5 Ways to Wellbeing

Nancy Hey:

I got really frustrated with working in policymaking and in workplaces where I was so detached from people's real lives and the experience of it.

And I got quite cross.

So I tried to work out how you could actually fix it.

And that's what took me to the well-being thing.

 

Jono Hey:

What's so nice about, I think, about the five ways to well-being is it's just, it's only five and you can remember them and you can see them.

They're very visual and very tangible.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Well, I thought we all bought thousands of pounds worth of equipment and sports gear and tops and all that sort of stuff during the pandemic that we all have no excuse not to do exercise now.

 

Nancy Hey:

I think for some people, they did a lot of exercise, but if you didn't do that, it didn't make a big difference.

And I think that will be a long tail.

 

Rob Bell:

Our general well-being, what is it and how do we improve it?

We hear from an expert, the five key ways.

 

Hello and welcome to Sketchplanations, The Podcast.

 

It was Quintus Horatius Flaccus, AKA Horace, the leading Roman lyric poet during the time of Augustus, who said, a picture is a poem without words.

 

It was Charles Schultz, the American cartoonist and creator of Peanuts and Snoopy, who said, I never made a mistake in my life.

 

I thought I did once, but I was wrong.

 

And it was me who said all of that just now.

 

I'm Rob Bell, and this would be a very different podcast if it weren't for my two canny companions, Jono Hey and Tom Pellereau.

 

Good evening, gents.

 

How are we doing?

 

All right?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yes, thank you.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, very good.

 

Rob Bell:

Quotes there.

 

Interesting quotes from the past.

 

Have you guys got any favorite quotes or any, do you tend to use quotes in public speaking, that kind of stuff?

 

Jono Hey:

I do, yeah, all the time.

 

I feel, actually, you know what?

 

I think it's one of the easiest ways to make yourself look smart, is to borrow all the wisdom of others in their nice, pilly quotes and just share that.

 

And people think that you're smart, but you didn't, you just heard it and repeated it.

 

Rob Bell:

Do you, I'm assuming, because I know you were in love, Jono, that you do give credit to the original author of the quotes when you show off your new smartness.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, I do.

 

I mean, I did a PhD, you remember?

 

And so-

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's all about the quotes.

 

Rob Bell:

What are you saying that you are really smart?

 

Jono Hey:

I'm just trying to make sure that you get that in there.

 

No, I was just, the point is, the point is you become very rigorous about providing credit and referencing for sources.

 

 

Rob Bell:

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

 

No, but you're always, you're always so on it, always so on it on this podcast and also within your Sketchplanations as well.

 

So it was very much tongue in cheek, but you know, no harm just to remind everyone that it's actually Dr.

 

Jono Hey.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, and that's what we should be calling him.

 

Rob Bell:

He should be the doctor.

 

Tommy, do you use quotes quite a bit?

 

Tom Pellereau:

I write a lot of quotes down and then I forget them.

 

And so when you sent out this reminder, it was like brilliant, and I started reading through all these quotes again.

 

And as Jono has just said and reminded me, I should use quotes more often when speaking.

 

Rob Bell:

I use them occasionally.

 

I've been tempted to use them for the intro of the podcast on a number of occasions, but I can't believe I've had to say this.

 

In the past, I've thought, oh no, I'll come up with something different this time and I'll save quotes for when I really haven't got anything and I'm really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

 

That's not the case.

 

I've just thought, no, now's the time.

 

Now's the time.

 

Jono Hey:

I can't think of anything.

 

Let's talk about quotes.

 

Rob Bell:

I think the first time I used a quote that I remember was in, here we go, Jono, right back at you, in my head boy speech at the end of...

 

Oh yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Yeah, very good.

 

Rob Bell:

So.

 

Jono Hey:

You still remember it?

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, it was when my dad gave me, actually.

 

It was about lies, damn lies and statistics.

 

So there are three types of lies, lies, damned lies and statistics.

 

It often gets credited to Mark Twain, but I think it's actually ex-British prime minister, Benjamin Disraeli quote.

 

Jono Hey:

To be fair, pretty much everything gets credited to Mark Twain.

 

Rob Bell:

Okay, yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, it's fairly standard.

 

He said a lot of things, but there's a lot of things.

 

I think there was a whole book, which is like things Mark Twain didn't say.

 

Which are very good.

 

They're all very good things, but he didn't say them.

 

Tom Pellereau:

He didn't say them, but lots of people think he did.

 

Jono Hey:

You know, I read one about statistics the other day, and I wrote it down.

 

It's the most recent quote that I've saved, which is, it's easy to lie with statistics, and it's easier to lie without them, which is Frederick Mostella.

 

Rob Bell:

There you go, along the same theme.

 

Statisticians, eh?

 

Jono Hey:

I collected a couple, because you asked me about quotes.

 

Rob Bell:

I did.

 

Jono Hey:

And so, I mean, I do have a lot of quotes, which I sort of built into sketches, because they're kind of like wisdom in a really like nice pithy format.

 

One of them is not really a quote, but I like it.

 

I think it was from a Nike ad, actually.

 

It was, somewhere, right now, someone busier than you is out running.

 

Rob Bell:

Nice.

 

Oh, that's good.

 

Oh, I do like that.

 

Tom Pellereau:

That's pretty hard.

 

Jono Hey:

Probably my favorite.

 

Rob Bell:

It's a bit longer.

 

Tom Pellereau:

We could do an hour show.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, this is it, because when you do go, if you go through the collection of Sketchplanations, there are, I didn't look, actually, but there's probably a good 20 that are based on quotes.

 

Jono, is that right?

 

I'd say.

 

Jono Hey:

There might be.

 

I haven't done that Nike ad, nor have I done this one, which is from Hugh Laurie.

 

Rob Bell:

Oh, great.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah.

 

Which is sort of unusual for Hugh Laurie, perhaps, but it goes, it's a terrible thing, I think, in life to wait until you're ready.

 

I have this feeling now that actually no one is ever ready to do anything.

 

There's almost no such thing as ready.

 

There's only now.

 

And you may as well do it now.

 

Generally speaking, now is as good a time as any.

 

Rob Bell:

That's lovely.

 

That's lovely from a lovely man.

 

Jono Hey:

Isn't that good?

 

It's good quote, wisdom to live by, I think that one.

