everybody, everybody on the planet who's access to like a computer can start making music.

 

And I think I can't, I can't actually think of anything quite like that.

 

And I think it's together with the ways that we listen to music now that, you know, I don't have to buy a CD from the record store or whatever.

 

It doesn't have to be big.

 

It can just be out on a streaming service and there's this long tail that anybody can put anything out there.

 

I just think it's massively opened it up to everybody.

 

And we're probably still at the start of that.

 

Everybody can make the music that they like.

 

Franc Cinelli:

I totally agree.

 

Rob Bell:

Any other business on composing music?

 

Franc Cinelli:

Just that everyone should have a go at it because everyone can find some enjoyment from it.

 

Composing music doesn't have to be that you release music.

 

It's like doing sports.

 

Like I run marathons, but I run marathons probably three times slower than you do, Rob.

 

But I still do it and it helps me in my life very, very much.

 

And if you do music, it's not as painful as running a marathon.

 

So that's why you should do it.

 

Rob Bell:

Guys, I'm going to round up our conversation here now.

 

We could talk about this stuff for ages and ages and ages.

 

There's so much and I knew there would be.

 

And that's the joy of this.

 

Best way you can keep up to date with all Frankie's work through social media channels, Instagram account, Frankie, at Franc Cinelli.

 

Franc Cinelli:

All of it.

 

I'm on all of them.

 

I love it.

 

It takes all of my time.

 

It's really gives me so much enjoyment.

 

Rob Bell:

Or your website, frankcinelli.com.

 

Franc Cinelli:

Yes.

 

Rob Bell:

Franc with a C.

 

Frankie, listen, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast this week, mate.

 

And for your continued support of the podcast through your wonderful tracks.

 

The tracks is Driver, The Impossible Breaks Free, I mean, my personal favourite, Julius Play His Winning Ace.

 

There is a superb horn section in that.

 

Franc Cinelli:

Can we just, can we mention something about the horn section, please?

 

Because I think maybe your listeners would be very happy to know.

 

Maybe you'd like to say something about the horn section.

 

Rob Bell:

I think it's probably fairly obvious by the smugness in my voice that I play on that little horn section at the end.

 

Franc Cinelli:

Yes.

 

Yes.

 

So Rob plays on my album, I Have Not Yet Begun To Fight, which actually is up on my wall.

 

Shall I go?

 

I'll go on then.

 

I have it here.

 

So I have some vinyls, this is the vinyl that we have here, Rob was in the credits, and you play on the song Fall Into Heaven and you play on Julius Play His Winning Ace and a sterling job.

 

And you played live with us once at the 100 Club on Oxford Street when we played and you played with us and that was really a magical, magical moment.

 

Rob Bell:

Magical for you, absolutely terrifying for me.

 

I had never performed live on the cornet before and you could do a little warm up in your changing room before you come on stage, but then I didn't play for the first three songs because I only come on these little bits.

 

And when you're not a good cornet player, like absolute novice, and you haven't actually blown it for at least 20 minutes now, but the first time you are going to blow it is going to be crucial because people are going to be listening.

 

Absolutely terrifying.

 

Franc Cinelli:

It was amazing.

 

Rob Bell:

But great fun.

 

So pleased I did it.

 

Franc Cinelli:

Absolutely.

 

Rob Bell:

To all our listeners, I would urge you to check out all of Frankie's music on Spotify, on Apple or however you access your music.

 

I mean, I've got a bunch of Frankie CDs kicking about and vinyl as well as Frankie was talking to us about there.

 

As I mentioned, keep up to date with all of his work on Instagram or through his website, frankcinelli.com.

 

Thank you once again, Frankie.

 

Yeah, it's lovely having you on board.

 

Thank you, mate.

 

Franc Cinelli:

Thank you guys.

 

Absolute pleasure.

 

Thank you very, very much.

 

I love the podcast.

 

It's a real privilege to be a part of it.

 

Thank you very much.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Thank you.

 

Rob Bell:

Thank you, Jono.

 

And thank you, Tommy, once again.

 

And thank you all for listening.