 

Rob Bell:

It really is.

 

Thing is, you can, now with the internet, you can just type in a theme and ask it for quotes, and it will come up with all sorts, right?

 

It's very easy to, it's very easy to find a quote about anything, really.

 

Tom Pellereau:

From Mark Twain or otherwise.

 

Rob Bell:

Or otherwise.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Now, so I've got one that I actually don't know who the quote is from.

 

I think I listened to it in a podcast, and I quite like this one that, if you can't solve the problem, you're probably trying to solve the wrong problem.

 

There's an example with seat belts in the fact that Mercedes spent millions trying to develop better seat belts in the car.

 

And then someone else completely outside cars invented the airbag, which is a way better way of protecting someone in a crash.

 

And Mercedes and loads of others ended up having to license the airbag.

 

Jono Hey:

It's really good.

 

I don't know if I mentioned, but my PhD.

 

Rob Bell:

Oh yeah, yeah, go on.

 

Jono Hey:

Was on framing in design and framing your design problem.

 

That's a really good example, actually.

 

I wish I'd known that before, of reframing your problem there.

 

It's really good.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, I have one on the wall, just in front of me here now, and it's...

 

Tom Pellereau:

Is it next to your head boy certificate?

 

Or your first class honor certificate?

 

Rob Bell:

Didn't get first class, mate.

 

Don't rub it in.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It's next to his marathon medal.

 

Rob Bell:

Thanks, Julie, yeah, yeah.

 

No, so this one says, hold it, fellas, hold it, fellas.

 

I'm afraid you're just too darn loud.

 

And that is from Back to the Future.

 

So there you go, I don't know, I'm not gonna read anything into it.

 

Jono Hey:

It's just good, takes you back.

 

Rob Bell:

Either you know it or you don't.

 

But yes, I thought there might be some mileage in quotes, because knowing you two, I feel that quotes are probably quite a large part of how you enjoy communicating at times.

 

When are people gonna start quoting you boys?

 

When's that gonna happen?

 

Tom Pellereau:

Are there any Jono Hey quotes in amongst the Sketchplanations?

 

Rob Bell:

I'm trying to think.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Or Rob Bell ones.

 

Jono Hey:

I've written a lot of stuff, so if you see anything you like, feel free to quote me.

 

Rob Bell:

But do credit Jono Hey.

 

Jono Hey:

Just make sure you credit him.

 

Rob Bell:

Please, please do.

 

All right then, well listen, to motivate us into this week's episode, I'd like to end on one final quote.

 

It's a quote from British superstar actress Keira Knightley.

 

And one I think will probably resonate with you two chaps, and a lot of people listening as well.

 

She said, it's not every day you get to do a pirate movie.

 

You might as well go for it.

 

Thanks Keira.

 

So let's batten down the hatches, splice the main brace and set sail.

 

Here's the podcast.

 

This week, we've selected the sketch entitled Five Ways to Wellbeing.

 

And it's based on a large amount of research that's been condensed into a very simple framework to try and improve mental capacity and mental well-being.

 

It was developed by a UK-based think tank called the New Economics Foundation.

 

And Jono's sketch for this framework, in my view anyway, beautifully depicts those five ways to well-being in one very engaging scene.

 

And you should be able to see that sketch on your screens now for this episode.

 

But if not, you can check it out at sketchplanations.com.

 

And the link for that is included in this episode description.

 

Whilst I'm at it, I'll bung in a bit more podcast admin to say a huge thank you once again for all your correspondence on last week's quick fire episode.

 

We'll be going through some of your messages as usual at the very end of this podcast.

 

And if you'd like to get in touch about the podcast generally or any of the topics we've covered so far, you can email us, Tommy.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Hello at sketchplanations.com.

 

Rob Bell:

Right, now this episode is a first for us because this week we've invited an expert guest to come and contribute to our discussion.

 

Nancy Hey is currently the Executive Director for the What Works Centre for Wellbeing, the UK's national body for wellbeing evidence and practise aiming to understand what governments, business, communities and people can do to improve wellbeing.

 

Prior to that, she's worked in the UK Civil Service for nine different departments.

 

A lot of that integrating wellbeing into public policy.

 

And in her spare time, Nancy is also Jono's sister.

 

Nancy, hello, welcome to the podcast.

 

Thank you so much for coming on.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Thanks for having me.

 

Nancy Hey:

It's brilliant to be here chatting to you guys again.

 

Rob Bell:

You know all of us, right?

 

You know, we've all met and hung out loads of times over the years.

 

Once or twice.

 

But we've never, I don't think, I've never had an online chat with you, Nancy.

 

So you know, this is different.

 

Nancy Hey:

Yeah, it is.

 

And actually, I don't think I've seen Tom for years.

 

So it's fantastic to chat with you all.

 

Tom Pellereau:

It has been a very long time.

 

Rob Bell:

So usually, I throw to Jono at this point to explain what this week's Sketch is all about.

 

But I think we'll come back to that in a minute.

 

Before we get into the detail of the Sketch and the five ways to wellbeing, can we first talk a little bit about wellbeing generally and where your obvious passion for it and your passion for integrating it as far and as wide as possible, where that comes from?

 

Nancy Hey:

So I got really frustrated with working in policymaking and in workplaces where she was so detached from people's real lives and the experience of it.

 

And I got quite cross.

 

So I tried to work out how you could actually fix it.

 

And that's what took me to the wellbeing thing.

 

But also so much of the wellbeing thing is often about courses or someone who wants to train you in doing stuff.

 

And I was like, this is great, really interesting.

 

How do you make that more common in everyday life?

 

How do you make it a thing that people do?

 

And how do we build what it is that we want to happen, not just the things that, just getting rid of the things that we don't want to happen?

 

So the wellbeing thing is about the personal wellbeing bit is like feeling good and functioning well.

 

And it's made up of the sort of yourself and all the things that are in you, both mentally and physically, and what you've like the context you're in and the external circumstances you're in.

 

And they interact with each other.

 

And so it can feel quite complicated.

 

It can feel like everything and nothing, but there are some real practical things.

 

And I really wanted to make that practical.

 

There's also a whole national context to it as well, which is how we're doing as individuals, communities and as a nation and how sustainable that is for the future.

 

And that's like taking it to a whole other level, but we're talking about personal wellbeing today.

 

Rob Bell:

We are, we are.

 

And that's a really good differentiation, I think, Nancy.

 

And I think where my mind has led is how individual wellbeing does contribute nationally, possibly even globally as well.

 

Nancy Hey:

Yeah, definitely.

 

You can't, you're not an island.

 

You are interconnected.

 

And that's what makes it quite confusing.

 

Like where do you start?

 

When you start pulling one bit of string, it's all connected.

 

So trying to make that practical and sensible and a conversation, it's kind of always yes and with wellbeing, which is quite frustrating, but you can still make it practical and actionable.

 

Jono Hey:

Can I just say that I love that we have my sister on the podcast.

 

And when we were talking about doing this sketch, this Five Ways to Wellbeing, it's so cool that the most qualified and knowledgeable person that we can think of to talk about wellbeing happens to be my sister.

 

So hopefully you can see that already.

 

It's really cool.

 

Rob Bell:

It's really nice to chat to someone who really knows what they're talking about.

 

Jono Hey:

This is not what we talk about all the time in family gatherings either.

 

It's usually about, did you bring the sausages or something?

 

Rob Bell:

Okay, so let's focus that.

 

That's Jono's voice back in.

 

Let's focus on the sketch for a minute, Jono.

 

What was it about this, the framework of the five ways to wellbeing that caught your attention?

 

Why were you inspired to do this sketch?

 

Jono Hey:

I'm sure Nancy, I'm sure you shared this framework with me, either directly for a sketch or just in general, like with the family.

 

And it's just such a lovely, clear framework.

 

I feel like it's easy to have wellbeing as this sort of vague thing, which is quite hard to put your finger on.

 

And what's so nice about, I think about the five ways to wellbeing is it's just, it's only five and you can remember them and you can see them.

 

They're very visual and very tangible, the things that connect, be active, take notice, keep learning, give, as I'm sure we'll get to.

 

And I remember thinking, I've done some sketches where, you could do five separate things, but I just thought it might be nice to see, could you put all of this in just one visual?

 

Actually, I haven't done many like this, where it's a bigger sketch than normal.

 

And I've just tried to sort of put it all in there at once.

 

And it's quite nice.

 

It doesn't really have any writing, does it?

 

It's like, just like let the picture do the talking.

 

This is all you need.

 

Five ways to build.

 

You can go read the thing, but you don't need to read the thing because you can kind of see it all there.

 

That was the idea.

 

Rob Bell:

I think it's brilliant.

 

And for those of you looking at it, you will see that it's this scene in a park and there's lots of lovely things going on.

 

Yeah, so before we get into those five different ways, this was all based on quite an extensive amount of research, wasn't it, Nancy?

 

I think that's quite important to mention before we get into it.

 

Nancy Hey:

Yeah, so it sounds really simple.

 

And although it's not a direct line from the research, it is built entirely on this Government Office for Science report in 2008.

 

And it's a foresight report onto mental capital.

 

And these reports are ways of bringing together knowledge of foresight, so the cutting edge of where the science was in 2008.

 

And this one was a, I mean, there's a whole series of them, but this particular one in 2008 was a massive landmark product that everybody was so inspired by.

 

And the Five Ways to Wellbeing came out of that as a way of describing practical actions, the things that you could do as a result of it.

 

And I think if anything, the evidence for these Five Ways has increased since 2008, each of them individually and more broadly around mental capital.

 

It's an area that was such a part of the foresight.

 

It's absolutely grown globally.

 

It's really a fascinating field to be in.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Jono's sketches are often very good, but this is a really sort of, this could easily be a kind of government international advertising campaign poster.

 

And it's certainly the kind of thing we should have up on your wall to remind you of the different areas.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, that's what I went to ask you about before we got into it, Tommy, about how conscious you are as the leader of a group of people within your company.

 

How easy is it to be conscious of your team's wellbeing day to day?

 

Tom Pellereau:

So possibly one of the biggest things as the leaders often forget, I think, and certainly I do, is how much of an effect your personal wellbeing can have on everybody else.

 

And how it's really, really important to put yourself in a good place when you're a leader.

 

And if you're not, to get yourself back in a good place or just not allow that to percolate through.

 

And even if you sort of try and hide it, often it's not possible to hide.

 

Rob Bell:

All right, well, let's dig down into the five ways of well-being, shall we?

 

Number one.

 

Da-dum, da-dum, da-dum, da-dum, da-dum, da-dum.

 

So I should be good.

 

That's the start of number five, isn't it?

 

So the first theme is connect, where we're advised to proactively connect with the people around us, our family, our friends, our colleagues or neighbours, which on the face of it, I guess, seems a very, very sensible and social thing to do.

 

But what are the specific positive effects of connecting with others for our general wellbeing, Nancy?

 

Nancy Hey:

It actually matters at a sort of really physical level to our bodies, though we sort of, we notice other people, but it matters because if you look at the real building blocks of mental wellbeing, which is what we're talking about here quite specifically, mental wellbeing, you've got feeling positively about yourself and feeling cheerful, so literally feeling happy.

 

And both of those key components are driven by feeling close to other people.

 

And so not only does it matter in and of itself, it's a massive driver of everything else, whether that's at work, family, friends, neighbors, all of it matters.

 

And I think the other thing is to say is that hell can also be other people, right?

 

So some of the biggest challenges we get are through our connections.

 

And so you need to top yourself.

 

They really matter.

 

Jono Hey:

I was thinking of this because it's easy to think of connect.

 

Like you have to be with loads of people, but it's not necessarily that, right?

 

I was thinking about like introverts and extroverts and where you, how you recharge, and you can recharge just as much with a really good conversation with a close friend as other people might recharge, going to a party or going to a bar, right?

 

And seeing lots of people.

 

Nancy Hey:

It is true, but there's different levels.

 

So there's sort of your close and immediate friends, and some of us get more than that, and that meaningful relationships really matter.

 

So caring about other people and them caring about you.

 

Then there's the looser connections that you have.

 

So sort of the nod to the neighbor as you put the bins out, or the colleague you just sort of pass at sort of the coffee point as well.

 

So those are looser social connections.

 

So every moment, small, positive social interaction builds relationship, builds trust, and they all matter.

 

And because you don't notice the positive things as much as you notice the negative things, you really need to top up these positive social connections.

 

And that builds trust, it builds relationship.