 

We do love doing this podcast and we'd love to know your thoughts on this week's topic.

 

In addition to all Frank's music, you can find all our previous episodes up on Spotify or Apple or wherever as well.

 

We'll be going through last week's correspondence in just a minute.

 

And if you do want to get in touch with us, the best way is to email hello at sketchplanations.com.

 

Otherwise, that's it for now.

 

There are no coders, no repeat signs, no drop to your knees key change moments and no on-cores.

 

For now, go well and stay well.

 

Goodbye.

 

Goodbye.

 

Right, I'm back and it's just me, the boys have had to dash off.

 

But because we've done, I seem to be saying this all the time, because our episode this week is a little longer than usual.

 

I'm going to try and keep our little run through your correspondence quick and short, which is really lovely actually because we've had loads and loads of comments and messages about our episode on beaches and fun at the beach.

 

And it was just really lovely.

 

Do you know, it was really lovely recording that episode and it was lovely putting it together and now it's just fantastic knowing that everything that we talked about in that episode resonates so strongly with so many of you out there listening.

 

So thank you very much for anybody who fed back on the episode.

 

On email we had a message from Simon saying, brilliant episode chaps and one close to my heart.

 

We love the beach too and our summer holes abroad are mostly a search for the best beaches and best gelatos wherever we go.

 

With or without kit, drippy sandcastles, rock pooling, water sports, ball games, it's all so good.

 

Simon goes on to say, it made me have a little look back at some old photos and Simon's included a photo with him and his family on the beach from a good few years ago I think that was.

 

Thank you Simon, that's lovely that you could enjoy our reminiscing and enjoyment of beaches as well.

 

Andy Myatt on Twitter says, the feel of sand between your toes is always a winner.

 

Couldn't agree more with you Andy.

 

Barbara Wills on Instagram, I love the beach and the fresh sea air.

 

Alison Allen on Instagram, I love beaches, love love.

 

I don't stay too long though because of getting burnt, very wise.

 

And alongside the episode on beaches, I mentioned, talked about my story of being up on a beach up in the northeast last year doing some filming when a guy found something in the sand and the bomb squad came along to deal with it.

 

So we've had a number of messages about that because I reposted a photo that I put up on Twitter at the time.

 

I had actually loads and loads of messages again on that one, people basically telling me what it is.

 

So what have we got here?

 

Mountain Woods Man on Instagram says, definitely a filter, either oil or diesel.

 

Okan says, very interesting.

 

Tim Taylor says, oil filter.

 

Riv Guy looks like an oil filter or a fuel filter.

 

London Mud Club International say, I would say oil filter.

 

Hydraulic oil filter looks more like an oil filter.

 

Oh, here's one from Fresh Air Wild Hair.

 

No, it's a giant cotton reel.

 

Jono Hey:

I'm not sure about that.

 

Rob Bell:

But one of my favorites in there was from Simon on Instagram, who says, nice photo bomb.

 

And then he apologizes for such a bad dad joke.

 

But we love bad dad jokes on Sketchplanations podcast.

 

Looks like an oil filter, oil air separator, truck oil filter.

 

Basically, it's an oil filter.

 

It's definitely not a bomb.

 

I'm glad I can clarify that for you.

 

And thank you to everybody who clarified that for me.

 

Yeah, once you look at it, it is pretty obvious.

 

But if you did come across that Buried in the Sand, and all you saw was the kind of spherical, not spherical, the cylindrical nature of it, it's all rusted away.

 

Brilliant, yes.

 

Do keep your messages coming in and your feedback.

 

We absolutely love getting it.

 

Hopefully we'll have a similar reaction to this episode.

 

Massive thanks again to Frankie, absolute superstar.

 

I love talking to that guy.

 

A, he's got the most amazing voice.

 

But B, do check out his music, it's brilliant.

 

And to really get stuck into the nitty gritty of what makes him tick and how he works was fascinating for me.

 

Lovely, I'll leave it there.

 

Thanks again for listening and see you next time.

 

All music on this podcast series is provided by the very talented Franc Cinelli.

 

And you can find many more tracks at franccinelli.com.