 

And we need that bigger level of trust at a societal level, as a community level as well.

 

So, and it's the thing that, if we notice during the pandemic, it's the thing that kept us going, that sort of peer support and the helping other people, that sort of connection.

 

The other one was really surprising was the radio.

 

So radio was a really positive support of social connections.

 

Which is why I love the podcasts actually, because that was a way of connecting and feeling connected to other people that was totally possible to do whilst we were isolated.

 

And for some people, it's a core bit of how they connect with the world every day.

 

Rob Bell:

It's very much that individual want and need for connection, isn't it?

 

And we're all different in that sense.

 

And I guess there's no set rule in terms of how much and how deep a connection you need to have.

 

Nancy Hey:

That chatting in the community context matters, even if you're really lonely, it can protect you from feeling.

 

If you're feeling lonely, you haven't got those personal connections.

 

Those loose connections really help protect and buffer for you from that.

 

What's interesting is it in the UK, we're quite low on connect, particularly for 25 to 64 year olds.

 

We're not so good at it.

 

Rob Bell:

So as part of the research here, we've got comparisons with the UK and other countries globally or Europe?

 

Across Europe, yeah.

 

Across Europe, okay.

 

What was that?

 

We're quite low in the UK on connect.

 

Nancy Hey:

So we're not as good at connect.

 

Yeah, generally and particularly between the ages of 25 and 64.

 

And it's not particularly necessarily because we're working more than other people, although that is true.

 

So there is something British here about connect that we're not quite doing.

 

We can improve.

 

Jono Hey:

I don't know if this fits into connect, but I was thinking about watching sports and whether that is a part of it.

 

But there's a few bits of it.

 

Like one is, you know, go into a stadium and just be in with 10,000 other people with the same sort of purpose, but also like the people that you go with, the chat before the game, all that stuff.

 

I was wondering, yeah, whether watching sports plays a big part in connect in some way.

 

Nancy Hey:

Yeah, I really love these ones.

 

So it's almost a positive social connection.

 

And that's exactly what happens when you're doing something enjoyable together.

 

So it's that little comment to the guy that you always see when you go to the football, like the little nods when you sort of see, oh God, they brought that player on again, or whatever, those sort of connections that you have throughout it.

 

So yeah, those shared, interested, fun, ideally activities really do make a difference.

 

And actually the other really clever thing about these sorts of communities is that often they can be people who are quite different from yourself.

 

And that sort of, so you start to get to know somebody in a very different context, maybe you support the same team, but actually you've built that relationship even when you haven't necessarily got a particularly, maybe you work in completely different industries or you don't work at all, and those connections can come, particularly intergenerationally, for example.

 

Rob Bell:

One area where I think I get that is with my physical neighbours.

 

We just happen to live on the same street and it's really lovely, completely different jobs, completely different ages.

 

It's brilliant, I love it.

 

And there's the sense of community and you're all moaning about the same stuff that the council's not doing for you.

 

Nancy Hey:

All the weather, yeah, it's classic.

 

Rob Bell:

All the weather, yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

You mentioned the pandemic, Nancy, and I feel like of all of these, perhaps Connect might have been affected the most.

 

There was stuff going on with our neighbours here, which was great for us and we had a family, but not everybody like colleagues at work, it was just them for two years in a room with some housemates they didn't really know very well.

 

I was just wondering how the pandemic affected that.

 

Nancy Hey:

Yeah, so it's really interesting one.

 

So it did weird stuff.

 

One of the biggest coping mechanisms was connecting with family and friends, online and in person.

 

And you'll notice that when you had meetings or something online during a pandemic, you'd spend half the meeting just chatting through the experience of the pandemic.

 

And you certainly were online all the time in those meetings and sort of processing it.

 

And that's that version of connection that we all had.

 

So it didn't affect loneliness, certainly not as immediately as I expected it to.

 

But we do now have probably half a million more people who were chronically lonely in the UK as a result of the pandemic.

 

So this is people who say they're often or always lonely.

 

And that is a real worry because if it becomes entrenched, there are other knock on effects to health and work and other things as well.

 

And the sort of things you start, there's really great sort of thinking on friendship about how long it takes sort of over nine months to rebuild, to move from acquaintance to friends and back again.

 

And so if you think about it, we probably moved a lot of things.

 

We've got to know some people really closely and then a whole load of friends sort of drifted out into that acquaintance section and how do we bring them back again?

 

It's the challenge.

 

It just takes time and repeated meetings.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, repeated connections.

 

Yeah, great.

 

Okay, let's move on to number two, which was be active, which in my mind at least is probably the most well known, at least the most well talked about aspect of mental wellbeing, I'd say, is how strong that tie is to your physical wellbeing.

 

Is that what we're talking about here?

 

Nancy Hey:

Yeah, we are.

 

And it's interesting that you say it's obvious.

 

So men are more likely to participate in this one than women.

 

Women are more likely to connect and give and men are more likely to be active.

 

And that's quite a typical pattern that we see.

 

And also one of the things I think this has slipped off the radar a bit in terms of mental wellbeing recently.

 

People think of the things that really want their future as a job and money and mental health.

 

And they often forget about this physical health one and physical activity.

 

And it's one of the big impacts of the pandemic actually is the big, big, big drop in physical activity.

 

But it is the one that often people equate most with wellness and wellbeing, yes.

 

Jono Hey:

Something that we did was an initiative from a really good friend of ours, who basically said, look, we don't see each other as much as we used to and as much as we'd like to, and none of us are working out as much as we mean to and should do.

 

So let's get together and work out together.

 

And so we started a club where we meet up, we met up in a park every Tuesday night, and it went on for 10 years, actually 10 years, pretty much every Tuesday night.

 

I think it was the pandemic that finally killed it.

 

And it was amazing because genuinely it was amazing.

 

And the format was really simple.

 

So I think everybody, if you're wondering about this and you have those same problems, you should try this.

 

The format is that you just rotate who leads the workout session.

 

So if you've got six people, you do one every six weeks.

 

And what it meant was that we saw some of our best friends once a week, every week for nearly 10 years.

 

And we stayed in shape.

 

And I just feel like it was such a mega win.

 

And it's such a simple format that anybody can do.

 

Tom Pellereau:

And some of the most unique exercises you will ever, ever see.

 

Rob, I seem to remember you brought almost an entire piano once.

 

Just one of the most incredible games.

 

Rob Bell:

So, I mean, not all of them were actually that good for your physical wellbeing.

 

Jono Hey:

There's one with eggs, I remember.

 

Rob Bell:

At least we were connecting as well at some time.

 

Nancy Hey:

Having fun.

 

Rob Bell:

Absolutely.

 

Nancy Hey:

And actually, just getting together with other people is a great idea for exercise outdoors with other people.

 

Always a winner.

 

It does matter that you enjoy it actually as well.

 

So a lot of the benefit of exercise is because you enjoy it.

 

So that's great for those that enjoy it.

 

And they also get these other benefits for mental and physical health and the social health that you've described as well.

 

So confidence, happiness, relaxation, all those sorts of things.

 

But for those of you don't like exercise, it is what we would call an experience good.

 

So you need a nudge towards it and choosing something that you, finding something you like and that you do matters more than anything else.

 

So any is better than none in terms of physical exercise.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Nancy, you mentioned something there which confused me that people are not doing as much exercise post-pandemic.

 

But I thought we all bought thousands of pounds worth of equipment and sports gear and tops and all that sort of stuff during the pandemic that we all have no excuse not to do exercise now.

 

Nancy Hey:

I think for some people, they did a lot of exercise and it was one of the things.

 

And gardening actually was one of the weirdly popular, very effective things during the pandemic.

 

But if you didn't do that, and a lot of people didn't do that because it wasn't no longer part of their daily life, it did make a big difference.

 

And I think that will be a long tail from the pandemic, yeah.

 

Jono Hey:

One of the things I remember really struck by, particularly mostly in Vietnam, was this national culture of getting together at like 5 a.m.

 

in the morning on a street corner and doing Tai Chi or equivalent.

 

And it was just fabulous.

 

They'd just be, literally it was a street corner.

 

They'd be like one person who's sort of leading the exercises and people would just pop up and stand wherever that they could see the person and just be following these exercises.

 

Just thought it was a lovely thing.

 

And everybody was up early, just getting a little bit of exercise, a little bit of calm meditation.

 

You're doing this with people.

 

It just seemed like a fabulous thing, which I don't know, in the UK was it.

 

You have to be doing a boot camp and doing 50 burpees instead.

 

You know, it was such a different thing to being doing some quiet, mindful Tai Chi together.

 

Nancy Hey:

I think the weather affects it as well.

 

Someone suggested the best way to get people to exercise is to put a roof on the UK.

 

Rob Bell:

It works at Wimbledon.

 

Jono Hey:

It would make a difference.

 

Rob Bell:

So we're talking here about our physical health having a positive effect on our mental wellbeing.

 

Does it work the other way around?

 

Is that reciprocal as well?

 

Nancy Hey:

Probably, yes.

 

So when you do exercise, you feel happier and more purposeful at the time you do it and just after.

 

And then it contributes to your physical health and that physical health is one of the biggest drivers of overall life satisfaction.

 

It's the thing that also helps us be resilient to life events.

 

I think one of the challenges is, is that when people think of wellbeing or mental health as only being about physical fitness or that's the only way they get their mental wellbeing, then you've got a challenge.

 

There's other things that also matter too.

 

And there can be some downsides of physical activity, sort of injury, perfectionism, pressure to perform and other types of things as well.

 

But on balance, being physical active is such a good thing.

 

I think if it was a pill, they'd prescribe it.

 

Rob Bell:

Well, let's get on to number three in the five ways to wellbeing, which is take notice.

 

And now, well, as I said, in my mind alone, number two about being active was probably the most obvious.

 

This was probably the least obvious to me, but it's probably the one that I like the most because the thought of being more conscious to do it more often, I get excited about that, I think, but it does feel slightly less tangible than the others maybe.

 

Nancy Hey:

Yeah, I think this is a really interesting one.

 

I think the evidence in many ways has probably grown more in this area than some of the others over the last 15 years.

 

And so take notice was often quite a shorthand for mindfulness possibly, so sort of awareness and attention, paying attention to your surroundings.

 

There is quite a lot of science of attention now, and in fact, our attention is at a premium and it's used in lots of different ways.

 

But it's partly about sort of noticing and appreciating what's around you.

 

That thing I said about sort of, we notice the negative things more than the positive things.

 

We sort of actively need to notice the positive things, things like beauty, things like anything that's of interest is then meaningful to you.

 

Sort of enjoying the moment, really taking time to notice it and being part of that something bigger than yourself.

 

So there's a whole load of things in that take notice bucket, but you're right to say that it isn't the most obvious for us.

 

So we're quite low on this in the UK, particularly compared to say France and Germany, for example.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I'm very interested by the participation in Five Ways by Age of Category showing that take notice, you're kind of at your lowest in your kind of early forties, late thirties, and it then sort of starts really shooting up the graph and having been one of the lowest when you get sort of plus 65, it's one of the sort of the highest.

 

Jono Hey:

One of the places we lived in the states was a little block with four small apartments and the one above us, there was a little old lady who'd lived there for 30, 40 years.

 

And we lived on this, it was a normal street, normal houses all the way down and they had lovely trees, like maples, that in the fall, the leaves would turn a lovely colour.

 

And so often, we'd be coming back, it's a busy day, whatever, and there's lots of traffic around, everybody's just got back from their commute.

 

And she'd just be like going super slowly because she was old.

 

And she'd be like bending down and she'd be picking up one of these leaves.

 

And they turned the beautiful like burgundies and oranges and yellows in the fall.

 

And you'd see she just have like three leaves in her hand.

 

I don't know, she might have taken like 30 minutes to walk the 20 meters or something, but she had this beautiful collection of leaves.

 

It struck me as such an example of like taking notice.

 

Rob Bell:

I'm assuming there's a certain amount of taking note, Jono, within the artwork that you do within the illustrations, the sketches.

 

Jono Hey:

Yeah, it's a beautiful facet of doing art is that it forces you to notice stuff really carefully.

 

And you know, you look at the wall and there's like two different shades of blue and you're like, okay, could I pick out that shade of blue?

 

And it's funny how like with perspective that that is actually the same size as that is it if I really do it.

 

And the shadow there is dark.

 

I would have done it gray, but it's actually dark green.

 

So yeah, absolutely.

 

Rob Bell:

I think it's great.

 

Is that something that comes up, Nancy, along under this heading, kind of art being creative using your hands?

 

Nancy Hey:

Yeah, so we look at creativity and culture and arts.

 

And actually one of the reasons I'm on the board of what's called the National Centre of Creative Health and for exactly this reason.

 

So it's a way to do all of what Jono has described in a, not just doing a course or learning about how to be well, actually doing it in practice.

 

And it's very common way of dealing with people, intervention of people with mental illness because it's a happy thing to do as well, usually.

 

So yes, art's a fantastic way to take notice.

 

And actually it takes me to the children's one slightly, which is in the children's one, they have be creative and play instead of give.

 

There's no reason why that isn't true of adults or vice versa.

 

It's just that you needed five ways to well-being that were on your hand, right?

 

But be creative and play is another way of describing some of these things that happen.

 

So human and really, really good for our mental health.

 

Rob Bell:

So at the base of this is some of it about getting out of what I've heard called as self mode.

 

Nancy Hey:

I think it can sometimes get you out of your head if that's kind of like, if you're ruminating or really overthinking something, it does take you back and connect you with the real world.

 

And actually it's one of the reasons why when I'm doing art or something, I don't like to do it on the computer because I spend all my day on there.

 

I like to do it physically.

 

Like making things with your hands and doing something.

 

I think you do woodwork type things.

 

That type of thing is a really good way to get you out of your head and into your body.

 

But I think one of the things that Tom probably just touched on this really, if you're a two year old and you're totally absorbed in your world, it can take you four times as long to get to where you need to be because you're spotting every bug and every link.

 

And that's totally in the moment and totally in self mode.

 

But it is the opposite of being connected to what else needs to happen in the world.

 

So there's probably two ways of thinking about that.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, there's a friend of mine who I had a chat with him not too long ago, actually.

 

And he was saying that amongst his friends, those who are probably the least happy were typically the people who were less busy than he was, because he's a very happy chappy, and that maybe they had too much time on their hands to be thinking about themselves in their own lives.

 

So yeah, being in their own heads a bit too much.

 

Nancy Hey:

There's a wonderful optimal time use stuff as well.

 

If you read Happy Hour by Cassie Farms, she's looked at the American time use data, and it's like a peak busyness and a peak leisure time that is around as well.

 

So yeah, being too busy is not good, obviously, but being too unbusy is also not good as well.

 

Rob Bell:

As with everything, it's a bit of a balance, isn't there?

 

Jono Hey:

Just point out, Rob, I thought it was really interesting that you sometimes might need a prompt to take notice, and that this might not be as completely obvious.

 

And one of my favorite sketches is a quote, which is from Kurt Vonnegut.

 

It's actually from his uncle, but he quoted a lot in some of the speeches he did, which was just to notice when you're happy.

 

And he says, if you're in a nice moment, and you're just looking around and you're like, this is really nice, just stop everybody and say out loud, if this isn't nice, I don't know what is.

 

And I think that is taking notice.

 

And as you said, we noticed the negative bits more than the positive.

 

And that's actually an explicit like reminder and instruction to go, you know what, when things are really good right now, we should take notice.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

So I wonder if there are ways to prompt ourselves to take notice more, if it's not something that we consciously do.

 

Nancy Hey:

Yeah, there's lots of cool little ways to do this.

 

I think there's apps that help you do it and all sorts of things you can build it into your day.

 

So Paul Dolan's happiness by design is a way of thinking about how you can build this into your day.

 

So you just notice it more.

 

So it just happens naturally.

 

Rob Bell:

Lovely.

 

Good.

 

Well, let's keep moving and get on to the fourth, which is keep learning.

 

I mean, that's a pretty obvious one, that, isn't it?

 

And Jono, so you mentioned that in the sketch, I think, have you got a couple of things about keep learning here, or is it just the guy doing a painting that you've used to represent keep learning?

 

Jono Hey:

Somebody comfortably sat on a bench reading a book.

 

Or say learning.

 

Rob Bell:

So I was wondering how this relates to our kind of formal education system, and if there's a tendency for people's propensity to keep learning, dropping off, the further away they get from that formal education that we all get at the beginning of our lives.

 

Nancy Hey:

Yeah, it's really interesting.

 

I think in the workplace, very often there is quite good evidence that older workers are overlooked for learning or don't feel that there is capacity to develop.

 

So I think there is something sort of institutional about it.

 

We think we've done our learning now, this is our career, then we sort of stop, and people get stuck, actually.

 

And then they need sort of how do they branch out?

 

So always being able to find something interesting and that you can learn is a really good skill for life.

 

It's called metacognition.

 

But learning, I love, and there's other sketches that relate to this concept, actually, that's what it's trying to get at here, is this idea of flow, of mastery, of having interest in something and meaning.

 

And learning doesn't always actually feel good, actually, at the time, it can be quite hard.

 

Again, that types of fun podcast here is probably quite relevant.

 

So that learning pit in the middle, I think, is also true.

 

So learning how to sort of take, learning how to learn is a skill.

 

And often smart people don't always come out with that.

 

If you've always found it easy to learn, if you've always found it easy to knock out the exams without having to put a huge amount of effort in, well done, you.

 

But actually that can make you avoid learning because it doesn't feel very nice when you've got to try a bit hard.

 

So yeah, this one is, this is great, this one.

 

This is about having interest in stuff, sort of flow and mastery.

 

Computer games are like completely designed to be perfect at getting you flowing.

 

Tom Pellereau:

So they sort of up the ante, so it's not too difficult at the beginning and it kind of gradually gets hard.

 

Is that, because that's often the thing about sort of learning as you get older, like I'd love to learn French, I'd love to learn to play the guitar, I'd love to learn to play the piano.

 

And it's just that learning takes a huge amount of time and it's not easy on many of these sort of things.

 

Nancy Hey:

Yeah, I think this is one of the reasons why some companies have like a 10% learning time for yourself because they realize that that gives you sort of autonomy, control, interest, and it keeps you moving.

 

And actually, we do see quite a big boost on sort of culture and leisure learning, particularly for those who've got particularly low well-being.

 

Culture and leisure learning can be really, really impactful as well as the workplace learning too.

 

Rob Bell:

What's culture and leisure learning?

 

So would culture be like languages, cooking, art?

 

Nancy Hey:

Basically anything that isn't work.

 

Culture and leisure, we understand it really broadly, but something that is interesting to you that is, I mean, like arts or all of these sorts of things.

 

But the internet is just absolutely brilliant at this, right?

 

You can find an expert or learn from an expert on so many different people, and it has huge potential.

 

Learning that the joy is in the process as well.

 

And so I've deliberately tried to teach myself art, and with the entire goal of not being actually any particularly good at it, but just to enjoy it.

 

And always having something at work that I'm learning about, whether that's a concept I need to understand a bit more or something like that.

 

Rob Bell:

So that sense of achievement and learning, they are related, but they are quite different when it comes to mental wellbeing.

 

Nancy Hey:

It's like the holiday, part of the joy of booking a holiday is in the build up to it, the researching about the place and a lot.

 

And what happened in the pandemic is we kind of couldn't do that.

 

So it was like a collective sense of anhedonia, which is this loss of happiness that we're looking forward to because you couldn't trust that it was going to happen as well.

 

So you're learning to enjoy the process and not always being happy because it's not always, there's lots of positive emotions and they're not all about, yay, brilliant.

 

Oh, this is interesting.

 

Oh, God, this is hard.

 

Oh, wow.

 

Okay, I found my way through that curiosity.

 

Tom Pellereau:

But how do you go about kind of, because you understand this stuff, right?

 

And you've been aware of it for a long time.

 

So I try to structure my exercise, but I don't try to kind of book in my learning time.

 

And I definitely book in seeing friends.

 

Nancy Hey:

Yeah.

 

And actually, I think this is quite interesting.

 

So in midlife, your time is quite compressed.

 

You're working, you've got family, all these sorts of things.

 

And that's one of the reasons for the midlife crisis, is you're doing lots of things you have to do and not necessarily all the fun things.

 

And sometimes things like your fitness or your learning can drop off as a result.

 

How do I structure in learning?

 

At work, everybody has a learning goal that they're trying to improve on that quarter.

 

And I have one for the year.

 

And then we all do learning together as a team once a month.

 

People are sharing learning that they've done with the team.

 

And that's particularly effective because that consolidates your learning when you explain it to somebody else.

 

That's a really, really helpful way of learning.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Jono, I won't ask you that.

 

You are always learning about eight or nine different things.

 

Jono Hey:

I'm still stuck on the video games are so good.

 

And you're absolutely right.

 

If Nintendo made piano their game, it would be so much more fun to learn the piano and people wouldn't get stuck.

 

If Nintendo did tennis courts, you wouldn't have five-year-olds trying to whack the ball on the other side and the ball's too hard and the net's too high and the racket's too heavy.

 

It would all just be perfect and fun, and you'd be on level three and then level four.

 

Tom Pellereau:

I've long wanted to bring out a range of sports equipment that makes games into computer games.

 

You're on a tennis court.

 

Why aren't there things that when you hit it, it buzzes or it flashes or it counts up your score?

 

Just stuff that makes sports more fun.

 

Rob Bell:

All right, let's move on to the fifth and final way to well-being, which is, we've mentioned it a couple of times, give.

 

Pure and simply, is this altruism?

 

Nancy Hey:

Yeah, frankly, it's about helping other people.

 

And literally thinking about it as helping is probably the best way to think about it, really.

 

If you think about two of the things that really stand out for high well-being places and societies and communities and workplaces is peer support.

 

People help each other.

 

And so this is a really good one.

 

Interestingly, it has been dropped by some frameworks.

 

So one on NHS, one I saw recently had, be active, get good sleep, learn new skills, connect with new people and not give.

 

And that was because some of the feedback they had from the staff was that women tend to give and connect more than men.

 

And some people over give would be what I would say.

 

And they tend not to look off their own wellbeing.

 

But generally, giving and helping is a good thing and it feels good to do.

 

And it is good for the rest of the community as well.

 

Rob Bell:

Would we interpret this that everybody has that capacity to give?

 

And it definitely doesn't matter about your financial status or even how busy you are, everybody has that capacity.

 

Nancy Hey:

I think it's one of the things that's easiest to do in a workplace or somewhere else.

 

So if you're new, you can be part of it immediately if you can help.

 

And so it's a great work skill and a great thing to encourage in the workplace.

 

But generally, help around the house, help your team.

 

And the more formal aspects of that, things like volunteering, about being on a board, there's loads of more formal ones as well.

 

Jono Hey:

It's so nice, the small stuff here as well.

 

And actually, I think giving tends to help the giver as much as the receiver in many times.

 

And to go back to the quotes, there's a really nice quote I found, which is, you can always, always give something even if it's only kindness, which is from Anne Frank.

 

We had a really good friend when he'd come around our house for like, we'd invite him for a dinner or something, and he would bring like a really nice peach he got at the grocer's on the way over.

 

He'd be like, here's this lovely peach.

 

And it was such a lovely thing, because you take notice of this lovely peach, you connect him with a friend, and you know, he didn't spend a fortune or anything, he just bought a peach, but it was lovely, and we all shared it together, you know.

 

So I think it's really nice, the giving doesn't have to be this big thing.

 

Tom Pellereau:

Did you invite him back out of interest?

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, who is this guy?

 

I'm waiting around my house.

 

Jono Hey:

And he brought different fruit that was in season.

 

It was great.

 

Thank you, Dan.

 

Nancy Hey:

Potentially, the flip side of giving is obligation, where you feel you have to, and it can feel like a burden, and you can also feel obliged towards somebody else as well.

 

So someone's giving you something you feel bad, and that can cause tricky bits.

 

But on balance, giving and helping is generally a good thing for most people.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah.

 

Nancy Hey:

It's quite a tricky one.

 

This is quite nuanced, but basically helping out and caring about something that's bigger than yourself and helping make that happen is a really positive thing.

 

Your friends that organise that, the sports group that you did every week, organising that is a giving thing that you're doing for the collective endeavour.

 

So it's kind of an act of citizenship, I suppose, something bigger than yourself.

 

This is definitely one that gets you out of self-mode.

 

Rob Bell:

Yeah, there are some recurring themes through this, though, aren't there?

 

And I guess that's the point of it.

 

Nancy Hey:

Yeah, they should be mutually enforcing, yeah.

 

I love the sketch, actually, because it's all set in the park.

 

And actually, that is one of the ways that if you look at places that have more equal well-being in across the UK, they often have high engagement with their green space.

 

And that is why, because there are those things that are happening in that space.

 

Rob Bell:

Nancy, we've touched on this a couple of times talking through this, but are there general stats that come out of the research as to how the UK compares to other European nations in our ability to manage our well-being?

 

Nancy Hey:

So we do OK compared to lots of nations.

 

We're definitely top third of the table in many areas.

 

And that's partly because the context we live in is pretty good.

 

Our national stats have some brilliant ones, also with belonging and trust and getting on with our people as well and happy marriages and things like that.

 

But we're probably not top of the league when it comes to comparing across Europe.

 

But we're probably doing better than many American states, but not on all of them as well.

 

But I think that's something I'd love to look into.

 

There's a new module of the European Social Survey.

 

That's what excites me and keeps me learning that curiosity.

 

I'd love to dive into that bit more.

 

Rob Bell:

And by doing that, it's not just about comparing us, right?

 

It's about learning, seeing what we can take from other nations and how they manage to do so well in certain aspects.

 

Nancy Hey:

Yeah, so this example is that, and I've given a few as I've talked through, but in the UK, women, people with children or people who look over the house are a lot less likely to take notice than in other parts of Europe.

 

And that's really interesting to me, because young women's mental health is also really, really bad at the moment and going the wrong direction.

 

So there is something going on there that we haven't quite got right.

 

So the bit I'm interested in is, yes, obviously understanding this, but then I'm really interested in understanding what organisations in business, charities and government can do to improve lives, as well as just making this available generally so that people can make great choices.

 

Rob Bell:

Delving into all of these five different ways has definitely clarified a lot for me, because as we talked about at the beginning, wellbeing can be so large.

 

So to have it broken down into these ways, and of course there are other aspects that build in, but to have these five key elements to think about is really helpful.

 

Nancy Hey:

I just find them really practical.

 

I can remember them on my fingers, and they're really good.

 

I think the one that's really missing that people mention most to me is sleep.

 

That's interesting.

 

But obviously exercise and being active helps with sleep as well.

 

Rob Bell:

I can see Jono's face.

 

There's a sketch on that.

 

Jono Hey:

No, I was just thinking that it is getting rather late.

 

Rob Bell:

Nancy, what are you working on at the moment?

 

Anything interesting that we might see in our public domain?

 

Nancy Hey:

The UK has just revised its indicators of...

 

its UK measures of national wellbeing have just been revised and updated for the indicators changed for the first time in over 10 years.

 

So that came out last Wednesday.

 

Yeah, and we're about to start looking at creativity coming up as well.

 

That's quite exciting.

 

But yeah, there's loads happening.

 

Lots on loneliness as well.

 

Hopefully tackling that loneliness, particularly 500,000 extra people who are feeling more chronically lonely than before the pandemic.

 

Rob Bell:

Nancy, thank you so much for coming on.

 

It's been a real pleasure having you on.

 

Jono, I'm sure it's really nice for you as well to have been let off from being the relative expert on the podcast for once.

 

Jono Hey:

I was going to say, it's really nice to have the chance to hear from you on a professional basis.

 

You absolutely have an answer to every question.

 

I've got like 50 more things we could talk about, which obviously we won't because it's gone on really long and it's getting late, but it's so nice to hear all this knowledge and to share it and to be working on such a great mission.

 

Rob Bell:

Finally, listeners, if you'd like to explore more of the work that Nancy and her colleagues are involved in, you can head to whatworkswellbeing.org.

 

Don't forget, we'll be going through your correspondence from the last week in just a tick, but otherwise that's us for this week's topic, the five ways to well-being.

 

And believe me, there are thousands of different well-being quotes I could use to steer us out of this episode, but I'm pretty sure you've all seen the majority of them already, posted over the top of tranquil, faded seascapes on social media.

 

So instead, I'll just say, go well, stay well.

 

Cheers.

 

Goodbye.

 

Thanks.

 

Bye-bye.

 

All right, my lovelies, just me again, to go through the post bag this week.

 

I'm not going to do it all in that accent.

 

That's just silly.

 

What were we on?

 

Last week was our quick fire round on words and language and grammar, all that kind of stuff.

 

There was a whole host of different things in there, but words seemed like a fairly appropriate word to describe what we're going to be talking about.

 

Anyway, a few messages from you all to go through.

 

So we've had a message from Susan on Twitter who says, I am an amateur writer.

 

Now this refers to the discussion we had about Jono's sketch, explaining the difference between amateur and professional, but amateur in the true meaning of the word, which I really, really enjoyed understanding that.

 

So Susan is an amateur writer, a lover of writing.

 

But she goes on to say, and I'm with you, Rob.

 

It's the eyes.

 

It's the eyes.

 

Which refers to the chat I had with Tommy trying to explain how I am going to remember now the difference between compliment with an I and compliment with an E.

 

It's all in the eyes.

 

And a few people have talked to me about that conversation I had with him.

 

It still makes me laugh.

 

Moving on, we had a couple of messages about the chat.

 

We had covering pleonasms.

 

So we had an email from Sally who says, one of my worsties is two twins instead of a set of twins.

 

Two twins equals four people.

 

I agree.

 

Or just twins, you know, twins is two people.

 

A pair of twins, that again is four people.

 

I know what you mean, Sally.

 

And finally, a message from Rich saying, another one that, oh, another one that, I'm going to rephrase what Rich says, another one that annoys me is forward planning.

 

It's just planning.

 

I'm aware that I probably use pleonasms a lot, and I probably have done in the episode that you've just been talking about.

 

But at least now, I know about it, and I know what they're called.

 

Great.

 

Thank you very much for all of those.

 

Next week will be episode 16, and it's going to be our final episode in this series.

 

We're going to take a few weeks off just to refresh, but never fear, we'll be back in the autumn, ready to dive into more of Jono's sketches.

 

So I think what we'll do next week is a kind of, a little kind of roundup, highlight type podcast, with maybe a couple of relevant sketches thrown in there as well.

 

Something to look forward to, I'm sure.

 

Thank you all again for listening, and thank you for your correspondence.

 

Keep it coming in.

 

See you next week.

 

All music on this podcast series is sourced from the very talented Franc Cinelli.

 

And you can find loads more tracks at franccinelli.com.